I've made no bones that I thought several of the classes released in the ACG were poorly thought out and were very OP to the extent that a few of the core/base classes have now almost been made redundant.
Character concepts could have been far more easily achieved with simply providing more archetypes and tweaks through feats.... with the added benefit that classes were enriched rather than eradicated.
The question is.... in the future will we look back on the ACG as the point at which PF started on a downward spiral? Did character creation for the sake of character creation and profit hunger win out over common sense?
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I like the classes that make the rogue outdatet Best in that book.
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The ACG created a class stronger than the Wizard? That's news to me.
It didn't even invalidate the Rogue. The Core Rulebook did that already.
The ACG created a class stronger than the Wizard? That's news to me.
It didn't even invalidate the Rogue. The Core Rulebook did that already.
In ouer games the Arcanist Will be stronger than the wizard(the School savant at least) but most important it is Way more fun to play. But in some games wizard is still King.
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It's not so much the class concepts(*) as the massive ocean of Errata that are needed but as far as I can tell still not out.
(*)Yes, Rogue and to a lesser extent Ninja and Fighter need some fixing to make them competitive for single-classed use, but that was true even before ACG/ACO.
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I won't touch the ACG, but still no to the premise.
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No. The classes make hybrid builds easier by doing the work for you. For example - I already had players trying to build warpriests and not being sure of how to do it long before the ACG hit.
BTW - Welcome to another bloat thread! I look forward to another 150 pages.
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Eh. Ignoring the rogue (we all know how this forum feels about that), this hardly invalidates the core classes.
You just haven't looked at the cool things that ACG brought that everyone can use.
I particularly love the fortuitous weapon property, which greatly powers up 2 handed reach builds. Fighters are still strong choices for that (particularly since you can focus on other combat roles at the same time with all your feats)
Oh, and I have been looking into disheartening display to make intimidation builds that synergize with the new eldritch guardian from familiar folio. Getting enemies to a frightened state before anyone even moves can be sweet.
And fighters got new archetypes like the mutagenic warrior, which gave flight and more +'s through mutagens. So that is very much in line with the 'tweaks' from archetypes that you wanted.
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I think the power creep started before the ACG.
However, GMs that have enough backbone can choose the content they want in the game and the content they do not. If the players want more than the GM wants, the GM can decide if that particular group is for him...or the players can decide if the GM is the GM for them.
When I started my homebrew game, I laid everything out on the table. I told my players which books I wanted to use, what content was not allowed, and what homebrew rules I wanted to use. I told them that if they wanted to make a case for opening up other content, I would be willing to listen...but ultimately the choice was mine. During the game, we made a number of adjustments to make things more enjoyable for everyone (most of which was throwing out some of the homebrew rules I had thought would work better than they did).
No. The classes make hybrid builds easier by doing the work for you. For example - I already had players trying to build warpriests and not being sure of how to do it long before the ACG hit.
BTW - Welcome to another bloat thread! I look forward to another 150 pages.
I Think the warpriest is close to being weaker than the cleric in "warpriest" as it is. At least at 1 and from 5 and up.
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I understand the meaning of the thread, though instead of being the beginning I believe it actually propels the game into the GM choosing what is and isn't allowed and thus enriches the game further.
For instance, the Hybrid classes are clever and cover many ranges that means you do not have to have 9th level spells at 20th level to be effective... GM's do not need to fear Miracle and Wish as they can restrict by allowing classes that have no 9th level spell progression...
The beginning of the end will happen only when people lose or do not control their games. Bloat happens when you engorge yourself unhealthy with the options available.
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The end is nigh friends, the end is nigh.
I do wish people wouldnt get so into semantics and pedantics!
The essence of what I'm saying is that it feels that the ACG was a real tipping point in PF bloat..... it is the first time I can remember that classes appeared that actually put other classes almost into retirement. Up until that additional classes filled holes.... I really dont think many of the ACG classes served much purpose.
