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Indeed, human flesh is very frail. However, realistically, it does take some strength to penetrate armor, even at a weak point. It's not good when the helmet eye slit is your best target.
Again, this is a level of detail not handled in the D20 system. In the D20 system armor reduces the chance to hit but does not reduce damage. Real armor does both. If you want this level of detail best use a different game system, like GURPS.
Do the people who object to dex-to-damage on realism grounds feel the same about sneak damage?
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Basically the arguments are really "I don't like it". That is fine. I just wish people would say that instead of bringing up "in game" arguments that do not really happen in the game.
Dex makes you better at reflex saves, but if you are a frontliner you will likely have a decent constitution, and take the damage, even if you fail the save.
Dex makes you better at acrobatics. Well if you are str based frontliner you are in heavier armor which gives a higher penalty to acrobatics checks, and by the time level 10 comes around CMD is so high that is really hard to make the acrobatic checks so it is really not a factor.
Dex makes you better at disable device. If someone is a pure strength build they are not likely to be investing in DD anyway so the dex guy is not outshining anyone anyway. If the str guy is investing in DD he can still have a good enough DD check to not worry about failing a lot of checks.
Dex makes you better at stealth. If you really want to be sneaky a high dex is not the most important factor, and if dex is your main way to be sneaky you will run into problems especially at higher levels.
I am failing to see this unfair advantage.
About the MMA weight classes, they are about unarmed combat. Quick instead of strong works better for things like rapiers.No, it doesn't, not in terms of damage. That's based on how much velocity you can put into the slashing, stabbing, or bludgeoning strike, which the stronger person can always do.
There's a case to be made that Dex should affect "to hit" by default. While I'm fine with the Weapon Finesse feat, I think the default should be Str for "to hit" in melee.
The reason is, I've played game systems where Dex was "to hit" (and also avoiding being hit) while Str was damage, and Dex was far more valued than Str. So, if you want Dex "to hit" it's more or less okay with me, but you should have to spend the one feat (though negative modifiers from either should penalize the striker).
But how can Dex cause damage, as opposed to helping you hit? The only way it possibly could would be precision, represented by Critical Hits. Letting Dex add to the chance of a critical threat would be OP, but letting it aid the confirmation roll would be reasonable-- about the only way it causing damage should be allowable.
Dex fighting is an other fighting style then strength fighting. If you only come up with examples of heavy weights knocking each other on the head then no, a dex based fighter isn't as good in that. But it you look at the WC fencing you'll won't see any beefcakes. The dex fighting is all about stabbing the right spot and you don't have to hit that hard to pierce the skin. The rest of the damage is based on hitting the right spot, like a kidney.
Having been in several kickboxing matches (ok its not mma but close enough) I think I could punch a lot harder than the average fencer but would no way deal more damage with a rapier.
Just to be sure: Do you really think your mma guy Melvin Mannhoef would deal more damage with a rapier than
fencer Nikolai Novosjolov?
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Dex is too much to give to a martial PC?
What is the Wizard's penalty?
When comparisons are "worlds greatest MMA fighter" and, well, Gandalf, it seems a bit silly.
Martial PCs need more than one good stat, just to barely keep up.
By the way, the whole "dex to damage" has been around for at least four years.
Before that, it was Wisdom to damage.
If you suddenly punch someone and they had no idea it was coming, you usually hurt them a lot more than otherwise. I'd imagine it would be no different with a weapon.
A sneak attack is a case where the person really, really has no idea it's coming, so...extra damage makes sense to me.
In that case you could equally plausibly get some extra damage by surprising your opponent with a sudden precise thrust due to your dextrous fighting style.
Note that a strength-based level 9 rogue gets something like 18 extra damage per sneak attack, the same as a guy with 36 higher strength.
A fencer has Weapon Focus (Rapier) and Weapon Specialization (Rapier), while an MMA fighter (or a kickboxer or a boxer) is more like a Brawler and isn't even proficient with a Rapier. Also, in general fencing cannot be compared because it's about touches. Dex for touch attacks makes total sense, but that's not what we're talking about.
