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Can the feat Weapon Versatility be applied to natural weapons ?
No. your paws are not an object separate from yourself.
The spell target is very clear on this. it's "one weapon".
EEerrrr...no...not the spell (I know what your talking about...but that's not what I'm talking about)....
Weapon Versatility (Combat)
You can use your favored weapons in unconventional ways.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by that weapon. You may switch back to the weapon’s normal damage type or another damage type as a swift action. If your base attack bonus is +5 or higher, using this feat is a free action instead.
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How does one "shift your grip" on a natural weapon?
Standard punch - Bludgeoning Damage
Sounds kosher to me.
Also, RAW is it works. Doesn't say it can't be an Unarmed strike, so have fun.
How does one "shift your grip" on a natural weapon?
Character in question is a Changeling Bloodrager (Abysal)
She has a natural claw/claw attack (slashing)Was hoping to use this feat to allow her to just punch (bludg)
or shove her hand into someones chest (piercing)...etc...etc...
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How does one "shift your grip" on a natural weapon?
Irrelevant.
This feat can already be used with the Unarmed Strike, Armor Spikes, Boot Blades, Barbazu Beards, Dwarven Boulder Helmets, and Gauntlets.
Do not take a small bits of flavor text, and use it to change RAW.
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Again, you can't go by not finding a "you can't". You have to find a "you can'.How does one "shift your grip" on a natural weapon?Standard punch - Bludgeoning Damage
Nukite - Piercing Damage
Shuto-uchi - Slashing Damage.
Sounds kosher to me.
Also, RAW is it works. Doesn't say it can't be an Unarmed strike, so have fun.
Can you have Weapon Focus with Unarmed Strike?
Yes, you can.
Does this require you to have Weapon Focus, and work with a weapon that has Weapon Focus?
Yes it does.
Does it say in any way that you can't use it with certain weapons?
No it doesn't - it just says it has to be a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus.
Ergo, yes, RAW, it's perfectly legal.
Anything else is a houserule.
You're taking RAI and applying it as RAW.
RAI, other things like Tekko Kagi wouldn't work, nor a Scizore. RAW, though, it works for those, and it works for Unarmed since it doesn't say otherwise.
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Since you can take Weapon Focus/claw (at least that's my understanding)..it seemed like it would logically work....
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Since you can take Weapon Focus/claw (at least that's my understanding)..it seemed like it would logically work....
It does. LazarX is taking a bit of explanation (the line, "shift your grip") in order to find a rule that isn't there.
As Blackboodtroll and I have said, it doesn't say you can't use it with Unarmed Strike, nor does it say you can't use it with any weapon that doesn't require you to "grip" it.
You don't "grip" shield spikes, you don't really "grip" tekko kagi, you literally cannot "grip" anything with a scizore (it restrains your hand), good luck trying to "grip" a boot blade, just like the scizore you are not shifting ANYTHING with a Pata, least of all your "grip" (as it's stuck DAMN tight to your forearm).
He's applying RAI as RAW, and, no, it doesn't say it MUST be with a weapon that has a physical grip - it just says it MUST be with a weapon which you have Weapon Focus with.
As I demonstrated, it takes about as much imagination as a 2nd grader to understand how an unarmed punch attack can be altered to either pierce or slash; I can't see much different for any other Natural attack.
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"Shifting your grip" could also be used euphamistically for attacking in a manner that is unconventional for the weapon.
Totally doable.
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No. your paws are not an object separate from yourself.
The spell target is very clear on this. it's "one weapon".
Your lack of understanding how this game works is painful.
You transform the physical makeup of a weapon as you desire. This spell functions like greater magic weapon, except that it subtly alters the physical properties of a weapon, enabling it to bypass damage reduction of one the following types: bludgeoning, cold iron, piercing, silver, or slashing. The affected weapon still inflicts damage of its normal type and its hardness and hit points are unchanged. This spell can be cast on a natural weapon or unarmed strike.
I know this isn't even what the OP was talking about, but it needs to be called out.
A few things:
1) Unarmed Strikes are Weapons. They are Simple Weapons in the Unarmed Category (which is separate from Light - look it up in Weapons on either the PRD or d20pfsrd).
2) Any spell like Magic Weapon can work on Simple Weapons as well.
