Three times per day when a wielder of this rod uses a hex (but not an advanced hex or grand hex), she can use this rod’s power to double the duration of the hex, so long as the hex’s normal duration is longer than 1 round. When augmented with this rod, a hex that might have a longer duration if a target fails its save but only a 1-round duration if the target succeeds at its save (such as evil eye) still has only a 1-round duration against a target that succeeds at its save.
...The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments....
I only quoted from prehensile hair the part about duration.
Can the rod increase the hair's minutes be day?
I can't see any reason why it wouldn't. The hex fits the rod's criteria.
How would you determine what "double" duration is though?
You don't decide to use it for 3 minutes "doubled" to 6 minutes or anything like that when you use it.
You activate the ability for an indeterminate amount of time, that can be no longer than X minutes and has to be used in minute increments. For it to have a duration you would have to state how many minutes you were using it for at the time of use.
I'd be careful of table variance if you plan on using it for PFS.
You activate the hex for an indeterminate amount of time, limited by the hex's duration. The rod doubles said duration. The hex doesn't have a variable duration, it has a variable amount of time you use it.
Shaman hex actually refer to the minute per level limit as a duration.
Easy: make the hex use up two minutes at a time.
-> The hex gives a duration between activation and the player's choice to continue, which the rod technically doubles.
---
This way you could double the time with one really long hex, or you could break it up into several uses (thus needing more uses of the rod)
I'd rather not see the hex's duration automatically doubled by one use of the rod, which could then be broken into 1-minute intervals
You activate the hex for an indeterminate amount of time, limited by the hex's duration. The rod doubles said duration. The hex doesn't have a variable duration, it has a variable amount of time you use it.
Shaman hex actually refer to the minute per level limit as a duration.
The problem is, you don't know the duration. We essentially have two definitions for duration. Most spells and abilities have what we would normally use duration for, they last of a set amount of time, predetermined when the ability is used. Then we have a maximum duration which the hex and a few other spells and abilities use, things like detect magic or others that have a "concentration; or max duration of x rounds/minutes/etc per level" the item doesn't play as nicely with that set of rules. Because basically, it does nothing for you.
For example, you use ability and use the item. The ability is used in increments of minutes. You start a fight, it goes 12 rounds, so just past the first minute it looks like it might go much longer so you keep the ability going. The ability was up for 2 minutes, the item doubles that to 4 minutes. Chances are the majority of that "doubled time" is wasted in such a scenario. The other side is, you use the ability for a minute and drop it, it gets doubled to 2 minutes, but that could end up not being long enough. So you have to use the ability and possibly a second use of the item to to maintain for the combat/event.
You activate the hex for an indeterminate amount of time, limited by the hex's duration. The rod doubles said duration. The hex doesn't have a variable duration, it has a variable amount of time you use it.
Shaman hex actually refer to the minute per level limit as a duration.
The problem is, you don't know the duration. We essentially have two definitions for duration. Most spells and abilities have what we would normally use duration for, they last of a set amount of time, predetermined when the ability is used. Then we have a maximum duration which the hex and a few other spells and abilities use, things like detect magic or others that have a "concentration; or max duration of x rounds/minutes/etc per level" the item doesn't play as nicely with that set of rules. Because basically, it does nothing for you.
For example, you use ability and use the item. The ability is used in increments of minutes. You start a fight, it goes 12 rounds, so just past the first minute it looks like it might go much longer so you keep the ability going. The ability was up for 2 minutes, the item doubles that to 4 minutes. Chances are the majority of that "doubled time" is wasted in such a scenario. The other side is, you use the ability for a minute and drop it, it gets doubled to 2 minutes, but that could end up not being long enough. So you have to use the ability and possibly a second use of the item to to maintain for the combat/event.
To me, it's much easier to view the Rod as working with the Hex retroactively. When you activate the Hex and decide to use the Rod, the minute increments would instead be reduced to 30 second increments as far as duration is concerned, or to be more accurate, each minute increment is counted as 2 until the Hex is disabled. So for each 2 minutes you have that Hex going for, it still only takes away a single 1 minute increment.
One could try to munchkin it to function as only 1 use of the Hex ever, but that drains away from the total duration of the Hex, and when it deactivates, the user would have to activate the Rod's power, should they call upon the Hex again, to reinstate the whole "2 minutes per 1 minute increment" rule.
