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At the last game, on of the playeres was crit by a Frigid Touch spell, and got Staggered for 10 Rounds, the round afte another player cast Haste, and we got in a debate how to handle it?
GM (Me): The player loos his Staggered Condition, until Haste end, then are Staggered for the reminding time (3 Rounds in this case).
Player 1: The Staggered Condition are dispelled.
Player 2: Haste do nothing to Staggered Condition, it only work on the Slow Spell.
Usual I will just overrule the players, but as Player 2 was the one Staggered, he just got his way (and was staggered fore the rest of the fight).
But what is right? can't find it anywhere?
Player 2 is right.
A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions).
Pretty simple. You can take just one action that isn't a full-round action.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
This entire paragraph becomes useless because the staggered condition means the hasted guy cannot take full-round actions and this paragraph requires a full-round action to make the full attack action.
So this part of the Haste spell cannot benefit a staggered combatant.
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
This is all fine. That Staggered guy can make an attack, and with haste he will get +1 to hit. He'll also get +1 to AC and REF saves. Being Staggered does not negate these bonuses.
All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed.
This also is not negated by being Staggered. Since you are Staggered, you can't double-move or run, but you can make a single move and this magical increase to your speed still applies.
Haste dispels and counters slow.
No conflict. Staggered is not the same thing as Slowed, so this does not apply.
To be more clear, casting Haste on a Staggered target will not negate the Staggered condition - it will be necessary to use both sets of rules, Haste and Staggered, as I described above.
They are two conditions that don't interact with each other.
I'm not sure why you think that they would; nothing in either condition states anything like that, and only one of them even affects how many actions you get.
Player 2 is correct
So Haste only removes the Staggered condition from someone that has Slow on them, and not someone that has the Staggered condition from another spell/effect?
Slow gives you the Staggered condition (plus a couple penalties).
Since Staggered conditions don't stack, does that mean that if Player 2 was hit with Frigid Touch and Staggered, then someone cast Slow on him (Staggered again, but not stacking) and then someone cast Haste on him, he would be back to normal? But wouldn't be back to normal if someone cast Haste after the Frigid Touch? Seems odd that Haste cures Staggered from one source only.
No. He would still be staggered from the Frigid Touch. It doesn't remove the staggered condition, it counters slow, the slow spell goes away, but nothing happens to the frigid touch.
No, haste removes slow. It does not interact in any way with the staggered condition.
If player 2 got hit by frigid touch, then slow, then haste, the haste would counter and dispel the slow, but the staggered condition from frigid touch would remain.
Edit: Ninja'd by 4 seconds.
So to sum up:
Haste removes no conditions. It counters and removes the slow spell. When the slow spell is removed any condition that it placed is removed, but this has does nothing to effects created by other spells and abilities.
It's always nice when we all agree.
Since Staggered conditions don't stack, does that mean that if Player 2 was hit with Frigid Touch and Staggered, then someone cast Slow on him (Staggered again, but not stacking) and then someone cast Haste on him, he would be back to normal?
No, not back to normal.
The Staggered conditions don't stack but both of them are on the target. Haste dispels the Slow which removes the Staggered condition caused by Slow, but it does nothing for the Staggered condition caused by Frigid Touch.
Seems odd that Haste cures Staggered from one source only.
Haste does not cure Staggered.
Haste does NOTHING to the Staggered condition.
Read the spell. Haste counters and dispels Slow. "Slow" is NOT "Staggered". The Slow spell applies the Staggered condition. When the Slow spell ends (by itself when the duration expires, or because someone casts Dispel Magic on it, or because someone casts Haste on the same target, or for any other reason) then the Staggered condition is removed because the Slow spell is no longer causing Staggered.
Casting Haste on a Slowed creature removes the Slow spell (which incidentally removes the Staggered condition too) but that is not the same thing as "Haste cures Staggered".
Thanks all for your answers :)
They are two conditions that don't interact with each other.
I'm not sure why you think that they would; nothing in either condition states anything like that, and only one of them even affects how many actions you get.
Logic and Common Sense?
Logic: An effect that half your action + An effect that (almost) double your action = No effect.
Common Sence: Staggered is bad, Slow are very bad (Staggered + AC/Save Debuff). Haste, remove a very bad condition, so should also remove a lesser bad condition?
But then again, Game Rules and Logic is not the same thing :)
Come to think of it, next time this happen to a player, I shall look him in the eye and say "You are so slow, that you only got one action, and move at half speed, yet you are so fast that you get +1 to AC and Reflex Saves..".
That just stupid! :D
I don't understand what you are trying to say because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Haste counters Slow, or acts as the haste spell. That's all it does.