3) Not only does "one weapon", meaning ANY Weapon, even Unarmed Strikes, justify its use with Unarmed Strikes, this spell itself calls out that, yes, it can be used with both unarmed and natural weapons
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Again, you can't go by not finding a "you can't". You have to find a "you can'.How does one "shift your grip" on a natural weapon?Standard punch - Bludgeoning Damage
Nukite - Piercing Damage
Shuto-uchi - Slashing Damage.
Sounds kosher to me.
Also, RAW is it works. Doesn't say it can't be an Unarmed strike, so have fun.
Neither of those assertions would be valid in all circumstances. "It doesn't say you can't" and "it doesn't say you can" are both basically meaningless without being built on a baseline assertion.
If the base assertion is a positive one ("you can"), then a counter to it must be a negative one ("you can't"). And visa-versa.
This example is a positive assertion that says "you can" do X with Y and the attack in question fits the description of X, so therefor to *not* be able to use it requires a further portion in its rules that says "you can't". There isn't one, so it works.
Claws are already S/B, why bother with a feat to add P?
Claws are already S/B, why bother with a feat to add P?
maybe it's a swashbuckler
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Semantics of the feat aside (which is in the Undead Slayer's Handbook, for those who are looking for it), there is something in the description which helps settle this question.
This feat requires Weapon Focus. As any Black Dragon can tell you, you can take Weapon Focus for your Bite attack, which is a natural weapon. This sets a precedent for feats which are children of Weapon Focus. Therefore, we do have a clear rule that indicates that Weapon Versatility can be used with Natural Weapons.
Claws are already S/B, why bother with a feat to add P?
I thought claws where only slashing ???
If it's true they can already count as bludgeoning...I may indeed need to reconsider my net gain....
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Claws are already S/B, why bother with a feat to add P?I thought claws where only slashing ???
If it's true they can already count as bludgeoning...I may indeed need to reconsider my net gain....
In fact, they're B and S, not just B or S, which is even better. Bites are even better than that since they count as all three (specific exceptions exist, like a Toothy half-orc which is only P).
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Natural-Attacks
The table gives damage type as "B and S" for claw...
Interesting that there are separate entries for "claw" and "talon" :(
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How many creatures even have DR/Piercing? DR/Slashing and DR/Bludgeoning are both pretty common but I don't think I've ever fought a creature with DR/Piercing.
The table gives damage type as "B and S" for claw...
Interesting that there are separate entries for "claw" and "talon" :(
Talons seem to be mostly on the feet of avians or some dinosaurs, while claws can be on their hands. There is FAQ about whether you can add claws to your feet or not here
How many creatures even have DR/Piercing? DR/Slashing and DR/Bludgeoning are both pretty common but I don't think I've ever fought a creature with DR/Piercing.
I can't think of any....
Rakshasha is the only one I can recall, and that's DR 15/good and piercing
Shifting your grip is in the mechanics line of the text, not the fluff section. This is no-go.
In my game a natural weapon user would need to Pick style feats to make her claws do piercing damage.
It Can be done even with natural weapons that Way. I dont know if the change grip is a flavor part of the rules text and i dont Think a spell with same name as the feat is relevant in any Way.
The feat is a Nice Way around the golf bag figther but the bludgeoning falchio that still crit on 15-20 makes no sense to me.
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Shifting your grip is in the mechanics line of the text, not the fluff section. This is no-go.
I must have missed the "Shifting your grip" rule. Where is it at and what items does it list are allowed to be used with it? Only manufactured? Only hand held? And does it explain how you 'shift your grip' on say brass knuckles or a Scizore but not unarmed or natural? I'm quite curious to hear all about this new rule.
Shifting your grip is in the mechanics line of the text, not the fluff section. This is no-go.I must have missed the "Shifting your grip" rule. Where is it at and what items does it list are allowed to be used with it? Only manufactured? Only hand held? And does it explain how you 'shift your grip' on say brass knuckles or a Scizore but not unarmed or natural? I'm quite curious to hear all about this new rule.
I believe it is in chapter 23 of the Core Rulebook.
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I believe it is in chapter 23 of the Core Rulebook.Shifting your grip is in the mechanics line of the text, not the fluff section. This is no-go.I must have missed the "Shifting your grip" rule. Where is it at and what items does it list are allowed to be used with it? Only manufactured? Only hand held? And does it explain how you 'shift your grip' on say brass knuckles or a Scizore but not unarmed or natural? I'm quite curious to hear all about this new rule.
Page 601?