The arcanist took a real bite out of the wizard and IMO virtually puts the Sorceror into retirement.
Bloodrager puts Barbarian in the shade
The Shaman... a complete farce IMO.... just when I thought the Oracle was OP with Divine Protection and add to Charisma to everything.... then along comes the Shaman! Single handedly it has almost put the Oracle, Witch, Cleric and Druid out of business entirely!! What is a real joke was that the Druid had a whole load of Shaman archetypes years before the ACG!!!! I mean... why even bother?!?!!?
And the Swashbuckler has put the cat amongst the pigeons too!
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I've made no bones that I thought several of the classes released in the ACG were poorly thought out and were very OP to the extent that a few of the core/base classes have now almost been made redundant.
Character concepts could have been far more easily achieved with simply providing more archetypes and tweaks through feats.... with the added benefit that classes were enriched rather than eradicated.
The question is.... in the future will we look back on the ACG as the point at which PF started on a downward spiral? Did character creation for the sake of character creation and profit hunger win out over common sense?
To make a long story short No
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The ACG was the logical result of Paizo's slowly declining quality control, but it's certainly not "the beginning of the end" (unless future releases are just as poorly edited or moreso) or even an indicator of bloat.
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Bloodrager with draconic bloodline and then prestige into dragon disciple. Turn into a dragon and then rage. OP.
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Bloodrager with draconic bloodline and then prestige into dragon disciple. Turn into a dragon and then rage. OP.
This is literally no different than a Barbarian/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. Wait, no, it's not "literally" as there are very, very fine differences that lead to this being no better than a Barb/Sorc/DD
Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple can, in fact, be seen as actually WORSE than the pure Bloodrager, depending on how your DM rules the "levels stack with bloodline" rule - whether it only stacks with SORCERER levels as it states outright, or whether it stacks with ANY bloodline class.
Barbarian/Sorc/Bloodrager gets you pretty much everything a Bloodrager/DD would, but with better and more varied spells.
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I do wish people wouldnt get so into semantics and pedantics!
The essence of what I'm saying is that it feels that the ACG was a real tipping point in PF bloat..... it is the first time I can remember that classes appeared that actually put other classes almost into retirement. Up until that additional classes filled holes.... I really dont think many of the ACG classes served much purpose.
The arcanist took a real bite out of the wizard and IMO virtually puts the Sorceror into retirement.
Bloodrager puts Barbarian in the shade
The Shaman... a complete farce IMO.... just when I thought the Oracle was OP with Divine Protection and add to Charisma to everything.... then along comes the Shaman! Single handedly it has almost put the Oracle, Witch, Cleric and Druid out of business entirely!! What is a real joke was that the Druid had a whole load of Shaman archetypes years before the ACG!!!! I mean... why even bother?!?!!?
And the Swashbuckler has put the cat amongst the pigeons too!
On average the Wizard is still better than the Arcanist, except in some niches filled by certain archetypes. Sorcerer still has the same place it had before.
Barbarian and Bloodrager are different beasts. I give you the Primalist archetype of the Bloodrager, that can be silly as it can get the best of both.
As for the Shaman, you do realise that the Spirit Guide Oracle is a better Shaman than the Shaman? It is in no way better than any of the classes you list, even if only due to the quite lacklustre spell list. On average the Shaman hexes either aren't that great or are also available to the Witch. It does get versatility but the Spirit Guide Oracle still does that better (and has a better spell list).
As for the Swashbuckler, the only thing that did was make Cavaliers better via the Daring Champion archetype.
The only class that I feel was really outdated due to the ACG is the Rogue. Then again, it still was nothing but a few extra nails in its coffin. The Fighter actually got better with the ACG archetypes.
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Did you just say the shaman put the druid out of business? The druid? Are you serious? It doesn't have near the combat power. It might be a better 'caster', but it doesnt have an answer for wildshape or the best of the animal companions (namely those with pounce) not even close.
