Advice from those who have run it before...


Wrath of the Righteous

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Thinking of running it...
Any advices on what to take from those DM's that have already ventured so far? :-)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

You'll get plenty of advice, don't worry. :)

A couple of questions. Have you been GMing long? Are you particularly attached to the Mythic subsystem? Are your players experienced with the Pathfinder system? Have you read the Path yet?

A lot of GMs are critical of the Path as written, and while some are more passionate than I am about it, they aren't wrong. No matter what, you'll have to do some rewrites. Please answer those questions, and I'll be able to better help. :)


Been GMing for ages. I believe it would be near ten years now. Damn, getting old :D

Not particularly, but thought it might be fun to have "extras".

Players range from 4/10 tot 10/10 on the experienced chart.

Read parts of the Path, but not completely. Been browsing the forums here though.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I see. I'll try to get back in more detail later. I assume that you're still considering, meaning no knowledge of party makeup and such. (My best work is in customized content.)

The Mythic ruleset is horribly easy to break. If you want to keep it (and I don't think that's as bad an idea as others have suggested), I would recommend tweaking some abilities and removing others.

Some of the encounters are a bit... anemic, to put it lightly. If you've ever considered setting aside the xp system, now might be a good time to try. Again, not explicitly necessary, but even if you pass on Mythic, you'll need to improve some fights. Additionally, the Path is a bit ridiculous with both treasure and artifacts. Crafting feats will only worsen this.

The story is really good. However, it frequently puts multiple NPCs alongside the party, some of whom can be talkative. If you have trouble roleplaying multiple allies at a time (as I sometimes do), you may have to make some adjustments.

I'm partway through Book 3, and I haven't made any adjustments to the system yet; however, my group has some handicaps (15 pt buy - which I recommend, 3 players, no full casters). Even still, the damage capabilities of the party are becoming an issue. They aren't even fully optimized. It might be wise to talk to your more skilled players - try to convince them to choose flavor over power. They won't need an excess of the latter unless you really ramp things up.

Despite all my warnings, I do recommend it. It's not ready for pick-up-and-play, but I and the rest of the forum can help. (I'd expect a bit less cheer from some of them.) And, once you know more about the characters and their backstories, I can help you tie things in more cohesively. Mine has been a rousing success there.

If all this sounds promising, feel free to ask more questions! :)

Edit: so much for more details later. Gosh.


Just wanted to poke my head in here, I've been running this for a group of 4-5 players (started with 5, then the 5th dropped only to be able to rejoin later). I've been running it with extremely minimal changes (I added a single mook to two encounters, but given the way things have been going I stopped). Everything else has been as is. So far they're having a very hard time (with two PC deaths), and I don't expect that to change for the rest of book 2.

That said, I've heard the real madness begins in book 3, but so far I haven't seen any signs of the shenanigans others have experienced.


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I am partway through book 4.

Mythic character become very powerful very fast. In book 2 the predesigned opponents started to become too weak to fight effectively against the party.
I used Scorpion_MJD's stat blocks (found in this forum) and still have had to increase hit points a lot. Paradoxically as I move into the end of book 4 I face the problem that the PC's are glass cannons even the Guardian Dwarf ranger can be killed in 1 round by a peer level npc so I am going to have to do something about the pc's ability to absorb damage. This seems to be because mythic increased damage dealing exponentially without really increasing defenses or hp by a comparable amount, I think I may start halving damage done to pc's at the same time as I triple NPC hit points so major battles feel significant not like walkovers

I have in order to keep things slightly sane
1) Banned spending a mythic point for an extra standard action
2)Banned Mythic haste
3) Foebiter now draws upon the mythic power of the legendry weapon not the heroes mythic points(it can be used less) , preemptive banning would work better
4) All the mythic abilities to cast any spell are now Standard actions not Swift actions
5) Mythic power attack is not doubled on a crit

My players are not particularly good optimisers but a two handed weapon wielding Paladin is not a difficult concept and regularly does 400hp damage per round at 14th level. The written version of Baphomet stand 0 chance of surviving a battle vs the pc's and they are 2 levels and 2 mythic tiers short of facing him I would be amazed if he lived through the first round.

Encourage less than optimum builds particularly as they level up , this is the campaign to use a Two weapon wielding Paladin or a melee sorceror as you do not need to optimise.