Shifting your grip is in the mechanics line of the text, not the fluff section. This is no-go.I must have missed the "Shifting your grip" rule. Where is it at and what items does it list are allowed to be used with it? Only manufactured? Only hand held? And does it explain how you 'shift your grip' on say brass knuckles or a Scizore but not unarmed or natural? I'm quite curious to hear all about this new rule.
Just because the rules dont lay something out in detail does not make it fluff. As an example the polearm fighter shifts his grip to use a polearm to attack adjacent squares. There is also an FAQ on shifting your grip between a one-handed and two-handed weapon, and it says is a free action.
If you are going to be a jerk at least be sure there is no precedent for a counter.
Now I am expecting for you to move the goal-post and say this is not about one-handed and two-handed weapon grip changes, but you only asked about "Shifting your grip" in general.
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How much of fluff text, are we now considering RAW?
Let's look at some examples:
Spear Dancer (Combat)
You incorporate your two-handed reach weapon into a dizzying martial dance.Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (any two-handed reach weapon), Perform (dance) 4 ranks.
Benefit: Each time you hit a creature with a two-handed reach weapon that you have Weapon Focus in, the creature is dazzled for 1 round.
So, must you be dancing to use this feat? Can you use it prone?
Punishing Kick (Combat)
Your kicks are so powerful you use them to push or knock back your foes.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). On a successful hit, the attack deals damage normally and you can choose to push your target 5 feet or attempt to knock them prone. If you decide to push the target, it is moved 5 feet directly away from you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and the target must end this move in a safe space it can stand in. If you decide to attempt to knock the target prone, the target receives a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom modifier to avoid the effect. You may attempt a punishing kick attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round.
Special: A hungry ghost monk receives Punishing Kick as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a punishing kick attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
Can this feat be used with any unarmed strike, or kicks only?
BBT you keep bolding flavor text.
The words above the pre-req are always flavor text. You know that.
The words after that are the mechanical text.
As for your shift question nobody making snide comments make a distinction before I pointed to official text so it seems that certain people wanted to be snarky instead of actually check the book.
Shifting your grip means using the weapon in a manner to do a differnet damage type because that is what the feat says. You can't even shift your grip on a natural weapon because you don't grip your natural weapon, so matter what it means it can't apply to natural weapons.
You can't really shift a grip if you don't have a grip. That is just like if the feat said "you can move your hands to the pommel of the weapon" then trying to say "pommel" is not defined in the rules so it can apply to natural weapons.
I bolded the flavor text on purpose.
What you are suggesting, is that only "gripped" weapons can benefit from this feat.
It doesn't place this restriction, but let's, for a moment, pretend it exists.
What makes a weapon qualify as a "gripped" weapon?
I am sure you can answer that. Standard english refer to gripped as "held", and how you hold it is how you grip it. The book says you must change your "grip", so if you can't even change your grip explain how this feat is working.
What did you expect for me say grip meant? If you want to argue that every word in the book requires an entry into the glossary a lot of the rules can be made to be meaningless.
Okay.
So, for you, it must have a handle of sorts, and be held, in a hand, or hands, or it fails to work with this feat.
This is a correct explanation of the restrictions you feel this feat has?
I think the weapon must be able to be gripped since it is not flavor text. Every other time Paizo has mentioned grips in the mechanical section it applied to manufactured weapons. Otherwise they have just put flavor text in the mechanical section.
So either:
Changing your grip is actually a requirement, meaning no natural weapons can work with this feat <--My answer
or
Paizo is putting flavor text in the mechanical section.
Do you really think they are putting flavor text in the mechanical text for this feat?
or
Do you think the devs forgot to mention "this change of grip only applies to manufactured weapon"
or
<insert other reason why you think that wording is used, but is not really meant to apply> "Paizo wrote the feat badly, and it needs errata" would work if you want to use that.
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I think it is worded badly.
If it said: "When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can, as a swift action, change the damage the weapon deals to bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by that weapon. You may switch back to the weapon's normal damage type or another damage type as a swift action."
There would be no problem. No confusion.
Now, we have a feat that seems to be able to apply to any weapon for which you have Weapon Focus, but has an apparent "hidden restriction", according to many, due to some minor wording.
I did press the FAQ button, and if you think it is bad wording I think you should also, assuming you have not done it already. I don't think it would be broken, but I do think they did not intend to allow it to apply to natural attacks for some reason.