Staggered is its own thing and has no relation to slow.
Slow has a relation to to the staggered condition.
You are committing a logic error by confusing the relationships (or lack there of) between the two.
Come to think of it, next time this happen to a player, I shall look him in the eye and say "You are so slow, that you only got one action, and move at half speed, yet you are so fast that you get +1 to AC and Reflex Saves..".
That just stupid! :D
Yes, that would be stupid, and not correct according to the rules.
A Staggered combatant is not slow at all. He's still moving at his normal speed, not half-speed, but he is messed up. Messed up enough that he only gets one action per round instead of two (and cannot take full-round actions). He can still attack, and attacks at his normal speed (for a single attack) - it's not like his arm and sword move slowly through the attack motion because he's not slowed. But he's messed up (his brain is struggling with some kind of shock) so he's unable to put a string of attacks together, or to move and attack, or do any other complex activity.
But he's not slow.
Now if you cast Haste on that same guy, he does everything a little faster. His arm DOES move faster when he attacks, hence the attack bonus. He does duck his enemy's attacks a little faster, hence the AC bonus. Etc. But his brain is still messed up so he still cannot take complex actions (like any full-round action or even making a normal standard and move action).
On the other hand, the Slow spell magically induces the Staggered condition as well as reducing the target to half-speed. Now his brain is messed up and dealing with shock and can't handle complex actions and he IS slow - not because he's staggered but because you cast the Slow spell on him. Removing that Slow spell let's him return to normal speed and removes the Staggered condition that was caused by the Slow spell - but if he was staggered by other means, removing the Slow spell won't remove those other Staggered conditions, just the one caused by Slow.
Staggered is its own thing and has no relation to slow.
Slow has a relation to to the staggered condition.
Indeed. It's important to realize that these conditions are reusable for different situations. They're written to be used by a variety of events that end up inflicting some sort of condition on a character. Swarms cause nausea, not because they make you want to barf, but because the characteristics of that condition fit the effect of being swarmed. The same is true with staggered. Slow inflicts the staggered condition because that condition fits the game mechanic effects of being magically slowed. It also fits the effect of being so badly beat up that you're at 0 hit points and being under the effect of the frigid touch spell. Haste remove the staggered effect of the slow spell by reversing the slow spell, but it has no effect on the staggered condition imposed by having 0 hit points or the frigid touch spell. Those are undone by other means (like a healing spell for the 0 hit point version).
A Staggered combatant is not slow at all. He's still moving at his normal speed, not half-speed, but he is messed up. Messed up enough that he only gets one action per round instead of two (and cannot take full-round actions). He can still attack, and attacks at his normal speed (for a single attack) - it's not like his arm and sword move slowly through the attack motion because he's not slowed. But he's messed up (his brain is struggling with some kind of shock) so he's unable to put a string of attacks together, or to move and attack, or do any other complex activity.
But he's not slow.
Now if you cast Haste on that same guy, he does everything a little faster. His arm DOES move faster when he attacks, hence the attack bonus. He does duck his enemy's attacks a little faster, hence the AC bonus. Etc. But his brain is still messed up so he still cannot take complex actions (like any full-round action or even making a normal standard and move action).
On the other hand, the Slow spell magically induces the Staggered condition as well as reducing the target to half-speed. Now his brain is messed up and dealing with shock and can't handle complex actions and he IS slow - not because he's staggered but because you cast the Slow spell on him. Removing that Slow spell let's him return to normal speed and removes the Staggered condition that was caused by the Slow spell - but if he was staggered by other means, removing the Slow spell won't remove those other Staggered conditions, just the one caused by Slow.
This is a beautiful explanation. It explains why Haste does't alleviate a condition that "replicates" slowness (restricting actions) like Staggered.
However, I think that because Slow gives the Staggered condition there is a tendency to have other things that would slow you (like extreme cold) give the Staggered condition as well. Frigid Touch, Icy Missiles, etc. all use it as a mechanic, and I don't think it is simulating mental haziness.
It is in those instances (where you are prevented from moving at full speed by an effect that hinders your movement) where it would seem that Haste could assist/cancel. Especially given the example DM_Blake supplied. If Haste makes a Staggered guy move faster, but his actions are still reduced because he isn't thinking straight makes perfect sense. Haste making a guy move faster when he is so cold he CAN'T move faster (Staggered), but his actions are still restricted seems really odd. Especially when he can actually move just as far with Haste as he could without it (move action = 60' with Haste, double move without Haste = 60').
I understand why Haste doesn't assist with the Staggered condition (regarding actions) but it seems they could have used a better "slow like" mechanic than Staggered for a lot of spells.