It is however a good plot with lots of room for player heroism and some good opportunities for role-playing , I am really enjoying the midnight isles. Mythic powers sadly though are too powerful


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As you are in the considering phase, I'll ask 'how much spare time do you have?' And 'How much do you like reworking most to all encounters?'

If the answers are lots of spare time and I love redesigning encounters, then mythic plus Wotr could work for you.

And as suggested above, this will work even better if you take the initiative to ban abilities and your PCs are willing to work with you.


JohnHawkins wrote:


I have in order to keep things slightly sane
1) Banned spending a mythic point for an extra standard action
2)Banned Mythic haste

I see a lot of people doing this, but I'm not sure those powers are too crazy. It may go against intent, but the rules say you can only take free and swift actions in a round that you take a full-round action (You also can't move any distance other than a 5' step).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ssyvan wrote:
JohnHawkins wrote:


I have in order to keep things slightly sane
1) Banned spending a mythic point for an extra standard action
2)Banned Mythic haste
I see a lot of people doing this, but I'm not sure those powers are too crazy. It may go against intent, but the rules say you can only take free and swift actions in a round that you take a full-round action (You also can't move any distance other than a 5' step).

I agree with you to a point. I also made the same ruling with mythic haste. But we have no idea which reading on extra actions is correct. I think the most logical one is where you can take your entire turn and then you get extra actions.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am Pretty certain that "As a free action spend a mythic point to get a standard actions" Means exactly that , and that a rule in an earlier book is clearly superseded by the wording of that power which is otherwise Entirely pointless.Particularly as the guideline is specific (the mythic rules for these 2 effects) trumps general (whatever you are quoting, I don't recognise the source). Hence I banned it.
The options appear to be decide that the mythic haste spell and Amazing initiative don't do anything and never had any intent to do so and so there was no point printing them. Which seems unlikely.
OR they work as written and are overpowered and so I ban them in a desperate attempt to keep things under control.
Anyway if you really want to argue about it please start another thread to avoid hijacking this one.


Seannoss wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
JohnHawkins wrote:


I have in order to keep things slightly sane
1) Banned spending a mythic point for an extra standard action
2)Banned Mythic haste
I see a lot of people doing this, but I'm not sure those powers are too crazy. It may go against intent, but the rules say you can only take free and swift actions in a round that you take a full-round action (You also can't move any distance other than a 5' step).
I agree with you to a point. I also made the same ruling with mythic haste. But we have no idea which reading on extra actions is correct. I think the most logical one is where you can take your entire turn and then you get extra actions.

Yeah, I get that, and I think it was probably the intent of the rule. But, we've found you can do some really neat things with those additional actions when you're not doing full-round actions. For example, Total Defense + Cleave. The Rogue can now Feint + Standard Attack (he has no feint feats. Or our Cleric can Channel and cast a spell.

Anyways, I'm not trying to derail, just offering advice to the OP on how to reign in seemingly obnoxious powers without having to ban them outright.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Nope, not trying to derail either. But its better than my first suggestion which would be... don't run it.

This also touched upon the idea that the mythic rules are unwieldy and pretty much can't be run as is. Especially not with the AP as it is presented. But if you know your players and can work with them, then it can be run in some form.


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honestly if you're after god level shenanigans that makes everyone gape and exclaim at the end "Holy s&#@ that was f@$#ing EPIC!!!" get Iron Gods, its not just that the whole thing is great but the ending is literally one of the hardest most epic endings of any AP ever!

they nail the god level s+@* in a way more satisfying way then WotR ever could.

Iron Gods Spoilers, huge even!

:
not only do you get to decide if their will be a new god, but you also get to essentially "program" what that goddess will be, of course thats assuming you can defeat the major Iron God at the end, which considering its anywheres from a CR21-26 encounter is no sure thing:)


captain yesterday wrote:

honestly if you're after god level shenanigans that makes everyone gape and exclaim at the end "Holy s#+# that was f&**ing EPIC!!!" get Iron Gods, its not just that the whole thing is great but the ending is literally one of the hardest most epic endings of any AP ever!

they nail the god level s$%& in a way more satisfying way then WotR ever could.