It's not much different than say, a Bloodrager with a magic item/rod that allows them to double the duration of their Rage, or more accurately, only every other round of rage subtracts from their given rounds; this is off-set by the factor of diminishing returns from Rage (fatigue), as well as a possible clause that says rage rounds are expended on the first round they rage, and then every other round after (so 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, etc. turns all expend 1 round of rage, whereas 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, etc. do not).
The problem is, you don't know the duration. We essentially have two definitions for duration. Most spells and abilities have what we would normally use duration for, they last of a set amount of time, predetermined when the ability is used. Then we have a maximum duration which the hex and a few other spells and abilities use, things like detect magic or others that have a "concentration; or max duration of x rounds/minutes/etc per level" the item doesn't play as nicely with that set of rules. Because basically, it does nothing for you.
Except I do know the duration, it's minutes per level, used in 1 minute increments. There are a number of spells that are dismissible that function with extend spell.
I haven't even seen something called a maximum duration, where is that from?
For example, you use ability and use the item. The ability is used in increments of minutes. You start a fight, it goes 12 rounds, so just past the first minute it looks like it might go much longer so you keep the ability going. The ability was up for 2 minutes, the item doubles that to 4 minutes. Chances are the majority of that "doubled time" is wasted in such a scenario. The other side is, you use the ability for a minute and drop it, it gets doubled to 2 minutes, but that could end up not being long enough. So you have to use the ability and possibly a second use of the item to to maintain for the combat/event.
But the rod doesn't double increments, it doubles duration.
The problem is, you don't know the duration. We essentially have two definitions for duration. Most spells and abilities have what we would normally use duration for, they last of a set amount of time, predetermined when the ability is used. Then we have a maximum duration which the hex and a few other spells and abilities use, things like detect magic or others that have a "concentration; or max duration of x rounds/minutes/etc per level" the item doesn't play as nicely with that set of rules. Because basically, it does nothing for you.
Except I do know the duration, it's minutes per level, used in 1 minute increments. There are a number of spells that are dismissible that function with extend spell.
I haven't even seen something called a maximum duration, where is that from?
But the rod doesn't double increments, it doubles duration.For example, you use ability and use the item. The ability is used in increments of minutes. You start a fight, it goes 12 rounds, so just past the first minute it looks like it might go much longer so you keep the ability going. The ability was up for 2 minutes, the item doubles that to 4 minutes. Chances are the majority of that "doubled time" is wasted in such a scenario. The other side is, you use the ability for a minute and drop it, it gets doubled to 2 minutes, but that could end up not being long enough. So you have to use the ability and possibly a second use of the item to to maintain for the combat/event.
Considering the increments are part of the hex's duration for the day, it would double those too. But again, when it's deactivated from each use, the rod would have to be activated again in order to benefit from the increased duration/increments from consecutive uses.
But the rod doesn't double the increments, it doubles the duration.
The easiest way to deal with it, IMO, would be to rule that activating it makes the next chunk of duration that you use last 2 minutes, so you're getting a minute free each time you activate it.
I'm wondering how this rod would work on Fortune/Misfortune. At level 8 you get to benefit from it for 4 rounds?
But the rod doesn't double the increments, it doubles the duration.
The increments are all part of the same duration. You can't treat it as a charged ability with a determinable duration, because it's not, it's more like a 'toggled' ability. It's not a "You can use this ability X times per day," and those durations are set and do not go into stasis, it's a "You can use this ability for X (time scale) per day, but can be used in 1-(lesser time scale) increments." It's something that you can toggle on-off, but it must last for a minimum amount of time before you can disable it (and therefore re-enable it).
If increments and duration are completely separate subjects from each other, like you keep emphasizing that they are, saying "Can be used in 1-X increments," becomes unneeded verbiage, and that might as well be cut out from the description. But it's not, because it has meaning, and that meaning is directly associated in regards to interaction with duration, the very thing that the rod affects.
Claiming that the rod doesn't support all aspects of the duration isn't valid because the RAW is unclear as to what aspects it does/does not support. Since it's not clarified, the RAW supports my interpretation more than it does yours.
Even if your claim is correct, in that increments and duration are separate, then there would be no valid way to activate the rod in regards to the ability in question, so it would just simply fail and not interact with it at all.
@ Errant Mercenary: Since its normal duration is no longer 1 round, yes, it would adjust it to 4 rounds. Very powerful, of course, but as usual, a successful save still means the effect is negated entirely (unless we're talking about Accursed Hex).
Thanks for the answer. In the case of Fortune, it lasts 4 rounds on user which is beneficial.
Thank you to the OP for making me aware of this item by the way!
