I think the title pretty much sums it up. We're working with 15 Point Buy. Human, though I'm currently favoring passing up the bonus feat for an extra +2 to my abilities. Intelligence and Wisdom are acceptable to lower.
Strangler brawler archetype.
Ninja class.
The main idea is a serial killer-esque strangler (but not actually evil). I'd like to exploit Sap Master a bit if at all possible.
Any tips?
Grapple them, then pin them. Maintain the grapple as a move action via Greater Grapple. Pinned opponents are denied their dex bonus to AC. Use your standard action to deal damage with unarmed strike, which would then allow you to use your sneak attack damage.
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Pick Half-Orc, gain a bite attack that you can apply Sneak Attack damage to. Go with a high Strength build and medium dex...maybe:
Half-Orc (+2 racial to Str)
17str, 14dex, 14con, 7int, 10wis, 12cha
Increase Str to 18 @ 4th level and Int to 8 @ 8th level if playing PFS. Otherwise, you can probably just live with the 7int and instead raise Dex @ 8th and @ 12th.
If you try to go high dex build you're going to be sinking feats to be able to use Dex for CMB and CMD checks, among other things...and you're damage will also be pitiful, unless you get Sneak Attack damage...and if something is immune to SA then you're pretty worthless damage wise. Albeit you could make your weapon "Agile"...but then you got to do that for ever weapon you use, if it gets sundered, destroyed, or you get disarmed then you're back to doing crap damage.
Trust me, a Str build with getting Grapple feats will work best. You can sink a feat or two into Stealth boosters like Skill Focus: Stealth and then pickup Hellcat Stealth to hide in plain sight instead of waiting your feats on Agile Maneuvers and crap to just be able to do the same thing that an Str build does right out of the box.
Also, you'll be equipped with Darkvision so you're not denied SA in dim or dark lighting as you'll be able to clearly see your enemy. And once again, you have a natural attack that you can include on a full attack to deal another Sneak Attack with so you're doubling your SA dice if you get to sneak up and Full Attack.
Just my two cents. I've seen a lot of Rogue/Ninjas played and I've played my fair share of them. I'm currently enjoying my 2hand Katana Str based Half-Orc Ninja atm as she's able to drop targets pretty quickly.
Btw, if you drop Wis lower than 10....expect to get dominated and murder your team unwillingly....or something worse. Dumping Wis is a very, very, very bad idea for a Rogue or Ninja. Just throwing that warning out there before you make the character and some caster just owns you at the start of combat and you sit there stunned for the entire fight or the GM gets to play your character for you via Dominate Person for the rest of combat.
Pressure points(the ninja trick) plus the grapple feats will allow you to do a lot of stat damage without taking a lot of ninja levels. Very few things have high strength and dexterity.
A ninja with this trick can strike at an opponent's vital pressure points, causing weakness and intense pain. Whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she also deals 1 point of Strength or Dexterity damage, decided by the ninja. Unlike normal ability damage, this damage can be healed by a DC 15 Heal check. Each successful check heals 1 point of damage caused by this trick. A ninja with this trick receives a +10 insight bonus on this Heal check.
Pick Half-Orc, gain a bite attack that you can apply Sneak Attack damage to. Go with a high Strength build and medium dex...maybe:
Like I said, I'm playing a human.
My current stat array plan, with human, is:16 Str
16 Dex
14 Con
7 Int
10 Wis
13 Cha
Pretty similar to yours, just with slightly less emphasis on Strength and a bit more on Dexterity. I may reduce Wisdom a bit (no lower than 8)—weak spots make a character interesting, and it'd allow me to boost something more important to the character.
If you try to go high dex build you're going to be sinking feats to be able to use Dex for CMB and CMD checks, among other things...and you're damage will also be pitiful, unless you get Sneak Attack damage...and if something is immune to SA then you're pretty worthless damage wise.
Given that this is a grappling build, he's not gonna be happy no matter what if he has to fight oozes or the like.
I'm planning to invest more in Dex than Strength, but not to any severe degree. This character is meant to be a stealthy guy, a bit quicker than he is strong.
Also, you'll be equipped with Darkvision so you're not denied SA in dim or dark lighting as you'll be able to clearly see your enemy. And once again, you have a natural attack that you can include on a full attack to deal another Sneak Attack with so you're doubling your SA dice if you get to sneak up and Full Attack.
Hm...tempting. I'll probably have to look into a way to get Darkvision some other way. Ebon Wayfinder looks cool.
I was thinking at least four or five levels of ninja. More than that and it starts slowing things down something fierce, but I'd like to bring my Sneak Attack up and wrangle a couple talents like Vanishing Trick.
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Pick Half-Orc, gain a bite attack that you can apply Sneak Attack damage to. Go with a high Strength build and medium dex...maybe:Like I said, I'm playing a human.