Iron Gods Spoilers, huge even!** spoiler omitted **

TYRANNY! AND SPOILERS. Mostly spoilers.

Iron Gods derail:

Yeah, but it has one of those mechanics. Since my players are obsessive completionists, they'll do all the stuff to reduce His power. Of course, I'll probably just run it as written and claim it would have been even worse. My contempt for them is so potent, it has Mythic ranks and full casting.

Also, since Casandalee will 99% certain be in there, I'm probably going to give them a tragic scare when the place wipes with her still inside. I'm also going to be a little more coy about the "programming" - not enough to take away the achievement, but more flavorful than "pick four domains".


Little bump.

I'm trying to have an introductory adventure (since one of my four players won't be able to join until the second session) to get everyone into the feel of Kenabres.

Anyone know of a suitable level 1 "adventure" that I could use that would fit into a city like Kenabres. I'm also going for the whole "get to know your npc allies before fallling down the hole" a tinybit. Rumours and all that. :-)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Nothing (prewritten) comes to mind... but then, I'm not as familiar with the non-AP modules. :)

Pathfinder Society might have something useful. I think I've heard of other GMs running a bit of the festival itself (before the interruption and the fall). Personally, I would write something custom for my group... but then again, I have that kind of time, and others may not. If you do, though, I'm sure we can help you with ideas. :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would expand on the festival as well and introduce some of the NPCs there. This idea works out very well in RotRL and can be duplicated here. The AP also suggests doing a mock mass battle, if you plan on keeping that part.

Something about discovering cultists would be very fitting. I know that Giantslayer starts with a murder mystery of sorts, maybe there's enough in there to borrow?

Grand Lodge

I'm a player in Wrath of the Righteous. I feel comfortable talking about it since we are near the end.

We have essentially creamed every encounter we have come across since mid-book 2? In the span of the campaign we lost one character to a crit somewhere in book four.

The important things I'd mention:

1.) Make sure that both you and your players are well versed with mythic rules. It's important to know what kind of abilities use what kinds of actions. Our players and our DM are regularly confused or indifferent to the '1 swift or immediate action per round' rule.

2.) If your creatures have mythic abilities, use them as often as you can and try not to forget that that you have them on tap.

3.) The military section in book 2... Only one person was in charge of the army and it left everyone else bored during those sessions. I believe that if there was some additional stuff like allowing the rest of the group to take part in in the results of the commander's rolls it would have been more fun.

4.) In the end, without retooling of the mythic system or significant boosted creature stat blocks the game is going to devolve into what ours did... a steamroll through encounter after encounter. Being a DM myself it makes me cringe every single time the magus and the sorcerer cast a mythic presient persistent maximized disintegrate on something that was supposed to challenge a whole party. (One time both of them did it in the same round for somewhere in the area of 950+ damage).

5.) As one of my fellow players says, "You have got to be the kind of DM who doesn't mind when your encounters are easily dispatched," and, "The characters are meant to be superheroes!" This is why, I will never run Wrath of the Righteous.

Sovereign Court

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Tybid wrote:

I'm a player in Wrath of the Righteous. I feel comfortable talking about it since we are near the end.

We have essentially creamed every encounter we have come across since mid-book 2? In the span of the campaign we lost one character to a crit somewhere in book four.

The important things I'd mention:

1.) Make sure that both you and your players are well versed with mythic rules. It's important to know what kind of abilities use what kinds of actions. Our players and our DM are regularly confused or indifferent to the '1 swift or immediate action per round' rule.

2.) If your creatures have mythic abilities, use them as often as you can and try not to forget that that you have them on tap.

3.) The military section in book 2... Only one person was in charge of the army and it left everyone else bored during those sessions. I believe that if there was some additional stuff like allowing the rest of the group to take part in in the results of the commander's rolls it would have been more fun.

4.) In the end, without retooling of the mythic system or significant boosted creature stat blocks the game is going to devolve into what ours did... a steamroll through encounter after encounter. Being a DM myself it makes me cringe every single time the magus and the sorcerer cast a mythic presient persistent maximized disintegrate on something that was supposed to challenge a whole party. (One time both of them did it in the same round for somewhere in the area of 950+ damage).

