As we play in Organized Play at higher and higher level Adventures, banes start to get rather nasty. Some of them end up forcing you to Banish cards if things don't go too well. Such a bad thing happened today in my group during Scenario 0-6B. Our Seoni player ended up on the receiving end of Crawling Cyclops Hands. He was lucky enough to only roll a single 1 on the dice and ended up banishing the Wand of Shield, a set indicator 1 item card in the Sorcerer deck. The character also ended up taking a weapon as his Card Feat for the scenario.
Now from what I remembered from the OP rules, I was pretty sure that you could only fill holes in your deck with Basic B cards in between scenarios. However, having just finished playing my solo home game run of the Skull & Shackles Adventure Path I remembered having to utilize this rule near the end of the game:
If you can’t construct a valid deck from the cards your group has available because you don’t have enough of certain card types, choose the extra cards you need from the box, choosing only cards with the Basic trait. After you begin the adventure Tempest Rising, you may ignore the Basic trait restriction; instead, you may use any cards in the box from the base set and the Character Add-On Deck, as well as any cards from an adventure whose adventure deck number is at least 2 lower than the adventure you’re currently playing.
This made me wonder if Organized Play has a similar rule, but this was all I found:
Regardless of the method used, after upgrading decks, each player must ensure that the cards in his character deck conform to the quantities specified in the Cards List on the back of his character card, filling any missing spots from his Class Deck box with appropriate cards that have the Basic trait.
Based on this it seems like no matter what, if you have an empty spot that you need to fill with a card in between scenarios, you have to fill the spot with a Basic card. Now, I notice that it just says "cards that have the Basic trait" and does not indicate them having to have the B set indicator. With the Sorcerer deck, there are no Basic cards that have a set indicator of anything but B. However, other class decks do, such as the Bard having a second Cure spell which is a set indicator 1 card with the Basic trait and the Cleric deck has a Conch Shell and an extra Blessing of the Gods which have set indicators of 1 and the Basic trait. So yeah, I think it should probably include that the set indicator also has to be a B for the card.
Anyway, that's a bit of a sidetrack. I am also curious as to what "appropriate cards" mean in the context of that line, but unless I missed something it pretty much seems like in Organized Play you do indeed have to fill any holes in your deck with Basic cards, which usually also means set indicator B cards. In the framework of Organized Play, this seems to be very punishing. You can typically only gain one chosen card upgrade at the end of each scenario. If you have to banish one or two cards at high adventure levels, or when you gain a new card feat at such a level, it seems a bit crummy to have to fill the spots with Basic cards. My sorcerer player already had his heart set on gaining a Spell 6 upgrade from a card he acquired during the scenario, but now he has a Dagger and Bracers of Protection in his deck at Adventure 6 and was pretty disappointed about that. I kind of agree. It seems really odd to me that characters are forced to take such low level cards at such high level Adventures.
I don't know if using the base set rules of filling slots with any card at least 2 set indicators lower than that of the scenario you just played is too overpowered for Organized Play since having empty slots is much more common in OP, but having to go all the way down to a Basic card, again, sounds way too punishing at higher levels. Would getting rid of the Basic restriction at Adventure 3 and being able to pick cards at least 3 set indicators lower during higher adventures be reasonable? Just throwing the idea out there.
There was some discussion about this back in October (along with some other rebuilding question) and Tanis said she was reviewing the guide to make sure that what being conveyed was what was meant but I don't recall hearing anything further about it after the fact (though I'm not very active in the OP forum so I could have missed something in another thread).
The basic gist was that the rules say on page 7 to fill holes using the starting character rules, which are similar the the standard game rules. The starting character rules say that if you are in deck 1 or 2 you use B Basic cards (Then B non-basic, then 1 Basic, then 1 non-basic, etc). If you are playing a deck higher than 1 or 2, then there are different rules for creating a starting deck. Option 1 is to use cards with a deck number at least 2 lower than your current deck, meaning that if you are in deck 3 you can get non-basic cards. If you are adding cards to fill holes later, can you still use option 1? I don't know that it was ever confirmed or denied. I would allow it if I was running the game.
Also the rule on page 8 often won't work. For example, if you are playing Flenta and she already has the only Basic spells in her deck, what is she supposed to do? Or if in an early scenario you have banished a B-Basic card, could you replace it with a 1-Basic (or higher) card? According to page 8, sure. According to page 7, no.