My current stat array plan, with human, is:
16 Str
16 Dex
14 Con
7 Int
10 Wis
13 Cha
Pretty similar to yours, just with slightly less emphasis on Strength and a bit more on Dexterity. I may reduce Wisdom a bit (no lower than 8)—weak spots make a character interesting, and it'd allow me to boost something more important to the character.
If you try to go high dex build you're going to be sinking feats to be able to use Dex for CMB and CMD checks, among other things...and you're damage will also be pitiful, unless you get Sneak Attack damage...and if something is immune to SA then you're pretty worthless damage wise.Given that this is a grappling build, he's not gonna be happy no matter what if he has to fight oozes or the like.
I'm planning to invest more in Dex than Strength, but not to any severe degree. This character is meant to be a stealthy guy, a bit quicker than he is strong.
Also, you'll be equipped with Darkvision so you're not denied SA in dim or dark lighting as you'll be able to clearly see your enemy. And once again, you have a natural attack that you can include on a full attack to deal another Sneak Attack with so you're doubling your SA dice if you get to sneak up and Full Attack.Hm...tempting. I'll probably have to look into a way to get Darkvision some other way. Ebon Wayfinder looks cool.
I was thinking at least four or five levels of ninja. More than that and it starts slowing things down something fierce, but I'd like to bring my Sneak Attack up and wrangle a couple talents like Vanishing Trick.
You're a Human, you can take Fast Learner and get Skill Focus: Stealth at 1st, Skill Focus: SomethingElse at 8th, and Skill Focus: etc at 16th. A +1 to dex mod isn't going to be useful compared to a +1 to str mod that allows you to land your hits more often. As a Ninja you'll have options like Vanishing Trick and Shadow Clone to avoid getting targetted.
You could take the trait "Blood of Dragons" to gain Low-Light Vision. Might be a way to gain Darkvision from there. Not sure where Ebon Wayfinder is from.
EDIT: Charisma won't matter much either since, from the looks of it, you're not taking any of the tricks that use Charisma as a DC save. The only thing it'll help with is +1 ki point and +1 to cha skills.
A +1 to Str isn't going to make that much of a difference, either. It's a +1. I'd rather put the +1 into agility than strength.
Ki points are useful if I want to use Vanishing Trick more than once a day, which would be nice. I could probably get by with just a 12, though. It does depend on how many ninja levels I take—if just two or three, I definitely want a Charisma bonus so I can hit my minimum threshold.
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A +1 to Str isn't going to make that much of a difference, either. It's a +1. I'd rather put the +1 into agility than strength.
Ki points are useful if I want to use Vanishing Trick more than once a day, which would be nice. I could probably get by with just a 12, though. It does depend on how many ninja levels I take—if just two or three, I definitely want a Charisma bonus so I can hit my minimum threshold.
Not wanting to cause an argument but a lot of people here would beg to differ. A +1 to hit on a 3/4 BAB class (Ninja) can be the difference between hitting and not hitting. This is true for 2handing, twf, natural attacks, or additional attacks once you reach 6+ BAB, etc. A Rogue/Ninja only does decent damage when they can Sneak Attack and since they aren't full BAB classes they need all the extra to-hit they can get.
You failed to read the Ninja Ki Pool description also. It's Charisma mod + 1/2 Ninja level. With the entirety of my comments I'm assuming you're playing 100% a Ninja. You did mention the Brawler class but you've not said exactly how many levels of Ninja and Brawler and it seems you're not entirely sure yet. So, assuming you're taking 2 levels of Ninja you'll have 2 Ki Points a day, 4 levels of Ninja you'll have 3 Ki Points a day. If you went 10 Ninja you could get the Invisible Blade advanced trick and have 6 Ki Points a day...which is one (but not all) of the reasons people generally take Ninja. There's also items that you can use to regain Ki Points during the day.
You'd have to get approval from a GM (says Monks & Paladins, GM might let Ninja fly) and be of the same faith as your Cleric in the party (if you have one) and they'd need to be willing to expend some of their Channels per day but you could buy a Meditation Crystal from the Adventure Armory splatbook for 100gp. Alternatively, you could buy a Ki Mat or Amulet of Hidden Strength to regain Ki Points but they are a bit more expensive.
Ebon Wayfinder is interesting. Seems to be PFS legal, which is where I play 100% of my games...but it has the abilities until you put ioun stones in it and then the abilities cease to function? Seems odd but a good buy.
That's all the suggestions I have. Good luck.
You failed to read the Ninja Ki Pool description also.
Um, no. No, I didn't. It's Charisma mod + 1/2 ninja level. Like I said:
I could probably get by with just a 12, though. It does depend on how many ninja levels I take—if just two or three, I definitely want a Charisma bonus so I can hit my minimum threshold.
