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I recently ran my eyes of the ten group through academy of secrets to get us to level 14 for a local special, and they stomped it. it's a very optimized group with tons of shenanigans.
they beat the module so easily, they've decided they want to take on the "real" boss, who didn't appear in the module. lorthact is a CR 25 infernal duke (appears in inner sea bestiary), and I told them we could run a skirmish just for funsies (outside of PFS and without actual consequences when they die).
I want to make this as challenging as possible for them without breaking any of the rules, adding mythic tiers, etc. my experience in running high level stuff is somewhat limited, so I figured I'd solicit some advice on tactics.
the party consists of a veiled illusionist, an archer ranger with large wolf mount, a super-bard, a magus, and a crypt breaker alchemist with lots of "undying" shenanigans. all of the characters are very optimized for their roles.
in running academy, the ranger was the biggest threat. he was dealing 150+ points of damage a round with his holy bow. the veiled illusionist is really powerful but focuses mostly on control, and both the magus and alchemist could deal significant damage as well. the bard managed to successfully negotiate a contract to free the party from the academy and tosses out buffs constantly.
suggestions? I told them I'd be surprised if they could last ten rounds against this baddy, so they're going to be motivated.
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Meh, blasphemy them and call it done. :)
Edit: To be a bit more serious about it, don't have him go in unbuffed. He has freedom of movement at will, so there is no reason from him not to have activated it recently. Use that empowered horrid wilting, maybe after the quickened dispel magic to remove some of their protections. He's got greater arcane sight, he'll know exactly what they have and what he wants them to NOT have anymore. Keep in mind that his concentration check is a minimum 39. Unless they have shenanigans to change that, he will never need provoke when using his SLAs.
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If you just want to kill them...frankly, one casting of blasphemy and at least 75% of the party will be dead and that's just the first round.
How high can they hit?
Lothract has an ac of 45, without casting any self buff to boost his ac even higher.
Lothract also has the deflect arrows feat...he can literally just slap any arrows away shot at him.
I mean, yeah we could tweak him around to be a more fun fight but frankly right now, it looks like, he would just stomp your players without trying too hard.
The alchemist is the one with the best odds of actually hurting Lorthact, since he targets touch AC. (Your ranger may or may not struggle to hit Lorthact's AC. I have no idea what your ranger's numbers are like.)
After opening with a disjunction, the at-will mass suggestion and greater shadow conjuration spells seem to be your go-to abilities for just screwing with the PCs instead of killing them outright. (Though a correctly worded mass suggestion would end the fight on the spot.)
You can also use polymorph any object to inflict absurd yet potentially humorous deaths, like turning the alchemist into a shot of fine brandy and drinking him.
And yes, just blasphemy if against all odds they're actually winning. =P
Edit: Interesting. Just realized unholy aura is NOT factored into his saves, so those are really +30/+35/+34. And his AC doesn't factor turning his boots of speed on.
Also, he can burn a charge on the staff of power to do x2 damage for a round. Your discretion if his int drain ability doubles while he's doing that. So potentially 10d6+110 damage + 10 int drain if he just decides to beat someone with the ugly stick while hasted? Oh hey, power attack! His power attack mods would be -9 to hit for +27 damage, rocketing that damage number up to 10d6+380 + 10 int drain if he can land every hit. Not bad for having only a 22 Str!)
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deflect arrows means he can only deflect one arrow per turn, correct? the ranger has been getting off five shots while buffed (tho he will find it difficult to hit AC 45), the alchemist gets four bombs and shouldn't have a problem hitting touch AC 29. could certainly deflect those.
ideally, I'd love to hit each player where it hurts the most. take away the archer's bow (polymorph any object - you are now holding a rubber chicken), drain the illusionist's INT, dominate the bard, take away the magus' sword, etc.
blasphemy would most certainly kill at least half the party outright. hell, the empowered horrid wilting would do so as well.
