I know many posts exist that have very similar alterations to Weapon Finesse, but I can't find any that are exactly like this one, and I'd like some feedback:
Any weapon normally applicable for Weapon Finesse has the Finesse Quality, which gives a creature the option to use its Dex modifier on attack rolls instead of its Str modifier.
Weapon Finesse (Combat): When dealing damage with a weapon with the Finesse Quality, a creature adds its Str modifier, in addition to 1/2 (rounded up) its Dex modifier to damage, instead of just its Str modifier.
The Dervish Dance feat is not altered by this feat.
Bold-ed Edit for clarity
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I just simply give Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat to any character that meets its prerequisites. Then, I make available the Deadly Agility feat from Path of War by Dreamscarred Press. No need to change the weapon listings or change the rules. The Deadly Agility feat is also the most balanced and well designed approach to Dex-to-damage I've seen.
It's not a terrible rule, but what are you adding to strength to keep it competitive? If dex users are getting free finesse, then strength users would need something else. Maybe free power attack, and power attack feat feat replacement that lets you add double your strength to an attack.
Finesse getting Dex to damage for one feat does not outclass strength in any way. Strength as a damage dealing stat is fine, doesn't need a buff if finesse users get an easy way to deal damage. Dex doesn't scale nearly as well, since things like Enlarge Person don't really help. I'd say drop the 1/2 strength. It usually won't matter and it's just extra math.
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It's not a terrible rule, but what are you adding to strength to keep it competitive? If dex users are getting free finesse, then strength users would need something else. Maybe free power attack, and power attack feat feat replacement that lets you add double your strength to an attack.
Basically, I'm preventing munchkins from dumping Str and going for a pure Dex DPS build, which we've all seen far too many of, but I'm also making it tough for high Str-builds to over-benefit from also having a high Dex. Since Dex is already such a more valuable ability score than Str (more skills, AC, attack rolls with Weapon Finesse, and Reflex saves), I want to make Dex a valuable ability score for dealing damage, but prevent it from becoming the only necessary ability score between the two.
I give everyone Weapon Finesse for free (and Agile Maneuvers) and allow classes that get Weapon Finesse as a class feature (Swashbuckler, Rogue Talent, etc) to replace that with a Dex to damage feat (Slashing Grace, Dervish Dance, a homebrew feat)
I'm also currently playtesting this homebrew feat for my next campaign.
Benefit: When wielding a melee weapon in one hand that you adds your Dex to your attack roll, if your other hand is empty, you may add your Dex to damage instead of Str
It's not a terrible rule, but what are you adding to strength to keep it competitive? If dex users are getting free finesse, then strength users would need something else. Maybe free power attack, and power attack feat feat replacement that lets you add double your strength to an attack.
Weapon Finesse alone does not give a Dexterity character any significant advantage over a Strength. It just enables their build at the cost of damage and a feat. Power Attack, on the other hand, is a very powerful feat that gives a huge scaling bonus to damage.
It doesn't have to be power attack, but it needs to be something. Sure if all you are looking at is damage, then strength does that slightly better, but that's also about all it does. Meanwhile dexterity is also buffing AC and Reflex saves. If you are making it easier to do damage with dexterity, then you should also be doing something to allow strength to increase durability.
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Deadly Agility (Combat)
You have learned how to use your agility to greater purpose in battle.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit(s): You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when wielding a light weapon or a weapon that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat (such as the rapier) when determining additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is not reduced for off-hand weapons.
I like this feat for a number of reasons:
1) Little feat tax: The only feat requirement is Weapon Finesse. With my house rule, there's no feat tax whatsoever.
2) +1 BAB requirement: This means martials[1] can pick it up immediately (like they should be able to), but gish classes cannot until 3rd level. I like this because gish classes were the only problem I've ever had with Dexterity-to-damage. Dexterity builds are very attractive to gish classes because they offset the class's lack of armor proficiency and MAD. I hated Slashing Grace because it's easy to munchkin a magus or another gish class to become as powerful of a fighter as a Dexterity martial while still being able to cast spells and use other powerful class features. Making the gish classes wait until 3rd level is fair.