5.) As one of my fellow players says, "You have got to be the kind of DM who doesn't mind when your encounters are easily dispatched," and, "The characters are meant to be superheroes!" This is why, I will never run Wrath of the Righteous.

I agree wholeheartedly with almost all of this.

The whole "superhero" thing always rubbed me the wrong way a little, though. Superheroes encounter challenging foes all the time, and frequently find themselves outmatched by their nemeses. In WotR, by all accounts, even the archnemeses are steamrolled. There's a very specific superhero, though...

Mythic seems like a Superman situation. You either have Kryptonite (and Mythic characters don't have quite that brutal a weakness) or he shrugs off your attack and pulls exactly the right power out of his behind. (Wild Arcana/Inspired Spell are the literal manifestation of Superman's arbitrary powers, in fact.)

I'm lucky to have no "real" casters in my group. (Paladin, Bloodrager, and Inquisitor, for the record - so no Disintegrates.) I also enforce the swift/immediate rules, hard. I'm still going to have to retool the system, though. :(

It's all a shame - as I said in another thread, the Mythic system was a great concept, but because of how things turned out (and our response), the dev team has all but given up on it, leaving us (and Legendary Games, I suppose) to pick up the pieces. :(


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I would say that many GMs like to hand out shiny objects for their players, because players like shiny things, and it can be fun to make your player happy. RESIST THIS URGE! Your Mythic PCs will get strong very fast and a well built character can really start to outpace the group if others are not optimized.

I would say:
1) give your players a 15 point buy, no stats under 8 pre-racial mods. This will help to keep the baseline low, and help to reduce the need to rewrite the adventure too soon.
2) encourage unique snowflake builds, because you can do many things with mythic that are super underpowered otherwise.
3) ban some overly good abilities b/c they make the game unfun. Foebiter should be out. Clustered shot is another. That is all I can think of off the top of my head.
4) don't hand wave rules on time requirements etc for crafting or purchase limits for town size. This will help to restrict access to the best equipment EVER!! issue.
5) tell your players up front that if an option they take gets too powerful, you may ask them to drop it for something else. This is done in the interest of fun for the group. Example

Spoiler:
In my group the ranger hand CE outsiders as favored enemy and Clustered Shot. She was doing more damage in a round than the Barbarian and Paladin combined, and she could do it from range, so she almost never took damage. Clustered shot meant that DR was useless to slow her down. Instead of having all monsters have windwall up or every monster attacks her first until she is dead, I asked her to drop Clustered shot. It helped to bring her down to earth and the rest of the group got to participate in fights, so that helped everyone's fun.
Don't be afraid to houserule abilities to bring them down to earth, at least a little.
6) Sometimes just let them have fun. It's fun to demolish an enemy in one massive crit. Everyone will think it is super cool. Its ok if they mow through some encounters.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
j b 200 wrote:

I would say that many GMs like to hand out shiny objects for their players, because players like shiny things, and it can be fun to make your player happy. RESIST THIS URGE! Your Mythic PCs will get strong very fast and a well built character can really start to outpace the group if others are not optimized.

I would say:
1) give your players a 15 point buy, no stats under 8 pre-racial mods. This will help to keep the baseline low, and help to reduce the need to rewrite the adventure too soon.
2) encourage unique snowflake builds, because you can do many things with mythic that are super underpowered otherwise.
3) ban some overly good abilities b/c they make the game unfun. Foebiter should be out. Clustered shot is another. That is all I can think of off the top of my head.
4) don't hand wave rules on time requirements etc for crafting or purchase limits for town size. This will help to restrict access to the best equipment EVER!! issue.
5) tell your players up front that if an option they take gets too powerful, you may ask them to drop it for something else. This is done in the interest of fun for the group. Example ** spoiler omitted ** Don't be afraid to houserule abilities to bring them down to earth, at least a little.
6) Sometimes just let them have fun. It's fun to demolish an enemy in one massive crit. Everyone will think it is super cool. Its ok if they mow through some encounters.

ALSO all this. You guys get it. :)

I did the 15pt buy thing. And on the topic of weird character concepts, the bloodrager in my party doesn't wear armor. No monk splash or whatever, just no armor. It's a character he's always wanted to play, and I figured this was the time.

We're in downtime mode right now, and there is crafting. I'll second that point too. The inquisitor has spent tons of time crafting items like swarmbane clasps and apprentice's cheating gloves.