I figure to use the greater teleport to bounce around the map as much as possible. I haven't decided yet if I'll use time stop at the very beginning to buff, or if I'll wait a few rounds and see how effective they are and hold it in reserve.
Keep in mind a fully optimized Wizard at level 14 has Simulacrum and Blood Money and can easily wipe the floor with Lorthact that way.
Anzyr, are you trying to derail this thread?
@ TOZ - the illusionist probably does or at least has the ability to know simulacrum; the GM's permissiveness, and whether the illusionist has several days to make a simulacrum posse (the spell DOES take 12 hours to cast), are different matters entirely.
Anzyr, are you trying to derail this thread?
@ TOZ - the illusionist probably does or at least has the ability to know simulacrum; the GM's permissiveness, and whether the illusionist has several days to make a simulacrum posse (the spell DOES take 12 hours to cast), are different matters entirely.
How is talking about precisely the subject matter in anyway derailing the thread? The OP has a "highly optimized" party. I'm simply informing him that Lorthact won't be much of a match for a highly optimized level 14 Wizard. That's literally what the thread is about.
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my biggest concern is them finding some cheeky shenanigans to bypass having to fight him. however, his SR is so high I think the wizard can only pass it on a 19 or 20, the bard can't at all, and the will save should be high enough to avoid any spells.
even if the ranger gets four rounds of buffed shots off, with the deflect arrows it won't be enough to get him even halfway down, and the ranger is top priority (followed by the wizard). the alchemist can do 80-100 points of damage a round but has a terrible will save.
I want to make this interesting, not just dominating the party in the first round or even outright killing them with blasphemy. he has enough SLAs that I'd love to drag it out 8-10 rounds and really show off what he can do.
did I mention I wanna be an infernal duke when I grow up?
@ Anzyr: Eh, sent you PM.
Though I'm curious as to whether when you say optimized you mean "built by someone with good system mastery" or if you mean "actively abuses rules loopholes."
If you don't draw a difference between those things, then okay.
I also have no idea if you actually looked at Lorthact's stat block. You sometimes make statements without bothering to actually check what you're commenting on. =P
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I'm looking over my options (and there are many), and have a couple questions...
Greater Shadow Evocation (DC 31) - if I use this to cast Prismatic Spray, the saves remain that DC 31 but it only deals 3/5ths damage? how does this affect the green ray? are they 60% dead if they fail the save? Flesh to Stone? Insanity? does this spell just not work as a shadow evocation?
assuming the wizard tosses up an Antimagic Field, that would suppress all of my buffs (Invisibility, Arcane Sight, Unholy Aura, etc) but also negate his ability to cast anything, correct? and if I'm within my prismatic sphere, I'm unaffected by the field entirely? and since the INT drain is a special attack and not an SLA, it's entirely unaffected by an antimagic field?
Spell Turning works on any spell with me as a target? no AoEs, but any sort of dominate or whatnot would be turned around on the caster (they're more likely to try this than direct damage spells)? how does this get affected by the Unholy Aura? does that negate the spell before it gets a chance to turn around?
I figure I can have some fun with his Programmed Image and Greater Invisibility at the outset. that'll buy me some extra time for buffing.
EDIT: I also want to make sure I effectively use his dispelling feats to their utmost, as the party will buff A LOT. Dispel Synergy means they take a -2 on all saves until ned of my next turn on a successful dispel, but I'm not sure I've got a grasp on Destructive Dispel.
When you successfully make a targeted dispel check against an opponent, that opponent must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equals the DC of the spell used to dispel) or be stunned until the start of your next turn. If the save succeeds, the opponent is instead sickened until the start of your next turn.
what is the DC of his Dispel Magic SLA? this could just drag things out for quite awhile, frustrating them, toying with them, which is just beautiful....
A damaging spell that's recognized as illusion deals 3/5ths damage.
A binary effect will still deal its full effect.
(So the green part of prismatic spray would still be a save or die, but I suppose they'd only take 3/5ths of the 1d6 con damage on a pass. Heh.)