3) Strength builds still do more damage: With Deadly Agility, a Dexterity character cannot gain the benefits of two-handing weapons. Power Attack already has diminished returns for finesse weapons. So while the Dex build still has some great benefits, a Str build will still do significantly more damage.
4) It helps two-weapon fighters: As a bonus, the last line of Deadly Agility provides a huge helping hand to two-weapon fighters.
Deadly Agility was obviously very well thought out, well designed, and well playtested.
[1]Before you mention the rogue and monk not being able to pick Deadly Agility at 1st level, I always argued they should have been full BAB classes. In fact, Pathfinder Unchained will introduce revised versions of those classes that will have a full BAB.
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Weapon Finesse is totally fine, and not subject to abuse.
Deadly Agility is obviously well play tested. It's not Overpowered, and it works fine in play. It's existence somewhat devalues Strength, in that it becomes practical (optimal?) to pump DEX and dump Strength. Personally, I loath any option that make Strength irrelevant to melee damage, but that's just me. Personally, I consider it an abusive exploit when any character can dump Strength and still inflict a lot of damage in hand to hand combat.
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I know many posts exist that have very similar alterations to Weapon Finesse, but I can't find any that are exactly like this one, and I'd like some feedback:
Any weapon normally applicable for Weapon Finesse has the Finesse Quality, which gives a creature the option to use its Dex modifier on attack rolls instead of its Str modifier.
Weapon Finesse (Combat): When dealing damage with a weapon with the Finesse Quality, a creature adds its Str modifier, in addition to 1/2 (rounded up) its Dex modifier to damage, instead of just its Str modifier.
The Dervish Dance feat is not altered by this feat.
Bold-ed Edit for clarity
So basically you're giving Dex to Damage characters more damage... for free.
Let me guess... no one really bothers with strength in the campaigns you run unless they're two handed fighters?
Actually, this feat is more balanced than Deadly Agility in the sense that dumping Str has a consequence. And you're paying a feat for the OPs feat so it isn't more damage for free. And it's half dex instead of full dex.
Let's compare a Rapier with Deadly Agility vs Weapon Finesse (OP's rework)
14 Str
14 Dex
DA d6+2
WF d6+3
10 Str
16 Dex
DA d6+3
WF d6+2
7 Str
18 Dex
DA d6+4
WF d6
So the OP's feat is actually rather weak and forces your character to not dump Str as hard as all other Dex to damage feats (Dervish Dance, Slashing Grace, Deadly Agility)
Weapon Finesse is totally fine, and not subject to abuse.
Deadly Agility is obviously well play tested. It's not Overpowered, and it works fine in play. It's existence somewhat devalues Strength, in that it becomes practical (optimal?) to pump DEX and dump Strength. Personally, I loath any option that make Strength irrelevant to melee damage, but that's just me. Personally, I consider it an abusive exploit when any character can dump Strength and still inflict a lot of damage in hand to hand combat.
I agree. Deadly Agility does devalue Strength, but not enough to become a balance issue. Even with Deadly Agility, two-handed fighting with Power Attack and a high Strength is still the most powerful melee build. Adding 50% of your Strength to damage rolls and +3 damage per 4 BAB is absolutely tremendous. And finesse weapons are generally weaker, too. As a result, a Dexterity character with Deadly Agility gains a better initiative, better skills, better Reflex save, less dependency on multiple stats, better ranged attack bonus, and a higher defense at lower levels, but have a lower CMD, lower CMB, significantly less damage, and less defense at higher levels. As long as a Dexterity character can never gain the two-handed bonus, I think the trade-offs are very reasonable.
I do have a distaste for cheese builds that dump Strength, but a low Strength does make such a character have a very low carry capacity and make them extremely vulnerable to combat maneuvers, various conditions, and Strength-damaging enemies.
Honestly, as a GM, it's easier to handle dex builds in my campaigns than 20 Str Two-Handed greataxe wielding power attacking raging barbarians.
So I'd rather not discourage alternative ways to contribute to combat, and since dex builds are popular in my group, why not? They won't deal half as much damage as the barbarian even with Deadly Agility and the like, but they can do something.
(And as was established in another thread, Pathfinder favors offense over defense)
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I prefer the super simple house rule:
All weapons listed under the Weapon Finesse feat gain the "finesse" property. When making an attack roll with these weapons, you may choose to use your Str or Dex modifier.