You can not like the hybrid classes. But to say they dont server a purpose is simply false. They make certain concepts easier to put together. The only thing i would say i agree with you on is the arcanist, but it still doesnt replace either the sorceror or the wizard in theme or function. Nothing except the rogue has been replaced except in games that are completely absent of optimization, and that is only because the hybrid classes make their respective concepts easier to put together.
Other then the rogue, no class from anywhere in the game has been replaced in what it's best at. Its just that more of the gaps in between what each class does best is now more filled in.
Basically. More concepts can be done well. As opposed to having to choose between what is effective, and what fits your concept. They serve a purpose to those of us that prefer base classes that come in a nice neat package. I dont have to mess with archetypes that may or may not do what i want, or fiddle with feats to try to make things fit. I want to buckle some swash, i have a swashbuckler. If I want a face beating arcane character, i have the bloodrager, if I want want sherlock holmes, bam investigator. Are there some problem options in that book? Sure, but there have been in EVERY option heavy rpg book. Most of the classes, if taken on their own, and for their respective concepts are good ideas, that will be fun to play.
And if you honestly, disagree, fine, dontuse them. I am seriously getting tired of the end of the world threads. No one is putting a gun to your head to force you to buy more books. Heck, paizo offers them up for free for reference if say a swashbuckler turns up in an adventure. This costs you nothing you dont want it to. Others on the other hand, will have lots of fun because of it. Get over it.
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I've made no bones that I thought several of the classes released in the ACG were poorly thought out and were very OP to the extent that a few of the core/base classes have now almost been made redundant.
Character concepts could have been far more easily achieved with simply providing more archetypes and tweaks through feats.... with the added benefit that classes were enriched rather than eradicated.
The question is.... in the future will we look back on the ACG as the point at which PF started on a downward spiral? Did character creation for the sake of character creation and profit hunger win out over common sense?
Whether you've made no bones about it, you've shown that you know about as much of what you're talking about as a chipmunk understands quantum mechanics.
There is nothing in the ACG that is more powerful than a Wizard with just Core Rulebook spells and feats.
Even the Exploiter Wizard is debatably no better than a Core-Only Wizard.
Arcanist is a damn strong class, but not better than the Wizard.
Are you supposing that the Rogue was made obsolete by the Investigator or Brawler? Because many people argue that the Rogue was obsolete upon inception.
Was the Monk made Obsolete by the Brawler? Because, again, the Monk, while more powerful than its 3.5 version, is squarely outclassed in the Core Rulebook, and only gained some ground with the advance of Archetypes.
The Bloodrager is totally OP, right? It totally destroys any need for Barbarian, right? Uh, no. Thread after thread has shown that the Bloodrager, while flavorfully badass beyond any doubt, is no stronger than the Barbarian. Maybe stronger than the CORE Barbarian, but a Barbarian with access to the myriad Rage Powers in the PRD, and the Invulernable Rager archetype? Absolutely not. The Bloodrager and Barbarian are twin classes that are tied for effectiveness, and both are a blast to play.
What about the Shaman? Honestly, I've not played the Shaman, but I haven't heard one peep that it's more powerful than a Cleric, Wizard, Druid, or even a Witch or Sorcerer.
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tl;dr - no the ACG wasn't OP, most people are quite fine with the classes, and no, this isn't the beginning of the end for Pathfinder.
The ACG had annoying editing problems, but that's more a hiccup in the product line, and will be dealt with in time.
Bloodrager with draconic bloodline and then prestige into dragon disciple. Turn into a dragon and then rage. OP.
So by level 15 you Can turn in to a huge dragon twice every Day? I Think it is ok option but hardly OP compared to what you normally Can do by level 15. 6 attacks at full Bab? Sounds close to what the monk or brawler Can do. And the spell casting Will be a joke compared to a sorcerer 5/DD 10 Can do.
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This is totally going to be deleted, and yes, I'm being a giant Richard, but I don't care.
