Hi Guys. I am wanted to run the legality of a pathfinder build by you guys.
We have a semi home brew race that has a 1d8 bite and 2 claws at 1d6.
He however has the inability to wield weapons.
I was looking at some items and feats that i believe could make him incredibly powerful at level 10 against single foes, and disastrous against groups.
Item:
Amulet of Mighty Fists
only enchantment being speed
Feats:
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Natural Attack (claws)
STR of say 20
At level ten he can afford the amulet and have a +6 against a single favored enemy type.
From what I can tell and have read there are disputes as to whether AoMF adds speed to all natural weapons. By RAW it does.
lets say he gets swamped by goblins and he has his favored bonus against them
He gets 6 attacks at his full base attack bonus (10) plus his favored enemy (6) + str (5)
That gives him +21 to hit.
I want to work out what his potential damage would be.
Because of great cleave he could cleave 8 people if there were 8 people around him and he hits every time.
providing 6*8*(1d8+6+5)
which averages to 6*8*(15.5)
To a total dmg output on a full attack action to:
744
If he cant cleave he still gets
6*15.5
93 against his favored enemy, still very high at lvl 10 from what i can tell
744 is an absurdly high number, how many rules have i broken?
Links to important stuff:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/instantEnemy.html
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amule t-of-mighty-fists
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/speed
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/great-cleave-combat---final
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat---final
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cleave-combat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/improved-natural-attack
oh yeah i almost forgot, adding bane as the same type as the favored enemy and using the instant enemy spell just makes this even more OP
why dont you guys like me?
Nope.
This principle also applies to doing TWF with speed weapons- you only get a single extra attack total over the whole round from speed/haste.
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heh there isn't really much to discuss...you asking if something is legal, here's what going to happen:
-Poster A: I think that Speed amulet of mighty fist only benefit from one extra attack!
-Poster B: I think not! I think all natural attacks will benefit from extra attack !
-Poster C: Something about Goblin Babies and Succubus grapple.
for many posts.
It's okay, not much else to say, if your dm approves of it, good.
edit: Ah they posted a faq about it, good then.
I agree that speed weapons don't stack with haste. I understand that buffs from the same source don't stack (2 morale bonuses for example).
I don't understand however why speed on 2 different weapons wont allow you to attack once extra with each weapon.
Having the same bane enchantment on 2 different weapons applies on each hit doesn't it.
Speed allows that weapon to be wielded faster, bane makes a weapon deal more damage against a specific enemy, see what I am getting at? Bane stacks across weapons but is a similar ability, it is the same bane bonus.
In certain circumstances the bane, even as a cheaper enchantment deals more damage than speed.
Edit: I'm not exactly explaining this well
I love natural attack builds and rangers! Several aspects of this don't work, however, though I suspect you could still build something fun.
As lemeres said, AMoF of speed has been addressed several times. At the end of the day doubling your attacks for a one or two +3 enhances (for AMoF or TWF) trivializes other attack forms. Thet it is considered to fall under the rule of "similar bonuses for similar sources don't stack" is something of a meta thing - more helpful is probably to consider the wording in haste, keen, improved critical, etc... and I would say this is a good thing, considering how many monsters have significantly more than 3 attacks.
Do you really want to fight a dragon with a AMoF of speed and 10 attacks/round? =P
The only other mechanical issue I can see is that Instant Enemy allows you to treat any enemy as your favored enemy's type for the " all purposes" of the favored enemy ability. The wording is a bit opaque but I think the RAI are clear. In the line "treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes" you don't need to say "Favored enemy" if you've already designated the type, imo. I agree this is more of a grey area though.
[To be continued]
Arnakalar
What exactly is the purpose of a speed weapon then? Especially if i can get more befit by having say, holy and bane, on a weapon than speed, purely in terms of dmg output. 3d6 vs an extra attack worth 1d8.
Speed just seems like a pointless enchantment then doesnt it?
I think the bane example is an outside case as it is conditional - the general rule you see in system is that conditional bonuses tend to be double value of a consistent bonus - see bane vs. flaming, favored enemy vs. studied target.
