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Alright, thank you for the tips for doing this in a way that is beneficial and enjoyable for the rest of the party but I think this is getting more into advice territory so I may be making a topic in there on how to get all this done. Thanks a bunch everybody. :)
One PFS thing to add and its nearly insurmountable: Table variation. The rules for perception, stealth, surprise rounds, starting combat, and the timing of moving through the dungeon are some of the vaguest and most dm dependent in the game. Every dm does it their own way, and getting your rogue to fit in so it works is hard when the dm changes every game or so.
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As a Sniper, you can get your sneak attack damage at a farther range than usual, and sniping allows you to make an immediate Stealth Check (at -20) as a free action to restealth.
How are you going back to stealth as a free action? It's a move action to restealth after sniping normally. I don't see anything that changes that in the sniper archetype itself.
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An often overlooked cantrip for remote communication: Light.
It requires the scouting party to be able to cast cantrips in the first place, but that's fairly possible for a rogue. And it gives the added bonus of being totally silent communication.
Using Light for communication is a bit of rules jiu-jitsu: turning a limiting drawback into a useable strength. You (ab)use the feature that a caster can have only one light spell active at a time.
So the scout casts light on a whatever, and leaves it with the party. When he's ready to tell the party to begin converging in for the kill, he casts light on a little pebble inside a sow's ear he carries around. It makes the light he left with the party go out (silent communication) and by casting light on an object inside a bag, he can keep the light from giving away his location to the bad guys, as well.
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Light has a verbal component, so its at least as loud as sir clanks a lot.
Clever idea though. There might be another spell to make it work.
Presumably you're not RIGHT BEHIND the NPC when you're signaling for the attack to begin. If you want to go down that route, there's Silent Spells... but yeah. Generally send word for the attack to begin from a little ways off to make perception checks challenging to hear.
Anyway, if you arrive at the fight at the same time as the Clanks-alots, but from behind the NPCs, it'll be easier to sell the plan than to ask the party to buy off on you soloing the NPC(s) for a couple rounds.
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Presumably you're not RIGHT BEHIND the NPC when you're signaling for the attack to begin. If you want to go down that route, there's Silent Spells... but yeah. Generally send word for the attack to begin from a little ways off to make perception checks challenging to hear.
Thats one of the thousand little problems of DM variation involved in sneaking anywhere. How close can you be to someone and cast?
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast.
A strong voice to me says dc 0 to hear, which is probably easier than sir clanksalots stealth check.
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As a Sniper, you can get your sneak attack damage at a farther range than usual, and sniping allows you to make an immediate Stealth Check (at -20) as a free action to restealth.How are you going back to stealth as a free action? It's a move action to restealth after sniping normally. I don't see anything that changes that in the sniper archetype itself.
You are correct. Not sure what I was thinking there.
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Presumably you're not RIGHT BEHIND the NPC when you're signaling for the attack to begin. If you want to go down that route, there's Silent Spells... but yeah. Generally send word for the attack to begin from a little ways off to make perception checks challenging to hear.
Thats one of the thousand little problems of DM variation involved in sneaking anywhere. How close can you be to someone and cast?
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast.
A strong voice to me says dc 0 to hear, which is probably easier than sir clanksalots stealth check.
Well, you're ultimately right in that table variation will set the DC, which is a shame. It seems like something as basic a notion as "noticing spellcasting" should be covered. Technically invisibility is a flat +20 to the DC, even for sound effects. There's also distraction and environmental effects to cite for pumping your DC even higher.
But rather than engage in rules chicanery with the GM, it's better to just explain what you're trying to do: "I'm not trying to one shot one kill the NPC... all I'm trying to do is begin the encounter on the map away from the rest of the team, ideally with the NPC between us".
That sort of stealth/scouting is pretty dang reasonable most of the time, and the GM will likely not look for ways to tell you that the rules say you can't pull it off.
If you have a GM that says "Look, the scenario says the PCs start here on the map, so that's where you start. ALL of you.." then there's not much you can do but endure the scenario and hope for better next time.
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You are correct. Not sure what I was thinking there.As a Sniper, you can get your sneak attack damage at a farther range than usual, and sniping allows you to make an immediate Stealth Check (at -20) as a free action to restealth.How are you going back to stealth as a free action? It's a move action to restealth after sniping normally. I don't see anything that changes that in the sniper archetype itself.
Too bad. I'm working on a crossbow sniper, I was hoping you'd found a way to do it!
