Two archetypes in the same class on the same level

[blackbloodtroll]

How far is it from Absalom to Japan?

[Diekssus]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

The rules do not support an immutable flavor.

This is a very important thing for all to remember.

Even when games are very to the letter on rules, such as PFS, flavor is still a mutable thing.

In fact, in many places within the rules, it notes that flavor is mutable.

So, for those who run games with immutable flavor, they are using a Houserule.

Yes and as I've stated many times, I don't support the rules enforcing roleplaying. So I really cannot see why you are making that argument.

[Diekssus]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

How far is it from Absalom to Japan?

Considering it is actually possible to travel from Golarion to earth, who knows. distance in a tricky thing when the only described contact has been trough magical gateways. Although still completely irrelevant.

[Diekssus]

Talonhawke wrote:

Diekssus at the table how would you determine eligibility?

Considering the GM always checks a character for any eligibility. he decides obviously. And while I still don't get the point of discussing specific cases, when this has nothing to do with the point, and I'll ask again to stop that. The idea of traking where a master might have moved is stupid. If a player mentions the faith of his/her trainer, I'll make note of it, and weave that into the story if it is required. If he doesn't I might deus ex machine something into the game when it suits me. I suppose that my earlier post of people taking these arguments to extremes continuously falls on deaf ears.

[Talonhawke]

Diekssus wrote:

It really depends on the archetype in question. As a GM, I generally don't allow players to multiclass into archetypes of classes that they don't have a cultural or religious tie with (if it is one of those). Multiclassing into the more "generic" archetypes (or base classes) is generally fine if there is a reasonable explaintion for it.

This is what we are responding to, the assumption that archetypes are somehow tied to areas and groups in a world and that outside of that area apparently no one knows these variations in abilities. So the question follows do you let your players know up front and how do you determine that they can be for instance a ninja.

[thejeff]

Talonhawke wrote:

Diekssus wrote:

It really depends on the archetype in question. As a GM, I generally don't allow players to multiclass into archetypes of classes that they don't have a cultural or religious tie with (if it is one of those). Multiclassing into the more "generic" archetypes (or base classes) is generally fine if there is a reasonable explaintion for it.

This is what we are responding to, the assumption that archetypes are somehow tied to areas and groups in a world and that outside of that area apparently no one knows these variations in abilities. So the question follows do you let your players know up front and how do you determine that they can be for instance a ninja.

Since he specifically says that more generic archetypes are usually fine, I'd assume he's talking about only archetypes are specifically tied to certain regions or cultures. Which will generally be those found in specific campaign setting books or even things like AP issues.

I won't speak for him, but I assume a general statement to that effect would be made up front and details would be hashed out in play as needed. The whole ninja thing (not being an archetype, you might notice) was a strawman version of the argument and he really shouldn't be expected to defend it.

If it was me and I did want the Ninja flavor/mechanics to be restricted to pseudo-asian origins, then it would be fine if the character was from one of those countries, obviously. Though even then I might want a little info on how she learned the secret arts and obviously why she traveled to where the game started. Otherwise, I'd want some backstory fluff on whoever did teach her. I'd be willing to help flesh this out if needed. It might also be a good thing to hang later plot hooks on.
I'd much rather have this up front in backstory before the game starts, which shouldn't be too much trouble since most players plan their builds, at least to the level of multiclassing. Springing it on me in the middle of an adventure, especially with nothing but a flip "Oh, my long lost forgotten cousin told me about this when we were kids", would not help.

[Diekssus]

Talonhawke wrote:

So the question follows do you let your players know up front and how do you determine that they can be for instance a ninja.

Again not very relevant, But the players the I GM for know this of me as a GM yes. If that was your question. The reason I didn't reply to it before because it has absolutely no relation to the point made about the rules, in the rules forum.

[Komoda]

My point by the flip statement was that every single "flavor" rule can be explained away. All you have to do is let your players know what flavor works and what doesn't.

In The Last Samurai, Tom Cruz's character ends up being trained in the way of the Samurai (he was NOT the last samurai) even though he was not from that part of the world.

In Jackie Chan's Drunken Master, he pretty much comes up with the fighting style all on his own.

In The Karate Kid, Daniel learns from a master who was displaced, rather than having to be displaced himself.

There can ALWAYS be a reason. Guide the player to the reason, don't disallow the taking of a game mechanic.

As to the part about a new part of history "popping up" OF COURSE THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. Star Wars and Lord of the Rings are two of the largest fictional "worlds" to ever be created. New histories are being created for them all the time. How can you expect a player to convey the entire life history to the DM?

My most recent character has a 4 page back story that includes a few martial trainers. Only one of those trainers was developed enough to have a name. The rest are barely mentioned. Any one of them could be the person that introduced my character to the new mechanic that I want to use.

There is always room in someone's history to add a cousin that told him about some long lost "thing" that needs explaining.

[blackbloodtroll]

My points on flavor, were not irrelevant, as it was noting the relationship between rules, and flavor.

It was stated in this thread, that the rules dictate the available flavor.

I simply refuted this.

[Diekssus]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

It was stated in this thread, that the rules dictate the available flavor.

I simply refuted this.

I never said it was irrelevant, Just that I did not understand why you made the point. however considering that anything can be re-flavoured at ones discretion, it still wouldn't take away from the discussion as even re-flavoured flavour would have to have some relevance to the character. as an example. If a ninja was re-flavoured to be from Irrisen, then what, the same points of discussion would be brought up again.