By that metric, speed as a +3 should be ~equivalent to 3d6 damage, or 10.5. The idea that your attack is worth "1d8" is dumb and you know it - it's in your own calculations =P
For a character, even with TWF or NA vs. a 2h, an extra attack should have a significantly higher DPR than 10 (I would put a reasonable expectation for a melee damage dealer at ~30/hit for TWF or NA). You should get more from that than you would just stacking damage enhances, on top of the additional versatility of extra attacks (maneuvers, additional targets, etc.) That said, as it doesn't stack with haste effects, I would say, yeah, for many PCs and/or parties who're gonna spend their time hasted, speed is pretty pointless.
But the idea that for 36k (half the WBL of your 10th level character) you should be able to permanently double your damage doesn't seem extreme to you?
[Edit: Incidentally, I personally would allow TWF to stick a speed enchant on both their weapons - it's expensive, it isn't game breaking, and twf already lags behind 2h, polymorph, or bows in combat]
I think the fundamental issue with viable natural attack builds is that Paizo has an internal rule to restrict PCs from getting greater than three natural attacks (as inferred from the rules and class designs). Outside three (really two) cases: Wild shape, polymorphed alchemists (or whoever, but, really, alchemists), and synthesists.
The frustrating thing about this is the exceptions - I'm not allowed to make a Ranger with 5 natural attacks at 10th level, but I can trivially easily make an investigator with a 40 str, 7 natural attacks, flight, and the entirety of the rest of their alchemist powers.
By my calculations, a 12th level Ranger or Barbarian caps out in natural attack damage at around 100dpr, which is about equivalent to a 7th level polymorph investigator.
I would discuss options with your GM for ways of opening up a larger number of natural attacks to your ranger as you gain levels. At 10th, I think 4-5 is a reasonable target, and fairly in-line with TWF. This maths out pretty well to a DPR of ~125, which is in line with some other quite powerful but not totally obscene builds.
Also, I'm not including great cleave in any of these - it's a totally solid feat but it's for skirmishing - you can't full attack with a cleave anyway, so your number of attacks is totally irrelevant. Actually, did you include that in your initial calculations? Because cleave/great cleave is still strictly better for a 2h wielder than a TWF or NA as the per-attack output is greater there.
Now i agree that at lvl 10 doubling the dmg is a bit ridiculous, but the thing is a lvl 10 natural attacker has almost the same dmg as a lvl 20 natural attacker. there are NO ways for a natural attacker to boost their damage with natural attacks beyond a measly +5 enchantment on an amulet of fists. at least not that i have found.
A lvl 20 twf gets 7 attacks (or 8 with a speed enchantment) and can stack bonuses onto 2 weapons. lets say he has a +1 holy, bane, flaming, speed longsword and a +1 holy bane flaming shortsword:
that is 5*(1d6+2d6+2d6+1d6)+3*(1d4+2d6+2d6+1d6) +5* str+ 3*1/2 str
for a total of 45d6 + 6.5 str
an avg of 190
The natural attacker with a single speed bonus would get 4*(1d8+2d6+str)
for an average of 66
Tell me that that isnt absurd
How can a natural attacker compare in dmg with a twf
A few ways I can think of to let natural attackers increase they're attacks per round in a fair way:
- Allow feats that operate similarly to Rapid Shot and Imp TWF to increase your attacks per round. Something like 7th level - "Make an additional attack w/ one of your primary natural attacks. All your attacks this round take a -2 penalty." Add another feat, or just advance this one at a slightly higher level. This might be the most viable and fairly balanced - the trick is that primary natural attacks get *very* powerful at high numbers, because all your attacks are made at full BAB, str, etc. The trick is to make sure you don't trivialize TWF, who are already having a rough time.
- Allow the alchemist discovery "Vestigial Arm" to be used with natural attacks - then either splash two levels of alchemist or talk to your gm about RP or home brew ways for you to get extra arms. I ran this for a NA ranger w/ four arms and four claws, and it was a blast.
- you could talk to your GM about letting you get a custom "speed" AMoF that lets you buy and stack multiple speed enchants at a reasonable rate (say the same as for an individual weapon enchant), and rule you get +1 attack per speed enchant.
- An actually RAW valid way of getting 5 NA/round as an alchemist/barbarian relies on alter self to shapeshift into a kasatha, who naturally have four arms, then using beast totem and feral mutagen to add attacks. It works (and you get both mutagen and rage), but it's kind of a mess, and they aren't *real* claws. Plus they aren't a ranger (well, wild stalker, but that's not what we want).
(Another full barbarian variant is the Tiefling (half-orc if you can) fiend totem. Tiefling claws, fiend totem gore, and orc/animal fury bite).