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But rather than engage in rules chicanery with the GM, it's better to just explain what you're trying to do: "I'm not trying to one shot one kill the NPC... all I'm trying to do is begin the encounter on the map away from the rest of the team, ideally with the NPC between us".
Right, but if i set the dc at 20 to notice you casting a harmless little light spell, I also have to set the dc at 20 (or more likely 25 or 30) for the NPC to detect the wizard with improved invisibility launching off dominate monster spells with impunity. If I give you that inch to do something cool the player next to you is going to throw down the transcontinental railroad.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Unfortunately they say you have to speak words of dismissal to dismiss a spell, so Dancing Lights also doesn't allow you to provide a signal.
Mage Hand has a duration of Concentration. You could stealth while concentrating. Mage Hand something to float, concentration to maintain it as you stealth up. Quit concentrating and the object drops. Best of all, anything that disturbs your concentration would also cause the Mage Hand to stop.
Unfortunately, the range on Mage Hand is extremely limited.
BNW, what's your beef, man? Like, you're attacking different aspects of this thing, but what's your thesis? A lot of your arguments are good, but some of them are predicated on practices and interpretations that are inconsistent with how many DMs run encounters involving bad guys who are sneaky or invisible, and/or just seem post-hoc. This makes me think you've got some underlying criticism more fundamental than any of your disparate points (and that underlying criticism is probably valid and worth knowing, if your history is any indication).
Would you prefer it if they re-wrote the stealth and perception skills to make scouting and ambush work the way so many players seem to want it to work?
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BNW, what's your beef, man? Like, you're attacking different aspects of this thing, but what's your thesis?
That when trying to stealth, there are 87 different things that can go wrong so one of them is very likely to. I'm not saying to abandon the tactic if you really have your heart set on it, but you have to get all your ducks in a row AND even then adjust expectations for this tactic to work. Get invisibility, its the only way it works.
Get invisibility its the only way it works. and get invisibility its the only way it works.
The OP walked right into one of the most egregious problems 'I'm a human and I want to go scout in the dark!'.
A lot of your arguments are good, but some of them are predicated on practices and interpretations that are inconsistent with how many DMs run encounters involving bad guys who are sneaky or invisible
But are they inconsistent with how many DMs will run encounters with PLAYERS that are sneaky or invisible? I don't like the disparity there. As a result i get fewer surprise rounds on the PCs than any DM I've played with
and/or just seem post-hoc.
Example?
This makes me think you've got some underlying criticism more fundamental than any of your disparate points (and that underlying criticism is probably valid and worth knowing, if your history is any indication).
-The stealth rules are kinda borked.
-The Borkedness of the stealth rules often get handwaived by special circumstances, set ups, and terrain modifiers for NPCs in ways that are not going to happen for the PCs. PCs have to deal with the terrain as they find it. NPCs will have the exact terrain they need to ambush you provided by the scenario.
-Stealth rules rely on EXACTLY how the DM does it. Which is a problem when you change DMs like in organized play.
Would you prefer it if they re-wrote the stealth and perception skills to make scouting and ambush work the way so many players seem to want it to work?
Not that far. Some players want it to be improved invisibility with a skill check (that they'll never miss)
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For the light signarl what about dancing lights?
Dancing lights doesn't require concentration to make the lights move or act. What you can do is summon four little orbs and then move them into different shapes: a line in front of the party for alls good, a triangle for warning, or a bar in front of the party for stop, or a square for "HEEEEEEEELP!" It apparently doesn't even take an action to do this.
Could we push out some kind of "How Do Stealth: a DM's Guide" or something? (Possibly this is forthcoming in Unchained or whatever...?)
Also, yay I know of at least one optimizers in the group. GAH I just want a badass squad of sneaky people. with ways to cover the rest of party needs of course but if I had a whole squad of sneaky people. This is my dream.
Home group not PFS, but I talked one group into trying a stealthy unit. It took some more time to talk them into a teamwork feat taking up a precious slot in their build. But stealth synergy was vastly worth it.
When you have 5 people rolling a d20, odds are pretty decent someone will roll low and the group is discovered.
When you have 5 people rolling a d20 and everyone uses the highest number rolled, odds are almost impossible to have a bad stealth and the group discovered. It made a monstrously huge difference.
But yes, you almost have to have darkvision and invisibility (or vanish) to use stealth all that often by RAW.
