Using The Bushwack Feat.

[Duriel_Jones]

I have a couple of fun ideas to consistently use the Bushwhack feat but want some clarification on when it can apply.

Bushwhack:

Bushwhack (Combat)
Source Monster Codex pg. 20
You can subdue an unsuspecting foe quickly.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: When a flat-footed creature is unaware of your presence and you successfully grapple it, you can attempt a second grapple combat maneuver check to pin the creature as a free action. If you have the Chokehold feat (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 92), you can instead use this second combat maneuver check to initiate a chokehold.

Specifically, I am unsure as to what situations exactly an opponent is flat-footed and "unaware of your presence".

So it clearly applies to when you were using stealth and grapple an opponent who did not successfully detect you.

What if you have been detected by your enemy, become invisible, then attempt to grapple them the next round?

For an even more specific case what if you were observed, cast Obscuring Mist, and then attempted to grapple the target from a distance greater than 5' via reach?

[Claxon]

I think this is pretty much going to be limited to surprise rounds. Otherwise the enemy is aware of you.

[blackbloodtroll]

Anyone who has not acted in Initiative yet, is Flat-Footed.

Just because Initiative is rolled, doesn't mean they are aware of you.

So, even if you have loud, clumsy allies, you could still benefit by being fast, and sneaky.

[Duriel_Jones]

So it is only effective if they have not detected you initially and any further concealment does not help?

[blackbloodtroll]

I suppose, there are ways that others could become unaware of your presence, after the fact.

Maybe a fellow Wizard spamming Memory Lapse?

[Doomed Hero]

Mid fight, stealth away and use a hat of Disguise to pretend to be one of their allies. Them move up next to them pretending to be helpful. Then grab.

[Xethik]

Doomed Hero wrote:

Mid fight, stealth away and use a hat of Disguise to pretend to be one of their allies. Them move up next to them pretending to be helpful. Then grab.

That enemy is probably not flat-footed if it is in the middle of a fight.

[Duriel_Jones]

So would the use of a disguise(hat of disguise/tear away clothing) and attacking from invisibility/stealth/total concealment (from more than five feet of obscuring Mist or Darkness) allow this feat to function?
That brings up the question if they can't see who is grappling them/their allys but they saw their allys being grappled would that still count as being aware of my presence?

[Just a Guess]

There is a magic item, I think it is a cloak, that allows you to cast vanish if you are dealt fire damage and it creates an illusion of burned remains of you.

That could help. Because if you are invisible and the opponent has reason to think you are dead he should be unaware of you.
Flatfooted is something else.
Perhaps move next to an enemy and have an ally cast grease? While the enemy is using acrobatics within grease he should be flatfooted.

Edit: Found the cloak.

[Doomed Hero]

That cloak would make for one hell of a cool combination.

[Xethik]

The rules for an enemy being flat-footed are... pesky. An enemy not knowing you are there (you have total concealment, invisibility, stealth, or otherwise) means that are denied Dex to AC against you. That does NOT mean they are flat-footed.

Flat-footed is a condition on a creature. It denies them Dex to AC against all attacks as well as prevents them from taking AoOs. Denial of Dex to AC is normally a condition on an attacker.

Just a Guess mentioned this but I wanted to be a bit more explicit. There are a couple ways I know of to force an opponent to be flat-footed, including the Seven-Branched Sword. That may prove interesting for this concept.

[Kchaka]

"Unaware" is a little vague here, ambiguous. It could mean completly unaware of the presence of the enemy, like when you don't know you're about to be ambushed, or unaware of the enemy's exact location / unaware of from where the attack is coming from, like when you know there's an enemy around, but you don't know where he is because he's hiding, invisible, etc.

Technically, if they meant unaware due to not having had a chance to act in the combat yet, they should have used the term "Unaware Combatant", that's specific for that situation. Since they just say "unaware", sounds more like any invisibility will do.

I think the intent in this case is to be able to perform this special attack if you are invisible or succeeded on a stealth check against the enemy.

The weird part is performing this attack agains that enemy that's flat-footed because he hasn't acted and is in the last initiative of the first round. If there was a surprise round, even after a bunch of attacks from everybody in combat, he's still "unaware" of the enemy.

[Claxon]

I think it may be important to note that the meaning of "Bushwhack" is to make a surprise attack. An ambush.

The conditions to use the feat are enemies is flat-footed and unaware of you.

I think once the enemy has seen you, barring something to make them think you are dead or forget about you, they no longer qualify as being unaware.

Which makes perfect sense to me, as this feat is meant to be used for ambushes (i.e. surprise rounds).

You could possibly set up other situations, but it would not be simple.

[Peshmonster]

I've been successfully using this feat on a character. The issue is that a creature is only flat-footed in the first round of combat if it has not acted. (And of course surprise rounds) The unaware part is not a problem as using stealth specifically says that if you succeed your stealth versus the opponents perception they are unaware of you. I use Mistmail for this part and a high stealth check. Usually I ask my party if I can go in first and scout out the situation to see if I can start combat with my grapple or at least so I have a chance of acting before someone within the first round of combat that is within half my movement speed (to reduce penalties for the stealth check).

[Byakko]

It's not well defined, but generally the following is how I've seen "awareness" ruled.

------

If the creature has specific knowledge that:

1) you exist and are in the immediate area
and
2) are hostile or a potential threat

then they are "aware" of you.

------

If you go invisible or stealth, then they are still aware of you and will remain so for a reasonable amount of time.
(after dropping out of combat rounds, with the belief that you're no longer in the immediate vicinity, you can catch them unaware again)

[Peshmonster]

Stealth

(Dex; Armor Check Penalty)

You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.

Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Creatures gain a bonus or penalty on Stealth checks based on their size: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Medium +0, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).

Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Feats).

[Magic Tennis Ball]

How do you guys set up these circumstances to be able to successfully use the feat? My understanding was you had a move or standard action during the surprise round which means you have to start the surprise round adjacent to your target who must be flat-footed and unaware. Don't you lose stealth the moment you start a round without concealment or am I not understanding the stealth rules?

[Byakko]

The trick is to not initiate combat until you are already close to them (or until they walk near you, unawares).