Here's a translation of the OP statement:
This is new and scary, and I won't use it because it's new and scary, and I don't like it because it's new and scary, so it must be broken because nothing old is broken but new things are broken, and this is the end everybody RUUUUUUN
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To the OP: No. I don't think historiographers will look back and pinpoint the ACG as the beginning of the end. I also look forward to Occult Adventures.
Like most posters here, I'm wasting away with fatigue and despondency from the sheer assault of threads decrying the "problem" of having or even merely being presented with more options. It is simply ludicrous.
I really want the moderators to make a "Complain here" subforum for folks to vent in, or conflate every new "oh noes the game is borked now because x" thread into one..
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Let alone the fact that I'm gobsmacked that anyone would find options problematic.
By all means don't wonder over to the happy happy (and thriving I might add) land of third party publishers with their barbaric and unruly practice of willy-nilly creating even moar options.
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Oh noes! More neat classes! More proof the rogue is useless! A dex-based martial! Character options!
*runs in circles flailing arms like Kermit*
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ummmmmmmm...bloat threads
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ummmmmmmm...bloat threads
*kick, stomp, punch, people's elbow*
Nope. Not tired yet.
*Kick* *hide thread*
To the OP: No. I don't think historiographers will look back and pinpoint the ACG as the beginning of the end. I also look forward to Occult Adventures.
Like most posters here, I'm wasting away with fatigue and despondency from the sheer assault of threads decrying the "problem" of having or even merely being presented with more options. It is simply ludicrous.
I really want the moderators to make a "Complain here" subforum for folks to vent in, or conflate every new "oh noes the game is borked now because x" thread into one..
Yeah, it is Unchained that we should watch for. Will they actually buff the rogue invalidating Core version or nerf the Summoner so original is hugely better.
Well the Slayer & Investigator just felt like salt in those old Rogue-y wounds, but as the people say, there's not much that outclasses a vanilla mage or cleric.
Compared to the Summoner with the crazy "level 9 spells on a 2/3 caster" nonsense the ACG is downright reasonable.
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I feel like sometimes some people just parrot what they saw elsewhere with zero context or understanding of a situation. It's a real nasty issue.
The Druid is by far the single most versatile class in practice. Versatile meaning it's ability to solve a wide-range of issues on the fly. The Wizard is the most powerful class in theory and in many cases in reality. Power in this instance meaning having the greatest game changing effects accessible to it.
The Cleric is boring as heck to make as a character and I'm not worried at all that it might be invalidated eventually. Still an incredibly powerful class. The Shaman will never invalidate the Cleric simply because it doesn't get as easy access to it's status removal spells and has a more battlefield controllery type of spell list.
Really, this opening poster has little evidence for their fears.
Come back with facts and maybe you'd have a point but till then, there's really nothing to see here folks.
The only feeling you should feel about the ACG is disappointment in the text wasted on some of the poorer options in that book. I'm just glad we got the Sacred Fist out of the Warpriest and the Daring Champion Cavalier from the Swashbuckler's poisoned corpse.
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I have a nice safe cave that you, and your tasty... I mean trusty friends can hide in to stay succulent... er secure while the sky is falling.
As others have said, if you are concerned about stuff, don't use it. I frequently run core only as it means I don't have to keep track of every single thing available in every sourcebook.
I think after occult adventures the hard cover line is going to switch to more campaign related stuff..thats good news no more rules bloat
As for the Shaman, you do realise that the Spirit Guide Oracle is a better Shaman than the Shaman? It is in no way better than any of the classes you list, even if only due to the quite lacklustre spell list. On average the Shaman hexes either aren't that great or are also available to the Witch. It does get versatility but the Spirit Guide Oracle still does that better (and has a better spell list).