My exact point was that you can't compare them by putting them in the others comfort zone, seems we agree on something.
There is more to damage then critical hit or not, sneak attack and called shots are allready comfirming that it isn't always brute strength. If your point would be that the dex to damage had to be precision damage I could sort of agree but saying all the damage comes from strength I say no. Strength hits harder, dex hit more precise. I can't see why the result can't be roughly the same from game perspective.If fencing were to the death with truly sharp swords, which for good reason we'd never allow, stronger fencers would prevail because they'd be able to do a hell of a lot more damage per hit, as long as they had the proficiency and the weapon focus/specialization.
We don't agree here, as long as the fencer is not extremely weak than most of the time the more agile fighter will pierce the less agile fighter and the fight will be over, even with strength 8. Maybe an even stronger fighter could pierce the same organ harder so a negative strength penalty could've aplied but denying the excistence of effective agile fighters seems silly to me.
Since there are 4 people with good arguments and me doing my best against 1 guy who's only becoming more determined I don't think you guys need me here anymore but my advice would be to watch some nice pirate or ninja movies or something to see the other side of the story.
The rest of the damage is based on hitting the right spot, like a kidney.That's called a "critical hit" and is a separate mechanic.
'Hitting the kidney' is anything that elementals aren't immune to - such as lucky (critical) hits or sneak damage. Why shouldn't being dextrous (and using an appropriate weapon and taking feats and so forth) work too?
If fencing were to the death with truly sharp swords, which for good reason we'd never allow, stronger fencers would prevail because they'd be able to do a hell of a lot more damage per hit
If you're impaled on a sword, it doesn't matter much how strong the person was. Run through is run through.
If you hit someone with a battleaxe, strength would help, but so would skill. Dexterity would affect which body part you hit, the angle of the strike, and so on. Yet for some unrealistic reason we don't allow all barbarians with axes to do extra damage if they have high dexterity.
Ok the balance thing. Please show us a build we can look at and determine how OP it is.
Dex is only better for skills when you don't factor in the 3 feats you spent to replace it as your fighting stat.
Dex is more useful for defense if you don't factor in armor.
Dex is more important for reflex saves, which aren't that important.
After 3.5 this game became about having magic stuff, so carrying capacity does matter.
Those are only the positive things,
Cons:
Munckin (and probably dead) until you finally get the dex to damage.
Less damage output (its sort of your job as a martial)
Feat expensive; instead of 0 feat tax for strength based.
No power attack (piranha strike doesn't count)
Lower cmb/cmd (or more feat tax)
No 1.5× damage.
Bad and expensive armor.
Stength build can take a 10 for dex without any problems (heavy armor even discourages dex) dex based are (ussually) screwed in the early levels without at least 10 in strength and as noted before strength 13 makes a way better swashbuckler because of power attack so yes there are a lot of reasons not to dump strength. -9 damage on a hit is not a penalty?
Ever played a level 2 swashbuckler with 7 strength (non human, non inspired blade) 1d4-2 on a hit. OP?
Realism? lol
If you believe that it will take multiple strikes to the throat with a rapier to kill you, then I can understand your argument... but your still wrong on the grounds of realism.
The Interesting thing is that, doing some numbers, the Strength character can actually out-damage the Dex character AND out AC them.
At level 4, a Fighter with 20 Strength, two handing, and power attack is going to deal 2d6+7+6 or an average of 20 damage. If the Fighter has Shield of Swings they can cut that damage in half to get +4 AC.
Assuming 14 Dex, this Fighter can wear Full Plate at this level and get the full bonus. This means the fighter will have 21 AC, 25 when they use shield of swings.
The Dex fighter with 20 Dex (Not counting Duel-wielding shenanigans since the Saw Tooth Saber is from Inner Sea Combat (which is banned from my games) and one handing their weapon will deal 1d8+5 or an average of 9 damage. They can have a shield for +2 to AC.
The Dex fighter is wearing Kiko armor, their AC is 22.