The Int drain is Su, so it'd be shut down by a anti-magic field.
Antimagic field can't get through a Prismatic Sphere, but Lorthact can't chuck spells at people outside of the sphere either.
(And yes, unless you give him Aroden's Spellbane through Spell Reservoir, Antimagic Field is something that shuts Lorthact down pretty hard. Catching him in it is another matter, but that could be a ballsy sacrifice move by the wizard. (Since Lorthact may just beat him to death with a stick for 1d6+36 per swing.))
Trapping a PC in the Prismatic Sphere with himself and just tearing them apart could be meanly amusing. (If Lorthact and the wizard have a hobo battle inside of an antimagic shell inside of a prismatic sphere, I don't think the wizard's going to win.)
Correct on spell turning. Lorthact's own SR trumps the 25 from unholy aura, so just use his. A spell that fails against his SR wouldn't proc his spell turning.
Keep in mind that Lorthact's immune to all charm and compulsion effects because he's a Hell Duke.
Also Lorthact has always-on mind blank and greater invisibility as an at-will. Unless the party gets blindsight or blindsense somehow (such as through an echolocation spell) they basically can't see him coming.
And keep in mind he's explicitly immune to being magically researched, even beyond what the permanent mind-blank does for him.
Unless the party thinks to go to Eiseth or one of his other infernal rivals, they should be walking into this blind.
Re: Destructive dispel: It'd be 10 + Spell Level (6 for Greater Dispel) + Cha mod (+13), so 29. DC 32 if he just Disjunctions them instead of messing around with greater dispel.
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(And yes, unless you give him Aroden's Spellbane through Spell Reservoir, Antimagic Field is something that shuts Lorthact down pretty hard. Catching him in it is another matter, but that could be a ballsy sacrifice move by the wizard. (Since Lorthact may just beat him to death with a stick for 1d6+36 per swing.))
Trapping a PC in the Prismatic Sphere with himself and just tearing them apart could be meanly amusing. (If Lorthact and the wizard have a hobo battle inside of an antimagic shell inside of a prismatic sphere, I don't think the wizard's going to win.)
I suspect an antimagic field will drop almost immediately. I think I've planned for that contigency, but even if I haven't, beating the wizard to death is always an option. the field would also negate the holy bow, which is the biggest threat to him.
Keep in mind that Lorthact's immune to all charm and compulsion effects because he's a Hell Duke.
I'm aware of this, but it's one of their major tactics. I'm sure they'd try it, I wasn't sure if it would trigger the turning even if it couldn't possibly work.
Also Lorthact has always-on mind blank and greater invisibility as an at-will. Unless the party gets blindsight or blindsense somehow (such as through an echolocation spell) they basically can't see him coming.
that's just mean... I can't do anything about the mind blank, but I'll likely drop the invisibility just to mess with them. otherwise, unless there's an antimagic field up, I could kill 1-2 of them a round just with regular attacks and not even bother with the SLAs.
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Re: Destructive dispel: It'd be 10 + Spell Level (6 for Greater Dispel) + Cha mod (+13), so 29. DC 32 if he just Disjunctions them instead of messing around with greater dispel.
also, is the Dispel Synergy feat cumulative? if I drop a Mage's Disjunction on a fully buffed party and negate 3-4 effects per player, are they only taking -2 on saves, or -2 per dispelled effect?
I suspect the Destructive doesn't stack, since it only stuns until beginning of next turn.
can you dispel something like Inspire Courage, on only spells? they typically get that up, as well as Bless, Haste and Discordant Voice in the first round.
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Inspire courage, the bardic one, can't be dispelled because it is a supernatural ability (Su) but Bless, haste , spells and spell like abilities can indeed be dispelled, don't forget that he can cast greater dispel magic, as a quickened spell like ability, perfect when you want to target multiple spells with one casting. Do an area casting of dispel magic, greater.
Dispel will only work on spells. As Eltaco noted, Inspire Courage can't be dispelled.