The instruction on Page 8 is clearly either incorrect or incomplete. Page 7's instructions need clarifications on whether or not you can use the higher level Option 1 rule when rebuilding, but I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be allowed to.
I think that's silly. Page 7 and page 8 clearly contradict if you look at the rules, except that they don't, because the rulebook refers to Tempest Rising directly (because OP didn't exist when S&S was published), which isn't a scenario in OP (0-3 is "Treacherous Waters"). Which actually means you never start Tempest Rising in OP.
But I always assumed that all of that wording actually made common sense (instead of the contradictory wording that's actually in the guide to OP) and just used the "2 Adventures below (when in 0-3 and up)" rule. If you expect people to trudge around involuntarily with Basics in Adventure 6 OP, I think you'll have a lot less people playing OP.
And banishing cards isn't really all that common (I know 0-5 and 0-6 are a different beast); I think there was one scenario where we banished anything, and that was because the Bard was boneheaded and didn't heed our advice to actually throw a blessing at the check before rolling. I think we were actually like "stop and think about it first" too.
My group has played it that you replace a banished card with a B Basic if available, due to the removal of Basic and Elite from the box for Adventure 4 pertaining only to the box and not the class decks. Banishment is supposed to be punishing, or there would only be bury. Avoid it. Fight against it: bless the Cyclops, banish a Loot ally on closing. If you were playing Adventure 5 and used Unearthly Aim and could just get it back at the end of the scenario, it'd suddenly become a reckless go-to instead of a trump card. If you could technically get back any card (since the rules say if you don't have a Basic you can replace it with another appropriate card,) Consecrate wouldn't be a last resort, it'd become an every scenario cheese. The game is built around teamwork, so if there's a card you really want back, I'm sure the team would be happy to explore a bit more to find it.
...banish a Loot ally on closing ...
Banishing a loot card in Organized Play is the same as banishing the underlying card it replaced.
I've been personally playing with the same rules as the base set because I didn't realize the Organized Play rules differed here, however the rules don't actually tell you how to rebuild in adventures 3+ outside of obliquely referencing the standard base set rules on the matter. I believe pluvia33 is referring to an older version of the OP Guide as the wording on mine is different, and I re-downloaded it today to ensure I have the most recent version. Mine says the following:
After upgrading your deck, when rebuilding the rest of your character deck, choose extra cards, if needed, from your Class Deck. Use the Starting Character rules, which are similar to the standard game rules.
The Starting Character rules in their entirety are as follows (emphasis mine):
If the scenario you’re playing has an adventure deck number of 1 or 2, when you build your starting deck, begin by using only cards that have the Basic trait and also have the set indicator B on the upper-right corner. If you do not have enough such cards to finish building your deck, you may then add cards with the B set indicator that do not have the Basic trait. If you run out of cards with the B set indicator, use set 1 cards by the same guidelines. Alternatively, you may choose a pregenerated starting character from Appendix I of this guide.
So, the RAW doesn't tell you how to rebuild on Adventures 3+, but does mention the standard game rules. Unless someone from paizo pops in to say otherwise, I believe it is a safe assumption to use the standard rebuilding rules when in those higher-level adventures. Yes, this means you can employ tricks like getting back Unearthly Aim at the end of every scenario, but in my experience that isn't all that useful for a non-spellcaster anyway (referring to Unearthly Aim in particular here), since there are still a ton of noncombat checks and most villains now have 2 checks to defeat, whereas the spell only helps you on one of them. It's a more useful tool since you don't need to spend your only upgrade to get it back, but I've been doing exactly that trick on my rogue since Adventure 4 (that spell is a 2 in the Rogue class deck), and I've maybe used it a total of 3 times since then, and only once was it actually useful instead of being there for overkill purposes. As for Consecrate, in what Class Deck is that a 4 or lower? You can only get back cards of deck number 2 lower than the scenario you just finished according to the standard rules.
I believe pluvia33 is referring to an older version of the OP Guide as the wording on mine is different, and I re-downloaded it today to ensure I have the most recent version.
No, I have the most recent version. The parts you quoted are also in my file, but like you said it does not describe how to rebuild your deck during Adventure 3 or higher. The part of the rules I quoted is on page 8 and it specifically says that you fill missing spots with Basic cards.