I do allow cohorts, which is usually a big red flag. However, I only have a 3-player group, and I treat the two cohorts as a single "PC" when dividing xp. Plus, I built them myself, although that probably only made them more broken. :)


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Dont run it!
so many better APs....


I haven't run WotR yet but am planning to, only using hero points instead of mythic (3 pts + 1/tier, regenerating every day).

However,I was thinking of adding something more to the mix so came up with the advancement below. I wanted to make the characters seem more epic by giving them more defensive abilities rather than offensive ones. I borrowed some suitable looking powers from the mythic rules.

Still a work in progress, though. Any suggestions/caveats welcome.

Go to my shiny new Flickr account (which I hope works, as I've never used it before) to see what I've come up with so far.


Kalindlara wrote:

Nothing (prewritten) comes to mind... but then, I'm not as familiar with the non-AP modules. :)

Pathfinder Society might have something useful. I think I've heard of other GMs running a bit of the festival itself (before the interruption and the fall). Personally, I would write something custom for my group... but then again, I have that kind of time, and others may not. If you do, though, I'm sure we can help you with ideas. :)

Take a look at some of the Pathfinder Society scenarios. There's a few set in Nerosyan that could be re-tooled toward Kenabres. You could also run the Demon Within module, using another party of level 11s, who could then be slaughtered (with player forewarning) during the start of the campaign itself. While that won't embed the characters, it gives the players some investment.


I'm planning on doing it with Hero Points and dropping the mythic rules, and maybe adding some extra feats whenever they achieve the next level of mythic tiers.

Since most character are usually "Damn, I want all these feats" I think it would be nice to build more and give them the choice :)

I had thought of running the festival, but I have already run one before so can't use the same. I want to try a one-session thing where they are sent back and forth across the city, maybe encountering people and places they will find later on.

I'll look at Giantslayer, thanks for the tips. Any more great ideas?


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Rickmeister wrote:

Thinking of running it...

Any advices on what to take from those DM's that have already ventured so far? :-)

<takes deep breath>

Don't run it, it's not worth the incredible trauma and loss in confidence in Paizo as good developers.

Otherwise, if that doesn't convince you, the others in this thread probably already have made good suggestions on how to turn down the stupid so that the AP is playable. I am much still much too angry to talk rationally at length about this topic.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

:(


Yeah I read your rant, and I might be able to find my way into all of it, but still going to run it.

I'm going with the Hero Point system instead of the Mythic paths probably, and they gain a feat when they would normally gain a tier. We'll see how it goes.

I have yet to run *any* AP without making adjustments, so I guess this one won't be a surprise.

Any suggestions on a nice 3-hour sessions thing I can do before the FALL
#cue dramatic music


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Why are you still running it? if you don't mind me asking.

Wrath of the Righteous is bad so bad it almost makes Second Darkness good in comparison.

With upwards of fifteen adventure paths and 6-18 months to complete why mess around with a s&##ty path, personally i'd rather convert CotCT to pathfinder before i run WotR, without mythic adventures or not, its still gonna be an easier undertaking with a much bigger pay off in the long run:-)


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Just a question and an opinion, no hatred or bile.
WotR deserves the criticism (worst ending yet!)


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Wrath is an easy AP to want to run. With the way it is portrayed it sounds like the ultimate battle between good and evil, where the PCs get to travel to the Abyss to take on demon lords. I suspect that it will work much better without mythic rules though, and if part 6 isn't run.

As a critic of mythic, I'm sorry Kalindlara, but I do not want to see more mythic products(other than world history and story, I did like the mythic support books for ideas). It is a heavily flawed system that breaks down very rapidly. But I have also posted ideas to try to help it out, and I also like the idea of it going forward as a GMs toolbox to buff up encounters.


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The AP is not bad, the story is fun and interesting. The NPCs (both friendly and evil) have depth and behave logically (for an RPG). The issue with WotR is not with the AP, it is with the Mythic Rules. Really if they had waited a year, or even 6 months to see how Mythic really worked out in the real world, most of the issues would have been fixed. It was because they were writing the Mythic rules at the same time as the AP that most of these problems came about.
Many of the more vocal critics also have groups that are uber-optimizers who are going to break almost every AP. APs are written for a mildly inexperience group that is taking abilities for character reasons and not for power gaming. Mythic mostly just exacerbates the existing issue.

