5e Defiler as Wizard Tradition?

[QuietBrowser]

Having read the Unearthed Arcana: Eberron article, and been quite impressed with WotC's efforts at making the Artificer effective by folding it into the Wizard class-umbrella, I began to wonder.

As we all know, in 2e, Dark Sun's Defiler were basically treated as their own "wizard, yet not" class, with Preservers getting much the same. In 4e, they went with the simple, elegant methodology of making Preservation the default form, with Defiling being an option that gave greater power at a price.

So, what do folks think are the likely odds that, when 5e swings itself Dark Sun way, the Preserver will again become the "vanilla" mage, whilst the Defiler will become a Tradition, and thus adding new crunch to the Wizard class-umbrella?

And if that happens, how do you think WoTC might pull it off?

[SmiloDan]

I would think it would create a tradition that provides features at levels 2, 6, 10, and 14.

Or would a defiler be more of a sorcerer or warlock type of thing? Or even a particularly evil druid Circle?

I can see a defiler providing metamagic-like benefits, but with a cost paid to the environment.

[Jester David]

I'd use the 4e defiler as a starting point. Possibly where you choose to defile or preserve whenever you cast a spell.

Some bonus on top of regular casting fir drawing life from around you. Maybe even allowing spells to be cast as swift spells. So it's tempting and advantageous to defile (but evil).

[SmiloDan]

I don't know anything about the 4e defiler, but maybe a mechanic where you can cast spells with a benefit (bonus action, doubled proficiency bonus to Save DC, etc.), but you gain disadvantage on Ability Checks, Attack Rolls, or Saving Throws (defiler's choice) until your next long rest. So you could use it 3 times per day, but suffer Disadvantage on all 3. Maybe at 6th, 10th, and 14th level, you can lose Disadvantage during a short rest.

[Steve Geddes]

It seems more thematic to me for the defiler to harm others rather than themselves.

Maybe the penalty could be levied on a nearby ally (or even just any nearby creature) - that wouldnt make them ideal PC classes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, imo.

It seems to me that part of playing a defiler is gaining power nobody else has at the expense of others/the environment. If it is represented as a "gain this/lose this" mechanic solely within the context of the caster I think you run the risk of losing some of the essential flavor.

[SmiloDan]

Oh, great point!

It could maybe "curse" a nearby creature or ruin the nearby environment.

I don't know how much most PCs care about killing off some grass, or making the land unable to grow crops or whatever. Maybe if it spoiled food and stuff too. Or if the area affected is VERY large (like a 1 mile radius), so all the natives would get upset.

But forcing a creature to make Charisma save or be cursed, just to add a "metamagic" effect to a spell might be REAL fun and interesting. Especially if strangers get Advantage on the save, so it would force the defiler to choose between an ally or an enemy, with different expectations of success.

[Mordo]

Defilers usually don't care about damaging nature and/or people and will perfectly fit an evil PC, but in a world where the environment has been destroyed by such folks, defilers shouldn't be allowed for good or neutral PC. Also it should be noted that defiling an area leaves traces and in Darksun, arcane spellcasters try to keep low profile if they wish to live to see the next day :)

[Jester David]

SmiloDan wrote:

I don't know anything about the 4e defiler, but maybe a mechanic where you can cast spells with a benefit (bonus action, doubled proficiency bonus to Save DC, etc.), but you gain disadvantage on Ability Checks, Attack Rolls, or Saving Throws (defiler's choice) until your next long rest. So you could use it 3 times per day, but suffer Disadvantage on all 3. Maybe at 6th, 10th, and 14th level, you can lose Disadvantage during a short rest.

IIRC in 4e Dark Sun, whenever an arcane caster rolls a "1", you can choose to define, dealing damage to allies in an area, to reroll.

It'd be easy to make it less reactive, so when casting a spell, you can grant advantage on a spell attack or imposes disadvantage on a saving throw by damaging allies and killing nature in a radius.

A tradition works as well, granting bonuses to that effect.

[Mordo]

I've read on a wizards community forum some rules about defiling, and one of these allowed a defiler, if the succeed a Charisma or Wisdom saving throw, can cast its spell without using a spell slot. If the fail they take 1d4 necrotic damage. In either case, the act of defiling destroys nature around them.

Defiling rules

Excerpt of defiling rules:

By default, when anyone casts an arcane spell (without drawing their magic from a sorcerer king, like a templar does), they are assumed to be going through the effort of preserving their terrain during the casting process. Alternatively, when anyone casts an arcane spell within 35 yards of undefiled terrain (so long as they are not a warlock drawing power from their sorcerer king), they may choose to defile the terrain; the character makes a Charisma or Wisdom (character’s choice) saving throw (DC = 10 + the level of the spell being cast) in order to cast the spell without using a spell sot. The spellcaster must be able to cast spells of that level while preserving in order to try and cast the spell without using a spell slot. If they fail this saving throw and have an unused spell slot of the appropriate level, they may spend that spell slot in order to still cast the spell. Otherwise, the spellcaster’s action is wasted. Additionally, if a spellcaster fails this saving throw, they take necrotic damage equal to 1d4 per spell level they are trying to cast. This damage cannot be reduced by any means. In either case, whether the spellcaster successfully casts the spell or not, the terrain is still defiled. The spellcaster defiles a number of yards worth of terrain in a spherical radius around their self based on the type of terrain in which the spell is being cast and the level of the spell as noted below.

