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I haven't played Kingmaker, but I figure that in any exploration/wilderness adventure, things like supplies are a part of the fun. You couldn't play Oregon Trail without worrying about the "beancounting." The "beancounting" is an important part of the gameplay. Moreover, it's an important part of the story. If you handwave questions about provisions, getting lost, etc, then you've just handwaved 80% of a wilderness survival/frontier exploration story. So, what's the point?That's like saying: Material components are part of the fun of playing a caster. The bean counting is an important part of the gameplay. Moreover it's an important part of the story. If you handwave questions about where did you get the bat guano, how much do you have and how can you stand the smell of rotten eggs, etc, then you've just handwaved 80% of the story about playing a caster. So, what's the point?
Cute. I'm sure your snark teacher is proud of you.
But most people don't see tracking material components as part of the story of playing a caster. A large proportion of fantasy fiction does not use material components at all. On the other hand, struggling against the elements, finding food, trade (or battles) with natives (note that trade requires carrying and tracking trade goods--more beancounting), dealing with hostile animals and the aftermaths of river crossings, storms, rapids, etc that might destroy supplies, etc are all major parts of survival and exploration stories. If you don't deal with them, what parts of the exploration or survival story do you have left? Be specific.
There's nothing wrong with saying that you can't enjoy roleplaying that kind of story because you don't have the patience to keep track of the supplies. But being unwilling to deal with the details makes it difficult if not impossible to tell that kind of story. It's good that the original poster found a way for his group to make it work but if he hadn't been able to, I would have suggested (and it seems that he agrees) that he might have to find a different story to tell. (Either by just skipping that part of the adventure path or playing another adventure path entirely if Kingmaker does that kind of exploration the whole way through).
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Cute. I'm sure your snark teacher is proud of you.I haven't played Kingmaker, but I figure that in any exploration/wilderness adventure, things like supplies are a part of the fun. You couldn't play Oregon Trail without worrying about the "beancounting." The "beancounting" is an important part of the gameplay. Moreover, it's an important part of the story. If you handwave questions about provisions, getting lost, etc, then you've just handwaved 80% of a wilderness survival/frontier exploration story. So, what's the point?That's like saying: Material components are part of the fun of playing a caster. The bean counting is an important part of the gameplay. Moreover it's an important part of the story. If you handwave questions about where did you get the bat guano, how much do you have and how can you stand the smell of rotten eggs, etc, then you've just handwaved 80% of the story about playing a caster. So, what's the point?
Eh, He can do better
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We stopped the session there - the player in question seems to be in better spirits, though he is refusing to use the inventory tracking sheet I made for the players. Everyone else loves it - it tracks every gold piece they earn or spend, and does all the math automatically. A huge time saver. But the one player just refuses to use it, saying "I'll track it on my character sheet." He's trustworthy so it's not an issue of him trying to cheat or anything, but it's really kind of annoying that he just flat-out refuses to use the same method as everyone else, especially when it's very clear I want them all to do it. I haven't insisted or anything - it's a game to be played for fun, after all, but it bothers me.
He probably prefers the extra secure feeling of having a physical copy, regardless of how secure it is. I'm the same way.
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The rations thing wasn't so bad for the first module, but our group got sick of the kingdom building, we eventually dropped it entirely. The downside was we lost the "free gold" that you can game out of the kingdom, but we weren't really hurting for wealth/items and the story ran much better when we hand waved the mundane stuff.
It would have worked better if we had done all the kingdom stuff between games, but we didn't have consistent participation to handle more then a turn or two, and it just bogged down.
I would have suggested (and it seems that he agrees) that he might have to find a different story to tell. (Either by just skipping that part of the adventure path or playing another adventure path entirely if Kingmaker does that kind of exploration the whole way through).
Really by the end of the first chapter, when the players start founding cities, that sort of thing stops being a necessity. And even then, my group handwaved it pretty thoroughly through the first chapter. It was basically just "if you make it back to the tradepost within X days, you can restock fine to last you another X days. Stay longer and you roll Survival and I tell you how many more days you scrounge up enough food for".
Nothing about Kingmaker hinges on it being that kind of story, and really even the parts that seem like they do end with the first chapter. After that the players have the resources to found cities and tame the wilderness and things go to pretty standard adventuring from there.
He might've gotten it mixed up with Serpent's Skull:)
All the various minor resource management minigames of Pathfinder are things I've only made the mistake of using once. They're not fun, and they serve no real purpose except to annoy the players with various tedious bits of homework.
Especially obnoxious if you track the weight of gold.
The Spell Component Pouch is assumed to have everything a caster might need to cast a spell of 1 gp or below. Adventuring Kits should do the same.