To the OP- one thing I forgot to mention. For My group I slowed down the level progression, ending book 3 at level 11 teir 4 instead of 12/5. This helped to alleviate some of the rocket tag issues. I expect to reinsert the Level/Tier in book 6, beefing up some encounters and adding a little more in (book 6 is a little light due to the massive stat blocks eating up the page count). I would suggest keeping them a level down even starting with book 1. End book 1 at level 5 instead of 6.


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Iron Gods is better and Technology is balanced and doesnt need tweaking:-)


I'm with Kalindlara here, I think Wrath is a good AP (at least so far, and may as well get the disclaimer that we're only at the end of book 2 out of the way).

I would caution DMs that they need to be familiar with all of the rules before starting, which is a condition I don't think any other AP has had. By cutting out Mythic I think you're missing some opportunities, and I have a word of caution. I had one player (who left before ascension, and rejoined after) on hero points for a while and he died because of that.

Wrath can work, at least for two books, without modification. If I had any suggestion it's that you at least try that. Try it until it doesn't work and then be ready to fall back on something if the needs arises.

As for stuff you could do around the city for a session?

-The big unanswered question for me was the chief's son. You could work him into a pre-session in a bunch of ways. Perhaps he was sighted in Kenebres and they have to track him down? You could even culminate with them having to resolve a scuffle between him and some of the Mad Crusaders they encounter later.

That could give the broach they find later some more weight, especially if the Chief recognizes it. This can all be resolved between Book 1 & 2 with potentially reuniting the two, or perhaps allowing the son to replace one of the NPCs in Book 2.

I think it could be awesome having a descendant of the first crusade accompanying the players on what may be the last.

EDIT: And can we please be constructive?

Scarab Sages

The mythic ruleset was really really bad. That is not hate, viciousness, or bile, it is a simple statement based on the experience of actually using it over the course of APs. This has been gone over repeatedly in other threads with groups trying to salvage Wrath of the Righteous, because the story is good, but mythic so imbalanced the game that what was supposed to be an epic struggle between good and evil was completely trivialized by unoptimized 15pt buy tables. Mythic works really well as is for giving the DM additional options (as it's used in Iron Gods, for instance), but it doesn't survive contact with the players.

Sovereign Court

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Sorry about the extreme language. It looked like the thread was going to turn into a familiar debate, and I was a little upset from some earlier correspondence with Mr. Jacobs regarding Mythic. :(

As I said, I think the AP itself is good, and I like the ideas of Mythic. I will freely admit, however, that running Mythic completely as-written will be a catastrophe. :) Some options simply have to be changed or banned for the system to function - Foe-Biter and Channel Power spring to mind. My statement was based on a few things:

1) The rage I saw at the time, and am still seeing from some. It upsets me, no matter how justified it may be. :/

2) The idea that, if the forum response had been more measured, efforts might have been made to repair Mythic. Instead, they've given up on it. :(

3) It's easier for me, personally, to tweak the existing Mythic system than to attempt to add Mythic to a non-Mythic story (as I plan to do with Serpent's Skull).

So again, I apologize for my outburst. I do have a couple of questions for the detractors, though.

1) Which Mythic options were the most problematic? From what I've heard, Foe-Biter and Amazing Initiative are a good place to start.

2) Do we have any written accounts of 15-point buy, unoptimized parties clearing the AP, or was that just theoretical? I'd like to read about it and show it as evidence to my more skeptical players...

Thank you for your assistance. :)


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my issues with the wrath story (this might take awhile)

Book 3

:
has Arushelae's Redoubt and one or two other cool sounding encounters, but thats it, the trait stories are a wash

Book 4

:
Happy fun time in succubus land could've been way better or fleshed out (sorry!) instead we get factory and mine time with a heavy whack of a railroad at the end, oh also that super cool succubus that was already mostly redeemed anyway? she doesn't really matter

Book 6

:
honestly this is the only adventure book i've ever bought where i genuinely felt a little ripped off (and i bought Expedition to Undermountain!) i thought i was getting a high level happy fun put the smack down on the world wound type of adventure, instead i get Pyralisia, a corrupted Phoenix and one of the coolest NPCs associated with the world wound inside? in a cage no less?