...But yes, you almost have to have darkvision and invisibility (or vanish) to use stealth all that often by RAW.
This is the claim that I want to dissect more. "to use stealth" is too general; too vague. I think often when people say this, they mean "Use stealth tactically" or "Use stealth to bypass an encounter."
(Not that I don't think you need to generate your own concealment and have darkvision. That's not not the point. We're unlikely to make improvements in this area if we don't hone our terminology a bit.)
For instance, I'm pretty sure the rules allow you to make stealth checks in a fog to sneak around. I bet they even allow you to do this while moving past enemies who very much suspect you are doing this. Whether or not that is useful is another question dependent upon the end goal. What are we "using stealth" for?
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For the light signarl what about dancing lights?
Dancing lights doesn't require concentration to make the lights move or act. What you can do is summon four little orbs and then move them into different shapes: a line in front of the party for alls good, a triangle for warning, or a bar in front of the party for stop, or a square for "HEEEEEEEELP!" It apparently doesn't even take an action to do this.
Light can still be used to signal to begin the attack, even if the GM says casting has to be so loud that it's DC 0 to hear.
Have the scout carry the first pebble in a slightly open bag. When that light goes out, the scout knows the Clanks alots are inbound. Turning the signal around in that way may make the whole idea even easier to swallow for the rest of the party; they're not waiting for the rogue.. they're telling the rogue "ready or not... HERE WE COME"
Agreed. Heavy fog would count as the cover or concealment that would allow you to sneak around. I can think of only 1 PFS scenario that I have been in that had heavy fog.
The primary thing that people complain about is the result of the lack of facing rules in PFS. Since by RAW no one is 'looking the other direction' when you try to sneak past, it means they are looking right at you. If they are looking right at you with decent lighting, there is no chance for stealth to succeed.
It makes sense in our minds that the guys sitting around the table are paying attention to each other and not looking down the hallway. (That is how most GM's I know would rule it in a home game.) But by RAW they are paying attention to what happens down the hallway just as much as the food or cards in front of them on the table.
Is it impossible to every use stealth in PFS? No of course not. But it tends to work much less often than in a home game where a GM can ignore what doesn't make sense.
So yes, in the dark of night you can sneak up to the castle wall. But you probably can't wait until the guard passes and climb over the wall or creep up on the patrolling guards and take them out, as is shown in multitudes of old movies. The scenario will almost certainly say there are torches/lanterns at intervals. So clear lighting and no cover/concealment when you are on the top. Since no facing they are looking at you. You are discovered even with a really high stealth roll.
I heard that!
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The primary thing that people complain about is the result of the lack of facing rules in PFS. Since by RAW no one is 'looking the other direction' when you try to sneak past, it means they are looking right at you. If they are looking right at you with decent lighting, there is no chance for stealth to succeed.
You are supposed to be able to make a Bluff check to make a distraction to maintain Stealth in that case. As long as you both start your turn and end your turn in cover/concealment you should be OK.
Which is all great in theory. In practice, there's lots of table variation.
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Have the scout carry the first pebble in a slightly open bag. When that light goes out, the scout knows the Clanks alots are inbound. Turning the signal around in that way may make the whole idea even easier to swallow for the rest of the party; they're not waiting for the rogue.. they're telling the rogue "ready or not... HERE WE COME"
Two problems: 1) having a slightly open bag with a lightrock in it is a bad idea in a cave. If a rogue can see the light then you're going to stand out like a beacon in a cave. 2) The party telling you what they're doing is easy, a scout has to send information the other way.
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BNW, what's your beef, man? Like, you're attacking different aspects of this thing, but what's your thesis?That when trying to stealth, there are 87 different things that can go wrong so one of them is very likely to.87? Pffft. There's 2.
1. You get seen.
2. You get heard.:P
You get smelled
You get blindsightedyou get blindsensed
You get detect magicked
You get tremorsensed
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BNW, what's your beef, man? Like, you're attacking different aspects of this thing, but what's your thesis?That when trying to stealth, there are 87 different things that can go wrong so one of them is very likely to.87? Pffft. There's 2.
1. You get seen.
2. You get heard.:P
You get smelled
You get blindsighted
you get blindsensed
You get detect magicked
You get tremorsensed
You only need 80 more. :P
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So yes, in the dark of night you can sneak up to the castle wall.
Not in a D&D universe you can't. This humancentric approach is where so many things go wrong with the people trying to stealth. You're acting as if the ability to see in the dark is some rare, special ability when in fact its human(and halfling) night blindness that's the freaky exception.