Personally, I see significance in the fact that is says "which are similar to the standard game rules." It doesn't say it works exactly the same. To me, the reference to the Starting Character rules is only there in case you don't have a Basic B card available in your class deck to fill missing spots, so you can then go up the chain.
My group has played it that you replace a banished card with a B Basic if available, due to the removal of Basic and Elite from the box for Adventure 4 pertaining only to the box and not the class decks. Banishment is supposed to be punishing, or there would only be bury. Avoid it. Fight against it: bless the Cyclops, banish a Loot ally on closing. If you were playing Adventure 5 and used Unearthly Aim and could just get it back at the end of the scenario, it'd suddenly become a reckless go-to instead of a trump card. If you could technically get back any card (since the rules say if you don't have a Basic you can replace it with another appropriate card,) Consecrate wouldn't be a last resort, it'd become an every scenario cheese. The game is built around teamwork, so if there's a card you really want back, I'm sure the team would be happy to explore a bit more to find it.
Replacing banished cards with cards 2 decks lower than the current deck has always been the rule in non-OP, though. The key is to only banish cards you don't need or could easily get back. That's part of the strategizing, since sometimes you must banish cards.
So, I found the bit pluvia33 quoted, but it is under the "Method Two: Obey The Process" section. So, if your group is using method one (obey the social contract) for deck upgrades, as my group is, then that bit of text does not apply once again leaving replacing cards entirely undefined for adventure 3 and beyond. This actually came up again in my group yesterday since a player banished a card that put them one short at the end, and we as a group agreed that limiting it to basics on adventure 6 makes zero sense whatsoever and the OP rules were nonexistent for that adventure, so we followed something similar to the standard rules (hmm, that wording seems familiar :P) where he selected a deck 4 card from his class deck (as opposed to the game box, which is the standard rule) to finish out his deck.
Tanis, could we please have a ruling on this?
How this is decided has a significant impact on the composition of character decks in OP.
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Holy over-parsing, Batman.
Use the standard "Between Games" rules to replace cards you've banished. Replace obviously set-specific terms/things that don't make sense in context with their common sense equivalents. Example:
If you can’t construct a valid deck from the cards your group has available because you don’t have enough of certain card types, choose the extra cards you need from the box, choosing only cards with the Basic trait. After you begin the adventure Tempest Rising, you may ignore the Basic trait restriction; instead, you may use any cards in the box from the base set and the Character Add-On Deck, as well as any cards from an adventure whose adventure deck number is at least 2 lower than the adventure you’re currently playing. If you have cards left over after rebuilding all of the surviving characters’ decks, put them back in the box.
If you can’t construct a valid deck from the cards your group has available because you don’t have enough of certain card types, choose the extra cards you need from the box, choosing only cards with the Basic trait. After you begin the adventureTempest RisingAdventure 3, you may ignore the Basic trait restriction; instead, you may use any cards in the box from thebase set and the Character Add-On DeckClass Deck you're usingas well as any cards from an adventurewhose adventure deck number is at least 2 lower than the adventure you’re currently playing. If you have cards left over after rebuilding all of the surviving characters’ decks, put them back in the box.
Apparently this will be clarified in the next version of the Guide.
...banish a Loot ally on closing ...Banishing a loot card in Organized Play is the same as banishing the underlying card it replaced.Yes, that was kind of my point. If you're using a Loot ally it's because you want to use it, and it will return on the next scenario. Banishing a Loot ally you intend to use again loses you nothing in the long run. In my group, we've each used the same Loot card since we gained access to the one we wanted. But I digress.
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Thank you Tanis! I'll let my sorcerer player know that he can pick different cards instead of a Dagger and Bracers of Protection.
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Something I've been wondering about replacing banished cards: If I have cards in my deck that are more than 2 levels below the adventures I'm playing, can I just banish some of the low cards between scenarios to take advantage of that rule?
I recently completed 0-4D Impossible Bottle with four other players, and I dumped a Blessing of the Gods from my deck to close one location. (Technically, it was shuffled into another location, and it later occurred to me that I could have stuffed it into an empty open location with an annoying close check in case that player didn't have their own blessing.) After completing the scenario, I filled that hole with a Blessing 2 from my class deck. My question is whether I actually needed something like that close procedure.