Weapon Finesse (Combat): When you choose to use your Dex modifier on an attack roll when using a finesse weapon, you also use your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier the damage roll.
Bam. Now everyone can choose to use Dex on attack rolls and, for the price of one feat, use Dex for damage as well. It works out well since Strength is still going to win DPR in the long run, but now finesse builds of all kinds are viable.
I prefer the super simple house rule:
All weapons listed under the Weapon Finesse feat gain the "finesse" property. When making an attack roll with these weapons, you may choose to use your Str or Dex modifier.
Weapon Finesse (Combat): When you choose to use your Dex modifier on an attack roll when using a finesse weapon, you also use your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier the damage roll.
Bam. Now everyone can choose to use Dex on attack rolls and, for the price of one feat, use Dex for damage as well. It works out well since Strength is still going to win DPR in the long run, but now finesse builds of all kinds are viable.
Or you can simply use Deadly Agility, which has already been made, is more balanced, has been playtested, and even helps out the TWF...
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Or you can simply use Deadly Agility, which has already been made, is more balanced, has been playtested, and even helps out the TWF...I prefer the super simple house rule:
All weapons listed under the Weapon Finesse feat gain the "finesse" property. When making an attack roll with these weapons, you may choose to use your Str or Dex modifier.
Weapon Finesse (Combat): When you choose to use your Dex modifier on an attack roll when using a finesse weapon, you also use your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier the damage roll.
Bam. Now everyone can choose to use Dex on attack rolls and, for the price of one feat, use Dex for damage as well. It works out well since Strength is still going to win DPR in the long run, but now finesse builds of all kinds are viable.
Sorry, I thought this was the suggestions/house rules/homebrew section of the forums. My bad.
Sorry, I thought this was the suggestions/house rules/homebrew section of the forums. My bad.
...which is why I also suggested the house rule I have for my campaign where all characters receive Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat if they meet the prerequisites. With the combination of the house rule and Deadly Agility, we have a solution within the same spirit of your suggestion, but more well designed and playtested. Martials can pick up Deadly Agility right away, two-weapon fighters get a helping hand, and gish classes have to wait until 3rd level before they can dish out damage like a martial.
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Or you can simply use Deadly Agility, which has already been made, is more balanced, has been playtested, and even helps out the TWF...Weapon Finesse (Combat): When you choose to use your Dex modifier on an attack roll when using a finesse weapon, you also use your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier the damage roll.
Bam. Now everyone can choose to use Dex on attack rolls and, for the price of one feat, use Dex for damage as well. It works out well since Strength is still going to win DPR in the long run, but now finesse builds of all kinds are viable.
I just realized you tried to shut down my home brew suggestion by pointing to a feat by a 3rd party publisher, not Paizo. So, I recant my earlier politeness and would like to change my reply to:
"Stuff it, pal. My suggestion is just as good, just as balanced, just as playtested, and just as unofficial as Deadly Agility." :)
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Weapon Finesse is totally fine, and not subject to abuse.
Deadly Agility is obviously well play tested. It's not Overpowered, and it works fine in play. It's existence somewhat devalues Strength, in that it becomes practical (optimal?) to pump DEX and dump Strength. Personally, I loath any option that make Strength irrelevant to melee damage, but that's just me. Personally, I consider it an abusive exploit when any character can dump Strength and still inflict a lot of damage in hand to hand combat.
Three things. One is the example you posted is extreme. Most folks won't use a rules-exploit like that, so I'm not going to worry about that in my meta-houserule game.
Two. I really like Deadly Agility, but think it doesn't go far enough. The version I use in my game uses the exact same wordage and adds "Any ST penalties still apply" which means that a ST 8 character whose DX is 18 gets a +3 to finesse damage.
Three. You are right that this feat devalues ST a little. My solution was to give back: I allow thrown weapons to use ST or DX on the attack roll (user's choice). Also, I turned Climb (ST) into Athletics (ST) which allows a ST-dominant character to mimic Acrobatics to an extent, notably by rolling to bypass AoOs provoked by movement through threatened or occupied squares, thus affording an average-DX high-ST character some additional mobility.