on top of that we have a non-mythic whats-her-face (the marilith, name far away on the book shelf) a trip into a mythic succubus bordello, more Abyssal factories (why do demons need so many factories in the first place? seriously)

the Storm King encounter is awesome, i'll give you that and it was great how he gets brought back later but still why are mythic heroes faced with so so many Fly demons? and then to top it off you don't even get to fully kill Deskari because its beyond the scope of the adventure? they're Demigods this is as big picture as pathfinder gets how can it be beyond the scope of the adventure!
maybe if they didn't have so much space devoted to bordellos and factories they could've done so:-)

Well thanks for letting me get that off my chest, its been building up, i'll behave now:-)


Kalindlara wrote:

So again, I apologize for my outburst. I do have a couple of questions for the detractors, though.

1) Which Mythic options were the most problematic? From what I've heard, Foe-Biter and Amazing Initiative are a good place to start.

2) Do we have any written accounts of 15-point buy, unoptimized parties clearing the AP, or was that just theoretical? I'd like to read about it and show it as evidence to my more skeptical players...

On point 2 there, it has been a very difficult AP for my group. I have a campaign journal thread where I'll be happy to field any questions. I've got 5 players (there was a time when we were 4) all 15 point-buy, only the campaign trait, etc.

As for point 1, I haven't looked over Foe-Biter yet, but as for amazing initiative I don't think anything needs to be done.

This is often overlooked:

PRD wrote:
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

Also Foe-Biting requires a normal attack, so you can't couple that with a full-attack.

Scarab Sages

Kalindlara wrote:

Sorry about the extreme language. It looked like the thread was going to turn into a familiar debate, and I was a little upset from some earlier correspondence with Mr. Jacobs regarding Mythic. :(

As I said, I think the AP itself is good, and I like the ideas of Mythic. I will freely admit, however, that running Mythic completely as-written will be a catastrophe. :) Some options simply have to be changed or banned for the system to function - Foe-Biter and Channel Power spring to mind. My statement was based on a few things:

1) The rage I saw at the time, and am still seeing from some. It upsets me, no matter how justified it may be. :/

2) The idea that, if the forum response had been more measured, efforts might have been made to repair Mythic. Instead, they've given up on it. :(

3) It's easier for me, personally, to tweak the existing Mythic system than to attempt to add Mythic to a non-Mythic story (as I plan to do with Serpent's Skull).

So again, I apologize for my outburst. I do have a couple of questions for the detractors, though.

1) Which Mythic options were the most problematic? From what I've heard, Foe-Biter and Amazing Initiative are a good place to start.

2) Do we have any written accounts of 15-point buy, unoptimized parties clearing the AP, or was that just theoretical? I'd like to read about it and show it as evidence to my more skeptical players...

Thank you for your assistance. :)

Here's a very long thread that is for the most part constructive even if there is a lot of frustration in it: clicky here.

A lot of the frustration that does come out in it was happening when someone would drop in, not read anything that was being talked about, and then simply assert having not even played the AP that those who were having problems were obviously just min-maxing optimizers.

I converted and ran Reign of Winter mythic (characters got a mythic tier on every even level, so they got to go to 20/10 by the end) and it was a lot better than WotR. Reason is that mythic lends itself to over the top gonzo games that aren't taken very somberly even if they're serious. That worked very well for the tone and adventures of Reign of Winter but was completely inconsistent with the story in Wrath of the Righteous.

Hope that helps.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:

Sorry about the extreme language. It looked like the thread was going to turn into a familiar debate, and I was a little upset from some earlier correspondence with Mr. Jacobs regarding Mythic. :(

2) Do we have any written accounts of 15-point buy, unoptimized parties clearing the AP, or was that just theoretical? I'd like to read about it and show it as evidence to my more skeptical players...

Thank you for your assistance. :)

I am 2/3 of the way through book 3 with 6 PCs, 15 point buy. Mix of optimized and non-optimized. My witch has not yet done a single point of damage and her buffs/debuffs are a bit spotty. The paladin and the ranged archer are pretty twinked. The life oracle is a very good healer. The wizard has only taken extra spells, which coupled with the Wild Arcana makes her very useful, but she has a tough time remembering what spells can do what. The barbarian is still trying to figure out how to be effective.