The difference here is 1 AC normally, until Mithral becomes an option. Even then the Dex fighter loses out in AC and even when using Shield of Swings to HALF his damage the STR fighter does more damage on average than the Dex fighter.
After 3.5 this game became about having magic stuff, so carrying capacity does matter.
This is totally a tangent, but that isn't exactly new to 3.5.
There isn't really any item that's half as powerful for a fighter in 3/3.5/PF as a Girdle of Giant Strength was in 1E/2E.
Just so we're clear on some stances, is anyone agreeing that slashing grace is overpowered? Because I think Dex to damage is overpowered but not at three feats in. One or two feats seems like a good enough price given Dex to damage builds I've played and seen.
Also I don't like the argument steering towards realism because my major concern is Dex creeping into territory instead of getting its own. Rather than realism I rather it follow videogame/trope logic where speedy or dexterous characters get more attacks, or hit sensitive areas rather than straight using Dex for damage. I'd love to see one handed types capable of forcing AoOs as well.
Overall I think the arguments are favoring far ends of the spectrum when we should be asking at what Dex to damage should cost rather than whether or not it should exist in the first place.
Right, Effortless Lace is also banned.
What part of "Paizo official PRD only - the ACG" is hard to get? There is no Sawtooth Saber, there is no TWF Dex to Damage without a -4/-4 to hit unless you want to take a -2 to hit so you can swing around a light weapon for some extra damage.
The Dex character wound't have bothered with 14 strength since they can put those points elsewhere, if they did bother with 14 Strength then half the argument about them being too single statted is out the window since they then have the same bloody stat investment as everyone else.
Casters are not banned outright, games are usually over at low levels so they never gain enough magical oomph to become OP.
Effortless Lace also allows effective TWF.
If 14 Str/20 Dex is the stat spread, the Dex character can actually outdamage your Fighter if he's a Swashbuckler with Power Attack.
Otherwise, yes, if you remove the only two combat styles that Dex has going for it, Strength outclasses it. Is that really news?
Hm... Assuming swashbuckler 4 his to hit would be:
4 (BAB) + 5 (dex) + 1 (weapon focus) -2 (TWF penalties) -2 (power attack) +1 mw weapon = 7
his average damage would be 3.5 (scimitar) + 5 (dexterity) + 4 (power attack) = 12.5 and 3.5 (scimitar) +2 (dexterity) +2 (power attack) = 7.5 for a total of 20 assuming all attacks hit. Note that he does not benefit from precise strike since he's TWFing.
The fighter's to hit would be:
4 (BAB) +5 (strength) +1 (weapon focus) +1 (+1 weapon) -2 (power attack) = 9
his average damage would be 7 (greatsword) +7 (strength) +6 (power attack) +2 (weapon specialization) +1 (+1 weapon) = 23 assuming his attack hits.
Note that I gave the fighter a +1 weapon since he does need to spend 2500 GP on Effortless Lace while the swashbuckler uses two mw scimitars. I estimated 4200 total for two mw rapiers, effortless lace, and mithral shirt v 3950 for a +1 greatsword and a mw full plate, which strikes me as reasonable.
Despite the swashbuckler getting class features specifically designed to make dexterity-based combat more viable, the fighter's ahead in feats, to hit and damage, has more AC and is more mobile as he does not have to rely on full attacks. Conversely the Swashbuckler is faster, has better touch AC, and he will be making multiple attacks each round and is therefore less affected by concealment and mirror image. He will also have an easier time fighting multiple weak opponents.
Now, back on topic. Frankly, if the guy won't take math arguments and is dead set against allowing dex-based combat styles be even remotely viable then I'd call it a lost cause and find another game. Alternately, one method I've used successfully in the past is to invite said GM to a campaign where I did not implement his restrictions and demonstrated that allowing those options will not break the game.
^Pretty much. If you fail at elementary level math, then there is no helping you(the GM).
Keep in mind the argument is not "which stat, out of the box, is better: Dex or Str?". Strength damage and attack is automatic. 1.5x Str on 2handed is automatic. These apply to all weapons, classes and characters. You have to invest in Dex to damage. The question is whether or not that investment cost in feats or weapon properties is undercosted.