The Dispel Synergy penalty won't stack with itself.
They can counter the greater invis with, say, glitterdust once they realize what's going on. I wouldn't recommend dropping the invis unless Lorthact has the fight firmly under control (as in, most of the PCs are disabled) and can actually safely gloat.
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Inspire courage, the bardic one, can't be dispelled because it is a supernatural ability (Su) but Bless, haste , spells and spell like abilities can indeed be dispelled, don't forget that he can cast greater dispel magic, as a quickened spell like ability, perfect when you want to target multiple spells with one casting. Do an area casting of dispel magic, greater.
Zhangar said Lorthact's (Su) Intelligence Drain was subject to an antimagic field, so I guess I'm confused on the different between Sp and Su. antimagic affects both but dispel magic does not?
and the area Greater Dispel would get a CL 25 +1d20 for everything in the area, except magic items? so the holy bow and all that still work, but all the buffs would likely go away (seeing as they don't have anything with a 16 CL in the party)?
Antimagic field explicitly shuts down Su powers. Dispel Magic can't touch 'em.
The area dispel is only going to zap one buff per person (the highest level spell), but yes.
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this has been great info, guys. I'm definitely formulating some evil plans.
how would a programmed image inside a prismatic sphere work? since it stops all spells and divinations, would they even have a chance to make the will save vs the image?
I've already informed the party that this take place in the ornelos keep in varisia, and not some other dimension or plane. do I have any options for locking down the room to prevent escape? particularly of the dim-door variety.
I figure with greater scrying and having met the party, if they tried to escape it would just be a matter of tracking them down and teleporting to them. I'd rather just prevent them leaving entirely, but I'm not really sure how to do that. limited wish for dimensional anchor? that only gets one of them.
also, why does he have Flyby Attack (feat) but no fly speed or apparent means of flight?
would it just be piling on to have the mirror of life trapping in the room with them? when is the best time to use time stop? I'm assuming between scrying and telepathy, as well as wards and traps in his keep, he'll have plenty of time to prepare for them. seems unnecessary to burn time stop at the beginning of combat for buffing, but it's also not as useful mid-combat because you can't attack anyone with time stop up.
he doesn't have any means of healing himself (other than regen 5), but I doubt that will matter. I can't imagine they'll knock off more than a couple hundred hit points before they're neutralized.
he's listed as having an Unholy Aura but it's also an at-will... just assumed to be always up?
programmed image: They'd get the will save if something comes up that causes them to realize it might be fake. Depending on what Lorthact does, that may take some time.
Unholy aura: it'll last 2 and a half minutes. You should assume it's up unless it gets dispelled somehow.
Time stop: No need to waste it on buffing if Lorthact picks when the encounter starts. Rather, save it as an emergency measure.
Also, wall spells (duped through the shadow spells) and other area spells that leave obstacles and hazards work fine in a time stop.
Mirror of Life Trapping - this might be something that gets pulled out if the party proves worth using time stop. Or it can just be in the room; the save DC isn't particularly high.
Spell reservoir: This is the answer to a lot of your issues, such as how can he fly, how can he set up a kill zone, etc. You'll need to decide how strong Lorthact's pet wizards/spell batteries are, since that determines what he can steal and how good the stolen spells are.
@ Anzyr: Eh, sent you PM.
Though I'm curious as to whether when you say optimized you mean "built by someone with good system mastery" or if you mean "actively abuses rules loopholes."
If you don't draw a difference between those things, then okay.
I also have no idea if you actually looked at Lorthact's stat block. You sometimes make statements without bothering to actually check what you're commenting on. =P
Using the rules to do exactly what they where intended to do is not "actively abusing loopholes". There will always be "strongest" options, that does not mean the strongest option is "cheating" or "abusing loopholes".
Simulacrum is intended to make half-HD copies of anything. That's what it does. Blood Money is meant to negate the costly material components of spells. That's what it does. Using them together is simply being proficient with the rules as there is no loophole to abuse.