Finally, I think some fair guidelines/possibly meta for what's an appropriate # of natural attacks comes from Eidolons http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons
You can see, as creatures that DO get to increase their natural attacks as they progress (not for us mortals, apparently), there's a cap on just how many you can have at any given level.
Being a 20th level full BAB class with 7 natural attacks would be pretty sick, and probably wholly outclass the poor TWF who has 7 iterative attacks with significant penalties, but it might not be totally unfair.
[Placeholder: Briefly, your numbers are super off, because you are stacking WAY more bonuses than that at 20th (or even 10th) level. I'll add the math in here in a few]
Edit: Nvm, just continued below (leaving this here for posterity)
Could i ask you to give me your opinion on the dmg calculations in my above post?
So we both agree that there needs to be a RAW way for a natural attack character to increase their attacks per round (without very complicated multiclassing and ability choices)?
Arnakalar
What exactly is the purpose of a speed weapon then? Especially if i can get more befit by having say, holy and bane, on a weapon than speed, purely in terms of dmg output. 3d6 vs an extra attack worth 1d8.
Speed just seems like a pointless enchantment then doesnt it?
Not really. It lets you get all your bonuses on another hit. Str, power attack, favored enemy/sneak attack/smite, enhancement, etc.etc. That could add up to more than the bonuses from holy- plus, for builds that use iteratives, another attack at full BAB is more valuable than extra damage on the attack that is at BAB-15.
Is speed more useful for 2 hander builds (which get x1.5 str and power attack on each hit?) Yes. Is it more useful for TWF builds since it is better than a bonus on the BAB-17 hits? Absolutely.
It is not the special ability's fault that your build doesn't get quite as large a bonus from it.
[Placeholder: Briefly, your numbers are super off, because you are stacking WAY more bonuses than that at 20th (or even 10th) level. I'll add the math in here in a few]
I agree that there are significantly more bonuses at 20th level than at 10th level. All of those bonuses would apply to each and every iterative attack correct?
All that does is exacerbate the problem, further increasing the discrepancy between a twf and a natural attack build.
Arnakalar
What exactly is the purpose of a speed weapon then? Especially if i can get more befit by having say, holy and bane, on a weapon than speed, purely in terms of dmg output. 3d6 vs an extra attack worth 1d8.
Speed just seems like a pointless enchantment then doesnt it?
Not really. It lets you get all your bonuses on another hit. Str, power attack, favored enemy/sneak attack/smite, enhancement, etc.etc. That could add up to more than the bonuses from holy- plus, for builds that use iteratives, another attack at full BAB is more valuable than extra damage on the attack that is at BAB-15.
Is speed more useful for 2 hander builds (which get x1.5 str and power attack on each hit?) Yes. Is it more useful for TWF builds since it is better than a bonus on the BAB-17 hits? Absolutely.
It is not the special ability's fault that your build doesn't get quite as large a bonus from it.
Please give me a way then to make my build even slightly compare with the dmg output of a twf, you can see by my back of the matchbox calculations that without this speed bonus it is almost impossible to compete with a twf if not completely impossible
Please give me a way then to make my build even slightly compare with the dmg output of a twf, you can see by my back of the matchbox calculations that without this speed bonus it is almost impossible to compete with a twf if not completely impossible
Ranger 5/ Evangelist 10. This gives you a spiritual form that powers you up and gives you one of a variety of special features (choice is permanent when made). One of those options is to gain a stinging tail.
With 4 natural attacks at full BAB, you are doing about as well as the 'good' attacks from TWF.
The fun thing with evangelist is that the prestige class lets you continue to level the abilities from another class after a 1 level delay.
Not saying this is necessarily the best build, or it is appropriate for everyone... but it is an example off the top of my head that allows you to match TWF.
[Placeholder: Briefly, your numbers are super off, because you are stacking WAY more bonuses than that at 20th (or even 10th) level. I'll add the math in here in a few]I agree that there are significantly more bonuses at 20th level than at 10th level. All of those bonuses would apply to each and every iterative attack correct?
All that does is exacerbate the problem, further increasing the discrepancy between a twf and a natural attack build.
It isn't a wash, because those bonuses are calculated differently for TWF versus NA, right? Additionally, iterative attacks are mechanically distinct from primary NA
I'm going to set aside 20 now, because no one plays at 20 (if *really* you want capstone damage we can talk about it). As most players play at low to mid-high levels, lets consider two cases: 3rd and 12rd (It would probably behoove us to do 8th level also, but we won't atm).