But the rod doesn't double the increments, it doubles the duration.
It doubles the duration of the particular instance when you use it. Unless you use all your minutes up at once, at some point you will have to activate it again to use the remaining duration.
Use ability, with item. That amount of ability used gets doubled.
The witch’s aura purifies the air around her. Diseases, inhaled poisons, and noxious gaseous effects (such as stinking cloud) are negated in a 10-foot aura around the witch for a number of minutes equal to her level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. Effects caused by spells whose level is more than half the witch’s class level are unaffected.
I was unsure if the rod and hex worked together, until I saw the numerous other hex's that called out the minutes per level as the duration. It's clear that the rod doubles the duration. Without language about remaining duration vs particular duration vs increments, I think I'll go with the simplest definition.
I was unsure if the rod and hex worked together, until I saw the numerous other hex's that called out the minutes per level as the duration. It's clear that the rod doubles the duration. Without language about remaining duration vs particular duration vs increments, I think I'll go with the simplest definition.
The witch’s aura purifies the air around her. Diseases, inhaled poisons, and noxious gaseous effects (such as stinking cloud) are negated in a 10-foot aura around the witch for a number of minutes equal to her level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. Effects caused by spells whose level is more than half the witch’s class level are unaffected.
So then if you used it on the first activation, it would double the entire duration you had for the day, and if you used the rod after, it would have no effect on the remaining duration, because it was already activated.
At least, that's the ruling that would happen if your interpretation is correct.
Yeap, it doubles the duration when hex is used - wich means you still have same rounds per day, just when you deactivate hex it still remain for same amount of time as it was used.
Rod + hex used for 2 minutes = hex lingers for 2 minutes upon deactivation, cos it duration was doubled.
You can do it 3 times per day.
So, after asking a question and getting overwhelming negative feedback, with offers of how it can actually be interpreted to match both rules and intent... You're just going with the way you originally read it?
What was the point of asking the question?
(Ironically, I don't much see a point to either of the questions in this post)
Yeap, it doubles the duration when hex is used - wich means you still have same rounds per day, just when you deactivate hex it still remain for same amount of time as it was used.
Rod + hex used for 2 minutes = hex lingers for 2 minutes upon deactivation, cos it duration was doubled.
You can do it 3 times per day.
You're still running into the fallacy I explained previously. If you count increments as a subject separate from the duration, you have to run it like you would any other one-off effect: The first activation of the ability determines the duration of the effect, and if you activate the rod at any other usage, it ceases to function (because the duration of the hex is already determined when you first used the ability, and doesn't just magically increase at the time you want it; it's not broken to allow it in a home game, but it's not allowed by RAW/RAI). It creates holes into how the ability can be ran, and consistency between tables (specifically, in PFS) would vary so much you wouldn't be able to play the same character at each table.
That being said, I find my interpretation is concise, balanced, and doesn't lead to funky inconsistencies like described above, but certainly fits into the RAW/RAI of the interaction between the given subjects.
Well, i can say that "minutes per day" is not a "duration" of the hex, but a resource that is counted in minutes that you can spend on the "durations" with varying lenghts.
Well, i can say that "minutes per day" is not a "duration" of the hex, but a resource that is counted in minutes that you can spend on the "durations" with varying lenghts.
It's a catch-22. The hex entries specifically refer to those minute per day limitations as the duration of the hex. Although you can activate it and deactivate the hex when you want (assuming it's within the listed restrictions), the duration remains a separate factor from when you activate and deactivate the hex, which is what the OP's point is. (Though I wish he actually explained that instead of just repeating the same sentence over and over, which was unhelpful in getting his point across.)
If you count them as one and the same, you run into the problem of how the expended duration would interact with the activation of the hex. I say that when it's activated, you get 2 minutes per 1 minute increment, and you just say it merely adds on at the end, which mechanically short-changes the point of using the rod. But which one is the right way of running it?
As of right now, I personally don't think the rod was designed for hexes whose duration isn't consecutive, since a clause should be designed for those instances, such as saying something like "Activating a hex with a duration that need not be consecutive doubles the time increments in which the hex must minimally be active. This increased increment time does not count towards the hex's duration for the day."
But there isn't one, and it just tells me that the rod and those inconsecutive duration hexes are mutually exclusive. Especially when activating a hex with an inconsecutive duration isn't clear as to whether it simply subtracts from the maximum duration of the hex for the day and is just toggled on/off, or if it becomes its own set duration in the instance it's activated (which is kind of what I'm leaning towards).