To a human rogue that expanse of lawn between the castle* is a dark murky abyss great to hide in. For the elf, half elf, and every creature on golarion right down to the castles spit dog it looks like the lights are on in wriggly field.
* thats WHY there's a big open field around the castle: so your archers have cover and theirs don't.
So yes, in the dark of night you can sneak up to the castle wall.Not in a D&D universe you can't. This humancentric approach is where so many things go wrong with the people trying to stealth. You're acting as if the ability to see in the dark is some rare, special ability when in fact its human(and halfling) night blindness that's the freaky exception.
To a human rogue that expanse of lawn between the castle* is a dark murky abyss great to hide in. For the elf, half elf, and every creature on golarion right down to the castles spit dog it looks like the lights are on in wriggly field.
* thats WHY there's a big open field around the castle: so your archers have cover and theirs don't.
Well in the particular example I was thinking of the 30' castle walls on top of the hill puts the sneaking characters far enough from the light that most GM's were calling it a very dim light condition. So even with (hmm.. trying to remember) elves (I think) on top of the wall they ruled we had some concealment so could try the stealth at a penalty to get to the base of the wall. Then the crenellations and such give you very good cover unless someone is actually leaning out over the wall.
Don't remember exactly, it's been a couple years since that example.|
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Well in the particular example I was thinking of the 30' castle walls on top of the hill puts the sneaking characters far enough from the light that most GM's were calling it a very dim light condition.
The torch isn't the problem.
Low-Light Vision
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The primary thing that people complain about is the result of the lack of facing rules in PFS. Since by RAW no one is 'looking the other direction' when you try to sneak past, it means they are looking right at you. If they are looking right at you with decent lighting, there is no chance for stealth to succeed.
For what it's worth:
When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment.
So yes, you CAN "sneak past" the room where the guys are playing cards, as long as you can get from one side of the doorway to the other in a single turn, and then succeed on a Stealth check. (Note that this is a relatively recent eratta to the Stealth skill.)
Also:
It makes sense in our minds that the guys sitting around the table are paying attention to each other and not looking down the hallway. (That is how most GM's I know would rule it in a home game.) But by RAW they are paying attention to what happens down the hallway just as much as the food or cards in front of them on the table.
There's a +5 to the Perception DC if the creature is distracted.
So if you're creeping down the hall, and there's an open doorway to a room full of card-players, and you need to move past it to continue down the hall, literally all you have to do, by the rules, is walk on by and make a Stealth check with a +5 bonus.
There's still plenty of other obstacles with using Stealth, but at least they finally fixed the dart-past-the-opening issue.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Can anyone poke a hole in the dancing lights signal game? If you've got a strait 5 foot cooridoor it will light up the party... but if not i have an idea i want to try with it
I don't find anything requiring Line of Sight between the caster and the effect. Duration is a bit short (constant 1 minute), but not horrible.
Seems workable to me provided you can stealth where you need to quickly.
If you are going for a longer duration, Silent Image should work. Unfortunately this is a 1st level spell so you only have a limited number of times you could do that.
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You only need 80 more. :P
Cry elsewhere they advised
Won’t explode now like I should
Got Burried in debree
And then drowned in the sea
I’m leaving now for my own good
That's cool, but if my friends ask where you are Tell Aram Zey
That's cool, but if my friends ask where you are Tell Aram Zey
We went down through a storm drain
Died in my last stand
Fell in a death trap squisher full of quicksand
Help me, help me, I'm all out of allies
She met a shark under water
Fell and no one caught her
Matrimony to a blackros daughter
Help me, help me, I'm all out of lies
And ways to say you died
My skin still feels the sting
From veneom on that thing
Not to mention fungal spores
Got captured by gnoll clans
Leave me that’s the plan?
Their poetry was sheer torture
That's cool, but if my friends ask where you are tell Aram Zey
You was caught in a mudslide
Pounced by a lion
Got mind blasted by a third edition Psion
Help me, help me, I'm all out of allies!
I dried up in the desert
Tripped by a wolf cub
Bashed to death by an ogre with a greatclub
Help me, help me, I'm all out of allies
And ways to say you died
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Agreed. Heavy fog would count as the cover or concealment that would allow you to sneak around. I can think of only 1 PFS scenario that I have been in that had heavy fog.