Both of our characters are 3rd level rangers, one is TWF and one is NA. Both characters have an 18 str and Power Attack. Your target AC is 15. TWF is wielding kukri for convenience.
At 3rd level: TWF is getting two attacks at +4 to hit on power attack, and deals 1d4+6/1d4+3 for 14 damage. She's hitting 50% of the time for a DPR of 7 (Incidentally, 2h saved a feat and is swinging for 16 60% of the time for 10dpr (and can take move actions). Favored enemy pushes this to 11. TWF is critting a bit less than 3x NA, but this isn't v. meaningful yet.
NA took INA(claws) (+1 damage/feat isn't normally worth it, but we take this for reasons that will only matter later. Also bonus feat). She has 3 attacks at +6 for 1d8+6 for a dpr of 19. Nearly triple TWF. With FE that's 27.
Fast forward to 12th level. Both characters have a str of 24, BAB 12, and the equivalent of two +3 weapons, but TWF just got a buff in the form of greater TWF and now has 6 attacks. Both our Rangers have enlarge person up (this is mandatory for NA, so we'll give it to TWF). Our new target AC is 27 (these are coming from Monster Statistics by CR).
TWF is using 2 +1 holy kukri and has double slice & weapon focus, why not. Her attack routine looks like this: +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5 with PA. Her chance to hit is 40%, 15%, and 5%, respectively. Ow. This actually gives her a DPR of... 27 (discounting crits). At this point, TWF cannot afford to use PA most of the time. W/o PA she's looking at 40dpr. With flanking and FE, she can afford to power attack and gets back up to 99 dpr sans crits (which ceases being fair in this case, but I don't want to deal w/ it atm).
At 12th level, NA looks a little different. First off, she's running GMF, and has a Holy Frost AMoF. She's also running strongjaw and her 3 NAs are now dealing 4d6, the equivalent to Colossal+ creature. Her routine is +21/+21/+21 or +17s w/ PA. She still can't afford to PA every time, but her DPR is 70 sans crits. Under ideal conditions (FE + Flank) you get 128.
In addition to always attacking at your full BAB & saving feats, natural attack damage by size scales vastly different than weapon damage, and is easier to pump (namely strongjaw and INA).
Incidentally, the same character with 5 natural attacks (and no penalties) under ideal conditions is approaching 200 DPR, which is comparable to an optimized Inquisitor, but still lacking compared to a vivisectionist beastmorph alchemist or investigator.
So I assert NA is actually better than TWF at all levels that matter, even without a buff.[Edit 2 - see below]
[Edit 1 - Cleaned up some grammar.]
Another fun calculation, while we're at it, is "how much better is Slayer than Ranger?"
Studied target gives half FE bonuses, but in addition to not being conditional, you're also getting sneak attack, why not, so the same kukri wielding ranger as a slayer is typically doing 125dpr aka the ranger's best day. On a truly bad day the slayer's got ~85dpr, and hanging out w/ a bard or support cleric you're getting on toward 175-200dpr.
I'm also not being totally fair to TWF, because that ranger has also started picking up critical feats.
Actually wait, Slayer's got improved critical, obviously, which pushes her to 170dpr, and TWF Ranger pushes up to 150/75, with or without FE, respectively.
So, I take it back: It looks like they're comparable at mid-high levels.
HOw are her 3 NA's dealing 4d6 each, i understand the enlarge person steps it up a step from 1d6 to 1d8, and strongjaw is not something i have ever heard about actually. I must have done my maths VERY wrong.
why is the fighters ruitine not higher than +15 max. His BAB is 12, str is +7, only -2 for TWF, that gives 17, not 15. i think i missed something too
In reverse order: at Bab 12 power attack gives -4 to hot for all attacks, +8 1h (+12 2h, +4 off hand). TWF's primary looks like this: 12 BAB + 7 str + 1 enhance + 1 focus - 2 TWF for +19 w/o power attack. W/ PA is 15, which is why she can't afford to use it. Adding +8 for FE and Flanking however gives you enough room to use PA (though it may not be worth it anyways, depending).