The first encounter that was really too easy was Vormalaak (sp?) in part because I misunderstood that the manic dance of ruin was +5d6 for each vrock (I thought it was an extra +1d6 for each vrock).

As noted elsewhere, I am trying to keep my party a bit under leveled, and I do add an arbitrary number of hit points to my bad guys to keep them up for a couple of rounds. I also am happy to add some mooks (Vormalaak had 7 extra vrocks, not 2...five ran interference while V and two buddies danced).

That said, I have not seen quite the breakdown that others have. I have not felt the need to rework the encounters drastically...although as they approach the woundwyrm, I have reservations and will probably grab scorpion's stat block for it.

I still like the story, and so far the players are still having fun.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My players were a 20 pt buy but unoptimized(example: the paladin wanted to be a spellcaster), and actually mostly core too. This was an extremely easy AP for them that required hours of work from me to adjust combats for the 1-2 rounds they lasted.

Ssyvan; your reading of full round actions may be correct. Or it may be a case of specific rules overriding that. It would be nice to know.

Or with 2 standard actions per round plus mythic vital strike, power attack and foe biter... it doesn't really matter much.

My advise on mythic is on other threads, but I think the OPs idea of ignoring it and using hero points is probably the best. With limitations, I do think that adding 1 mythic tier can spice up a campaign.


Seannoss wrote:

My players were a 20 pt buy but unoptimized(example: the paladin wanted to be a spellcaster), and actually mostly core too. This was an extremely easy AP for them that required hours of work from me to adjust combats for the 1-2 rounds they lasted.

Ssyvan; your reading of full round actions may be correct. Or it may be a case of specific rules overriding that. It would be nice to know.

Or with 2 standard actions per round plus mythic vital strike, power attack and foe biter... it doesn't really matter much.

My advise on mythic is on other threads, but I think the OPs idea of ignoring it and using hero points is probably the best. With limitations, I do think that adding 1 mythic tier can spice up a campaign.

You're right that it might not matter with vital strike and foe biter, but you can only do that for one of your standard actions. IIRC, activating Foe-Biting requires a legendary power which is a swift action to expend. Which would burn your immediate for the round. Either way, at the very least, it would it delay things falling apart.

Out of curiosity, would you mind posting your party make up? Or link to it if you've done so elsewhere. You can use my thread if you want.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'll try to find them and post a few, but I don't have access to all of the PCs anymore.

And your rule/idea makes sense, but looking over the legendary item rules, and foe biter, I cannot find any reference to a swift action being needed. Also, it would have to be an immediate action at worst as you can use it after confirming a crit. Anyways, I banned all legendary items in my game. If something like that is needed there are artifact suggestions in the AP that have built in stories.


Seannoss wrote:

I'll try to find them and post a few, but I don't have access to all of the PCs anymore.

And your rule/idea makes sense, but looking over the legendary item rules, and foe biter, I cannot find any reference to a swift action being needed. Also, it would have to be an immediate action at worst as you can use it after confirming a crit. Anyways, I banned all legendary items in my game. If something like that is needed there are artifact suggestions in the AP that have built in stories.

Took me forever to remember how I got there, but first off you're right that it'd be an immediate action.

My reasoning is that Legendary Surge is like Mythic Surge, which is an immediate action. Which I take to be the default method of expending a Legendary Power. If you search over the Legendary Item Powers, the only actions specified are non-immediate so I'm making the assumption that if it's unspecified it is immediate.

EDIT: And isn't this cute

PRD Foe-Biting wrote:
Foe-Biting: When this item deals damage, its user can use mythic power to double the total amount of damage it deals.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This brings up the point that the mythic rules are not clarified very well. I like your 'reasoning' and 'assumption' but things like that aren't stated anywhere. And I'm sure we all know the power of RAW :)

A good piece of advise is to use mythic rules with a group that trusts you and listens to your rulings. Actually that's good all the time, and from both sides. But there are a lot more judgement calls in mythic, especially when the natural urge (or mine was) is to limit what mythic does.


Yeah you're right, in this case I'm definitely making a guess, which I shouldn't have to do.

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