And if its the one i'm thinking of, that fog was there PRECISELY so that a rogue had an excuse to sneak right up next to party members and gank them. Thats the kind of terrain advantage I['m talking about when it comes to NPC vs PC stealth tactics.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Agreed. Heavy fog would count as the cover or concealment that would allow you to sneak around. I can think of only 1 PFS scenario that I have been in that had heavy fog.
And if its the one i'm thinking of, that fog was there PRECISELY so that a rogue had an excuse to sneak right up next to party members and gank them. Thats the kind of terrain advantage I['m talking about when it comes to NPC vs PC stealth tactics.
Did that NPC pay the requisite feat tax to be able to Sneak Attack in fog? ;)
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Pathfinder society Dancing lights Semaphore.
Make a dancing lights triangle: One light in the center
The bigger the triangle the faster the scout is moving. One big ball means stop.
Triangle tilts right, they're going right. Left, left etc.
Triangle spins clockwise= get up here. Faster it spins, the more urgent it is.
Triangle spins counter clockwise= Run away. Faster it spins the more urgent it is.
Threat level: three balls in a vertical line. The fourth ball marks a point on an XY axis. X denotes the certainty of violence, Y denotes the level of the threat.
The duration on dancing lights, which i missed, is a real limiting factor in making use of this.
Well in the particular example I was thinking of the 30' castle walls on top of the hill puts the sneaking characters far enough from the light that most GM's were calling it a very dim light condition.
The torch isn't the problem.
Low-Light Vision
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
Everyone felt we were far enough away that even seeing twice as far put us into the partial concealment area. {shrug}
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The character isn't updated (I really should do that some time) but a few months ago I got a Half Elf Ninja to level 12. All through Kyras's career, his role in the party was to act as a scout. With nothing more than a swift action, he could get obtain stealth rolls in the 40's to 60's (depending on what level you'd like to look at).
My experiences with Kyras taught me that scouting isn't always about stealth. In fact, stealth is only one tool in the toolbox. Scouting is about taking all the tools you can find and bringing them together into a single package.
There were missions where Kyras would scout ahead. There were missions where he'd put his maxed out Disguise and Bluff skills to good use. There were missions where he stuck with the party and scouted simply by using gloves of recon on the upcoming doors. Kyras's main strength, both in and out of battle, was his flexibility.
That's my primary piece of advice to you: make sure that your character is flexible. Every time you complete a scenario in PFS, you gain 1 or 2 prestige points. Every mission, you are allowed to spend 2 prestige to purchase an item of up to 750gp in value. That covers a TON of utility options. Potions of invisibility (or see invisibility), spider climb, fly, gaseous form (also a great escape method), touch of the sea (for water encounters). Sleeves of Many Garments to assist with disguises. Mask of Stony Demeanor to enhance bluff (though that's more situational and the effectiveness varies by GM). Elixirs of Vision to improve perception. Elixirs of Hiding to buff the stealth scores of your armored companions (or buff your own to an insane degree).
Combined with maxed out ranks in Use Magic Device (an incredibly powerful skill), you can also use first level wands. What's better than using a potion of see invisibility or an elixir of vision to notice the hidden dangers ahead? Following it up with a wand of Faerie Fire to reveal the dangers to your party.
There are adventures out there where stealth and/or disguise are exactly what's called for. During those adventures, you will be the MVP of the party. At the same time, there are adventures where scouting will seem nigh useless. During those, it's important to have a heavy toolbox backing you up. Sometimes the toolbox will allow you to scout when you otherwise couldn't have. Sometimes scouting just isn't possible. But even when scouting itself is useless, your character won't be useless. He'll just reach into his toolbox and switch to another tactic. Whether it's a skill point, a special ability, or a magic item, everything contributes to your toolbox. Enshrines these words in the character sheet of your scout, and you'll never regret it.
And seriously, get some gloves of recon. They're awesome. ^_^
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You only need 80 more. :P
** spoiler omitted **
Completely irrelevent to the argument, that was the most epic way of actually DETAILING your argument that I've ever seen.
Well done sir. I loaded up the song and 'sang along' mentally. I literally laughed until I cried.
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@Kyras Mystborn: Nice post, but, sadly, potions of See Invisibility are not legal.
See Invisibility
Range personal
Target youSpells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
This is why an elixir of spirit sight is so nice. For 250gp more than the potion that doesn't work, you get the same effect plus ghost touch (armor and weapons) for a minute.