A +1 Charisma bonus is necessary for 2/day if I don't go past level 3, barring magic items.
With the entirety of my comments I'm assuming you're playing 100% a Ninja.
Then apparently you failed to read my posts. Or the thread title. In particular, this:
I was thinking at least four or five levels of ninja. More than that and it starts slowing things down something fierce...
It does depend on how many ninja levels I take—if just two or three, I definitely want a Charisma bonus so I can hit my minimum threshold.
Not wanting to cause an argument but a lot of people here would beg to differ. A +1 to hit on a 3/4 BAB class (Ninja) can be the difference between hitting and not hitting.
A +1 to AC when I don't get more than light armor can be the difference between hitting and not hitting. But by all means, continue to give advice for alternate builds and ignore what I'm asking about. I'm sure someone will find use in it.
but it has the abilities until you put ioun stones in it and then the abilities cease to function?
That's how wayfinders work. Though the Darkvision sticks—it's just the darkness you lose. Most wayfinders don't even have the option of putting two ioun stones in, so that loss isn't too sorely felt.
I May be missing some point here but i do t Think the sneek attack from strangler and the sneek from ninja stack so i think it is wasted to have both ATs.
But this did inspire me to a dex based goblin strangler:)
Sneak Attack is generally assumed to stack between classes, to my understanding.
Sneak Attack is generally assumed to stack between classes, to my understanding.
exept the stranglers sneek attack miss that text and seem to work at a time where no one elses does.
No, it doesn't.
The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability
They still need a flank. They just get to count grappling as flanking. Moreover, it is deliberately called out as being sneak attack damage.
Ninja sneak attack will not be added unless they are flanked or denied their Dex bonus for another reason, obviously, which I indirectly referenced in the first post. That could be what's throwing you.
the sneek attack of the strangler have a very different text than every other sneek attack in the book. And normal sneek attack dosent seem to Apply to grabbeling damage.
Edit: Or pehaps it works i just looked at the rules again:)
Any Way i Think going either str focus or dex focus is the Way i Think.
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I was thinking at least four or five levels of ninja. More than that and it starts slowing things down something fierce...
It does depend on how many ninja levels I take—if just two or three, I definitely want a Charisma bonus so I can hit my minimum threshold.
Like I said, you have no idea where you're stopping with Ninja. One post you say at least 4-5 levels and another post saying 2-3. That's why I was talking about the Ninja in general......
Not wanting to cause an argument but a lot of people here would beg to differ. A +1 to hit on a 3/4 BAB class (Ninja) can be the difference between hitting and not hitting.
A +1 to AC when I don't get more than light armor can be the difference between hitting and not hitting. But by all means, continue to give advice for alternate builds and ignore what I'm asking about. I'm sure someone will find use in it.
Vanishing Trick and Shadow Clone are used to avoid getting hit. You don't "Vanishing Trick" to your target and sneak attack them...especially with your limited pool. You use your Stealth skill, sneak attack the enemy, then swift action Vanishing Trick to provide a miss chance and then setup for another sneak attack. You can Shadow Clone beforehand if needed for to provide a 50-80% miss chance (1-4 mirror images).
If you're going only 2-4 levels of Ninja you might as well go with vanilla rogue, or archetype, that retains Evasion and just spend 1 Rogue talent to get a Ki Pool based on Int mod and then another Rogue Talent to select a Ninja Trick of Vanishing Trick if that's all you're going for. Then you can spend a feat for Extra Ki. I'm sure there's an archetype that would give more benefits (Knife Master, Chameleon, Thug, or Burglar).
but it has the abilities until you put ioun stones in it and then the abilities cease to function?That's how wayfinders work. Though the Darkvision sticks—it's just the darkness you lose. Most wayfinders don't even have the option of putting two ioun stones in, so that loss isn't too sorely felt.
The webpage's wording was a little bit weird. I guess I understand it now that if you only have 1 ioun stone in it functions with 1 ability and with 2 ioun stones it functions with a different ability...but both abilities are not able to function at the same time. I was reading it at first that actually slotting ioun stones in it disabled both abilities, so that the wayfinder's abilities only worked when it was empty. I see what it means now.
Trying not to jump on peoples backs so quickly when replying. We are trying to help here...Maybe you have a lot of experience with Rogues...I for one have played the Rogue and Ninja quite a bit so I'm just trying to give you the best advice from my experiences. Ninja typically isn't a very good class to dip 2-5 levels in.
EDIT: Rogues/Ninjas typically grab "Offensive Defense" to also help avoid getting hit. But you wouldn't get much mileage since you're doing a 2-5 dip (+1-3AC after sneak attacking). Rogues that rely on flat AC and try to stick around the frontline with other melee typically find themselves creating a new character after a few sessions.