Strongjaw is a Ranger 3/Druid 4 spell: "Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead. This spell does not actually change the creature's size; all of its statistics except the amount of damage dealt by its natural attacks remain unchanged." http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw
A fun note: RAW, if you are a druid and wild shape into a Behemoth Hippo or Allosaurus, strongjaw & animal growth (you have animal soul) yourself, you don't just double your frankly ridiculous damage dice - you double YOUR DAMAGE. Any sane GM won't allow this of course, but it's hilarious if it does happen. Even without that specific silliness: Allosaurus drood has a str of 36, deals (8d6+13), 2-4 claws 4d6+13, and pounce.
If you were a gargantuan behemoth hippo with INA (bite), vital strike, and strong jaw, you would deal 16d8+25x2(19-20 crit) (~200 damage) at 10th level. Hilarious!
Finally, your 4d6 claw/claw/bite: Your GM has given you size large base NA for 1d8/1d6/1d6 (see Universal monster rules or strongjaw, above). Unlike artifical weapons, natural weapons double in die size per 2 size categories you increase. INA(claws) increases your claws to huge claws - 1d8 (conveniently balancing all your natural attacks). This modifies your base claw damage and isn't an "treat <attack> as x size categories larger", which is the wording for strongjaw, impact, lead blades, etc. Now you get hit with enlarge person, and your NAs jump from 1d8 to 2d6 - +2.5 per attack! Then you strongjaw, which increases your die size by 2 categories giving you 4d6, or a difference of +7/attack.
Oh, one final comparison:
A 12th vivisectionist beastmorph alchemist polymorphed into a four-armed gargoyle has a str of ~4236, an AC of 30-odd, and with 7 natural attacks, pounce, and sneak attack a dpr of ~400.
well s**t... this was a build i was looking at for a friend of mine, he is playing an awakened bear race basically.
I actually play a druid so that last hippo point is something i WILL try :P.
you have been incredibly helpful, thank you. Expect some pm's from me Arnakalar :P
"Unlike artifical weapons, natural weapons double in die size per 2 size categories you increase"
Please clarify that?
Belatedly -
"Unlike artificial weapons, natural weapons double in die size per 2 size categories you increase"
Please clarify that?
Sorry; not super important. What I meant was that at 'normal' sizes, say tiny to large, manufactured weapons typically scale similarly to natural attacks - ~+1 average per size increase. However two/three factors make stacking size bonuses for natural attacks significantly better than for manufactured attacks. The first is that at huge+ size equivalents, natural attacks typically scale for more damage - for example the jump from gargantuan to colossal being +5 per attack. Going from medium (1d4) to colossal claws (4d6) is an increase of 11.5. A colossal dagger will only deal 3d6 - but more importantly, the 2rd/3rd reasons are that 2) it is much easier to increase the effective size of natural attacks and 3) such effects usually affect a creature (and all their attacks), rather than a weapon. Strongjaw increases all attacks by 2 size categories, and INA increases all of one type by 1. Most creatures are gonna have 3-7 attacks that are being increased (or one wild attack in the behemoth hippo case, where properly applied strongjaw adds 8d6(!)).
Basically stacking size buffs synergizes better w/ NA.
he is playing an awakened bear race basically.
That sounds boss as f*#@. I'd encourage your GM/player/you to try to figure out a way to make it work and feel fun a fair.
Are you guys using the race creation rules for balancing the bear? I've found it a pretty useful GM tool for custom races, but one to be used with caution as it can get way out of control.
My instinct is that the bear should probably have medium size attacks - 3 starting natural attacks is pretty powerful, and it seems likely the bear will probably be pretty solid either way. I'd probably make a bear race +2 Con +2 Wis -2... something? Dex/Int maybe. Or +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int or Wis (1RP), +2 NA (3RP), Bite 1d6 (3RP), 2 Claws 1d4 (2RP). That's what, 9? Seems alright, if a little boring.
After thinking about the getting extra natural attacks, I'm not totally sure you need a way to flatly add more primary attacks, but I realized there is a precident: Animal Companion Multiattack.
If you get one natural attack, you get a second attack; if you have >1, you get... almost always nothing. ACs rarely have secondary NAs.
What if we rewrote Multiattack to:
Prerequisite: Three One or more natural attacks. 6HD.
Benefit: If the creature has 3 or more natural attacks, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
If the creature has fewer than three natural attacks, the creature may make an additional natural attack with one of its natural weapons on a full attack. All attacks this round take a -2 penalty. This may not be combined with manufactured weapon attacks
Then there could be a 'Improved Multiattack' at ~14th level, leaving you with 5 attacks at the end of the day, which is a pretty big number.