Barren Wastes or Mountains: Spell level x 5 yards destroyed.

Scrub Plains: Spell level / 3 (rounded up) + 3 yards destroyed.

Verdant belts: Spell level / 3 (rounded up) + 1 yards destroyed.

Forest: Spell level / 3 (rounded up) yards destroyed.

Note: 1 yard = 3 feet.

Anyone casting a spell while preserving in terrain that has already been defiled takes disadvantage to any attack rolls made as a result of that spell. Anyone making a saving throw against a spell cast by a spellcaster that is preserving in such defiled terrain has advantage on that saving throw. If a spellcaster defiles while standing in terrain that has already been defiled, the radius of the defiled terrain extends a number of yards equal to the radius of the terrain that the spellcaster would normally destroy.

Once per short rest, sorcerers can also defile terrain in order to regain sorcery points. When doing so, a sorcerer makes a Charisma saving throw equal to 8 + the number or sorcery points they are trying to regain. If the sorcerer succeeds on this check, they regain the points and destroy a number of yards worth of terrain in a spherical radius around their self based on the number of points being regained and the type of terrain in which the points are being regained as noted below. If the sorcerer fails their Charisma saving throw the terrain is still destroyed, and the sorcerer suffers 1 point of damage for every sorcery point they were trying to regain. If the sorcerer attempts to regain the points in terrain that is already defiled, the radius of the defiled terrain extends a number of yards equal to the radius of the terrain that the spellcaster would normally destroy.

Barren Wastes or Mountains: Sorcery points being regained x 5 yards destroyed.

Scrub Plains: Sorcery points being regained / 3 (rounded up) + 3 yards destroyed.

Verdant belts: Sorcery points being regained / 3 (rounded up) + 1 yards destroyed.

Forest: Sorcery points being regained / 3 (rounded up) yards destroyed.

Note: 1 yard = 3 feet.

Wizards may defile while using their arcane recovery class feature in order to regain the slots as an action instead of during a short rest. To do so, a wizard makes an Intelligence saving throw with a DC equal to 10 + the combined level of the spell slots regained. When a wizard does so, they defile terrain in a spherical radius around themselves for a number of yards as if they had defiled the terrain while casting a spell of a level equal to the combined level of the slots regained (see above). If the wizard fails the saving throw, the terrain is still defiled, and the wizard takes 1d10 damage per the combined level of the spell slots the wizard is trying to regain.

Anyone that enters or ends their turn on a space of defiled terrain while maintaining concentration on a spell must make a Constitution saving throw (DC equal to the save caused by the action that defiled the terrain) or lose their concentration. A spellcaster can automatically succeed on this saving throw by extending the radius of the defiled terrain they are in by 1 yard. If a spell that requires concentration is cast in a way that defiles terrain, the spellcaster that cast the spell does not need to make Constitution saving throws to maintain the spell in that terrain until the end of the next turn after the spell is cast.

The vegetation in scrub plains, verdant belts, and forests are withered and dissolved when the terrain is defiled. Plants explode into a fine powder that settles as lifeless ash. Over time, wind blows the ash into lowlands where it gathers to form silt pools. This ash is the primary source of Athas’s vast silt deposits. Spaces of settled ash can form in areas where the wind rarely reaches. When a defiler creates such terrain, after the event that creates the terrain is resolved the area becomes heavily obscured until the end of the defiler’s next turn. After that, the area remains lightly obscured for 10 minutes as the wind dissipates the ash. At the Dungeon Master’s discretion, if the area contains no wind then the area remains heavily obscured for 10 minutes, lightly obscured for 1 hour, and is then covered in a fine layer of settled ash. A creature can unsettle the ash in a 3 foot radius (recreating the same effect as if they had just destroyed the terrain) by making a DC 8 Strength or Dexterity check.

When a 8th or 9th level spell defiles terrain, or a wizard defiles terrain in order to recover 8 or more levels worth of combined spell slots using the arcane recovery class feature, the area of defiled terrain becomes a dead magic zone. No spells can be cast in that terrain.

As a general rule, defiled terrain lasts for a certain amount of time based on the level of spell that destroyed the terrain: 1 day for a cantrip, 1 week for 1st level spells, 2 weeks for 2nd level spells, 3 weeks for 3rd level spells, 4 months for 4th level spells, 5 months for 5th level spells, 6 months for 6th level spells, 7 months for 7th level spells, 8 months for 8th level spells, and 9 years for 9th level spells. If the terrain is defiled by a sorcerer trying to regain sorcery points, then the terrain lasts for 1 month per point the sorcerer attempts to regain. If the terrain is defiled by a wizard using the arcane recovery class feature, the defiled terrain lasts for the same amount of time as if the wizard had cast a spell of a level equal to the combined level of spell slots they try to regain (to a maximum of 9 years).

I like the concept as it follow design philosophy behind Athas. It may be too powerful, some playtesting is definately required.