Of the ways to get Dex to damage, I consider the weapon property the easiest method of Dex to damage for most characters.
I disagree with the OPs GMs statement that Dex to damage is OP. Clearly your GM has a diminished understanding of what constitutes OP in pathfinder.
Can you build an OP character with Dex to damage? Maybe. You can build tons of OP character types without it though.
Does this Gm also ban casters outright?
OP's GM is not in favor of Slashing/Fencing Grace. If that is the core problem in the thread then case is closed. There is no way anything is overpowered after three feats and getting locked into one handed weapons, especially since the general effect is making one stat do 1/3 of the work of another stat.
Ah. My mistake for not being clear; I meant one-handing the Dex weapon for a Swashbuckler. (cut off quote here to keep my post short)
I see! That's a great analysis and overall I agree with you, though I feel I should point out that a big part of the swashbuckler damage is precision - precise strike is a great source of damage, but it's also vulnerable to being blocked - concealment, elemental body etc. Not a huge deal, but worth mentioning.
Daring Champion is a whole other issue. Stacking Precise Strike and Challenge makes for a really interesting archetype, but I can't help but wonder what it will look like when the ACG errata is (finally) published. I'll be very surprised if it's not at least partially toned down, since at the moment it's basically Swashbuckler MK II.
Fighter, two-handing nodachi: 15.32375
Fighter, two-handing+Weapon Specialization: 16.81875
Cavalier, two-weapon fighting [Masterwork weapons]: 18.63
Cavalier, two-weapon fighting, no Challenge: 11.73
Daring Champion, single-hand scimitar: 19.1975
Daring Champion, single-hand scimitar, no Challenge: 15.1725
Swashbuckler, single-hand scimitar: 17.8875
Inspired Blade, single-hand rapier: 18.8625
A two-handed Cavalier5(Order of the the Dragon)[+11-2W6+19] with a +1GreatSword and 20Str vs AC18
(0,65x26)+0,1x(0,65x26)=
16,9+1,69 = 18,59
Nodachi puts him at 18,31
The Two Handed Cavalier is slightly behind your scimitar cavalier. If he uses his mount, a normal horse with Multiattack(the Daring Champion had to trade for Panache Stuff) as a flanking Partner he easily wins out though:
(0,75x26)+0,1x(0,75x26)+(0,35x6,5)+(2x0,25x7,5)+0,05x[(0,35x6,5)+(2x0,25x7,5)] = 19,5 + 1,95 + 2,275 + 3,75 + 0, 30125
That's around 27,78.
A lancer however would outdamage all of them even if he is a gnome or halfling. Str is 18 then.
(3x0,6x 22,5)+ 0,05X(2x0,6x 22,5)= 41,85
EDIT: Dex to Damage isn't OP damage wise(though I admit Daring Champion is a great Archetype). Even in a Core+APG Game, since all the other builds used was Power attack.
Shure the Dexbuilds get Initiative, slightly more useful skills, maybe some AC, better Touch AC and better movement speed, but they lose three feats, maybe some needed Point Buy Points.
Going this way a player will have a long way ahead of him before his build even works properly. The strength build can pick up whatever they want during that time.
Anyone, who just goes for optimisation would still take the Two-Handed Strength guy.
Whoever plays a Dex-based Martial does this for flavour. Even then Slashing Grace is subpar compared to Agile weapon, if you can get your hands on it.
I didn't bring into play things like specific Orders for Cavaliers. If I really wanted to I could, but the point was made adequately without 'em.
IT's two points of attack, he got from the Order. Put them in, because I always considered Order of the Dragon the vanilla Cavalier choice.
Lancing is going to be pretty dependent on levels and feats by my understanding. Between that, the situational nature of it of demanding a mount, and it being a pain to translate into efficient spreadsheet form, I didn't bother.
Agreed it's situational, just wanted to show, that the Dexterity based Cavalier loses out a lot of strong options.