Honestly, I effectively give every caster the Eschew Materials feat for free and made a deal with My players - they don't need to search every body and keep track of X number of cp, sp and gp, don't need to worry about paying for inns and basic gear/equipment, etc. I figure one basically cancels the other out. Large hordes of gold/gems/jewelry/art, etc. are counted, generally for whatever they can get for it, rounded to the nearest 100 gp in value. Its worked like a dream and they love it.
Some players really get off on tracking every minute thing. I went through that phase myself. But now, streamlining the game and keeping things moving has the greater appeal. Bottom line, unless every player enjoys that kind of minutia, there's no reason to inflict it on them imo.
All the various minor resource management minigames of Pathfinder are things I've only made the mistake of using once. They're not fun, and they serve no real purpose except to annoy the players with various tedious bits of homework.
Especially obnoxious if you track the weight of gold.
The Spell Component Pouch is assumed to have everything a caster might need to cast a spell of 1 gp or below. Adventuring Kits should do the same.
Honestly, I effectively give every caster the Eschew Materials feat for free and made a deal with My players - they don't need to search every body and keep track of X number of cp, sp and gp, don't need to worry about paying for inns and basic gear/equipment, etc. I figure one basically cancels the other out. Large hordes of gold/gems/jewelry/art, etc. are counted, generally for whatever they can get for it, rounded to the nearest 100 gp in value. Its worked like a dream and they love it.
Some players really get off on tracking every minute thing. I went through that phase myself. But now, streamlining the game and keeping things moving has the greater appeal. Bottom line, unless every player enjoys that kind of minutia, there's no reason to inflict it on them imo.
This is, more or less, what I have done in the past. I would typically tell players to make sure they picked up a component pouch every so often and for the spells with expensive components, I told them to just "drop" the gold when they cast it unless there was some good reason to do differently (i.e. you were captured and escaped with nothing but the rags on your backs, etc.)
The only real exception, as I noted before, would be if players are trying to haul massive amounts of loot out of a dungeon, etc. A lot of the early dungeons in particular were designed around the idea that you wouldn't just run through the whole thing without going back to reprovision, etc. Even then though I tend to be fairly generous.
struggling against the elements, finding food, trade (or battles) with natives (note that trade requires carrying and tracking trade goods--more beancounting), dealing with hostile animals and the aftermaths of river crossings, storms, rapids, etc that might destroy supplies, etc are all major parts of survival and exploration stories. If you don't deal with them, what parts of the exploration or survival story do you have left?
The exploration story: Pretty much all of it. Travel to unexplored places, find out what's there, add it to your map.
The survival story: You still have to physically survive encounters with hostile creatures, rivers, etc. You lose the possibility that your supplies will be lost and having to deal with it if they are. You don't have to trade with natives or murder them and steal their stuff to avoid starving.
But I don't think Kingmaker ever really did much with that anyway. It's pretty easy for most Pathfinder parties to survive by foraging - just take 10 on Survival checks. Got a druid? Cast Goodberry: that's a week's rations carried in your pocket.
One of the reasons I was so intent on having ration-tracking and encumbrance management early on is it's something that they grow out of. When their earliest forays into the wilderness are characterized by caution and the feeling of a large, powerful world out there that they are expected to tame and master, it makes it all the more satisfying when, a few levels later, they're able to alleviate those concerns. Not by asking the GM "Please, can we have infinite food?" but by acquiring the resources to do so, and bringing their civilization to the point where such things are provided for them.
Handouts aren't as satisfying as succeeding on your own merit, and that's the feeling that I'm trying to generate for them.
It's not about survival, it's about wilderness. The Stolen Lands need to feel wild. They depend on civilization - they can't just wander into the woods and be fine forever. It's important that they feel that that's true, because civilization is what they're bringing to this land in the second book and beyond.Kingmaker isn't really a wilderness survival story though. It is an exploration story. But when you do you remember Indiana Jones talking about if they had enough food to make it through their trek? I sure don't.
If you want to have a game that focuses on survival sure, it becomes mroe important. But it sounds like that is not the game your players want to play.
Actually, anybody that doesn't have a wisdom penalty is independent of society if they want to be. They can completely provide for themselves by foraging in the wilderness and taking 10. If anyone can manage a 12 they can provide for an extra person. Point being that your party can most likely make it completely on their own, with the only penalty being moving at half speed. Which honestly, isn't much of a penalty when they majority of that time is fast forwarded through.
You say that they can't just walk into the woods and be fine forever. But that is literally false unless you change the rules. They don't need to be annoyed by keeping track of rations to feel the change from foraging woodlands into bustling town and growing empire. That can't be accomplished without needing to bean count. Luxuries flowing in, new services, new people, restaurants, etc can all gives rise to the feel of changing middle of nowhere woods to civilization.
If your players don't want to do the minutia, don't do it. It wont be fun for them, and you trying to force it on them wont engender any good will.