Shaman is much better then Spirit Guide Oracle in practically every way imaginable. Shaman is hands down one of the strongest classes in the game at the moment, it certainly invalidates Clerics and it competing with the Wizard for strongest Class in the game thanks to it's ability to rob Cleric/Oracle spells with Favored Class Bonuses and steal different Sorcerer/Wizard spells every day. Not to mention the 3/4th BAB, the 4+ INT skills, better versions of Witch Hexes (feel bad yet clerics?), actual class abilities, spontaneous spells out of a flexible list (seriously Clerics its over), and their hexes are flexible. So ya, Spirit Guide Oracle, can't touch this.
(There is one small exception where Spirit Guide Oracles are better, but it's very limited exception, and if that exception is being applied, Razmiran Priest Sylvan Sorcerer is the real winner. I'm not sharing the exception, but I'm sure most people know what I'm talking about.)
I think after occult adventures the hard cover line is going to switch to more campaign related stuff..thats good news no more rules bloat
What makes you think this? so far the campaign setting hardcovers have been additional books, and not part of the main RPG subscription.
I doubt the next unannounced book will have any new classes (and if it does it will be only 1 or 2), but I wouldn't expect to an end to new rules content any time shortly.
I think after occult adventures the hard cover line is going to switch to more campaign related stuff..thats good news no more rules bloatWhat makes you think this? so far the campaign setting hardcovers have been additional books, and not part of the main RPG subscription.
I doubt the next unannounced book will have any new classes (and if it does it will be only 1 or 2), but I wouldn't expect to an end to new rules content any time shortly.
I could see something along the lines of Bestiary 5, a third Codex book (maybe Monster Codex II, or, hell DRAGON Codex - oh, god I'm having kittens just THINKING about THAT book).
It seems like their might be a respite from new classes again for a while. The ACG was a thing, and Occult Adventures basically demanded that classes of some manner or another be added. So long as the Spiritualist, Psychic, and Mesmerist are made Alternate Classes of the Summoner, Sorc, and Bard respectively, instead of passed off as "all new classes!" (since they're obviously just psychic reskins of those classes), I'll be happy.
I think the Dev team may be moving in a Variants direction of things, though, considering first Mythic Adventures and now Occult Adventures have become a thing.
What's to follow may be Planar Adventures, Exotic Adventures, Space Adventures, Temporal Adventures (including time-travel in campaigns would be neat, but odd to handle, yet the possibility of introducing a large blue box as a Major Artifact is just too great to pass up), or other genre-bending variant books.
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Don't like it?
Don't buy it.
Don't use it.
Don't allow it.
I have gone past tired to generally entertained when people moan about Pathfinder and Paizo on these boards. And now I seem to be going full circle to tired again.
It has a lot of parallels to Jim Gaffigan's standup on McDonald's. You complain, but they're making money hand over fist, and people still eat there.
Particularly, his comparison to the teenager makes me think of people who whine about bloat, lack of quality, overall downward trend of products, etc...but still follow every new release and play the games and use their forums*. "I hate you! I never want to see you again!..........when's dinner?"
*Maybe it's just me, but I don't hang out around the Wizards forums since I got off of the WotC train. I could've lagged around and whined about 4th/5th edition, but maybe that's just me.
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Don't like it?
Don't buy it.
Don't use it.
Don't allow it.I have gone past tired to generally entertained when people moan about Pathfinder and Paizo on these boards. And now I seem to be going full circle to tired again.
It has a lot of parallels to Jim Gaffigan's standup on McDonald's. You complain, but they're making money hand over fist, and people still eat there.
Particularly, his comparison to the teenager makes me think of people who whine about bloat, lack of quality, overall downward trend of products, etc...but still follow every new release and play the games and use their forums*. "I hate you! I never want to see you again!..........when's dinner?"
*Maybe it's just me, but I don't hang out around the Wizards forums since I got off of the WotC train. I could've lagged around and whined about 4th/5th edition, but maybe that's just me.
TL;DR: "Unless you're 110% completely satisfied with every product Paizo makes you might as well not use these boards."
Yeah no, I'm not here to suck Paizo's dick, I'm here because I like the game, but I don't like when they make poor additions to the game, or their products are lacking in quality, and I will let them know what I don't like and exactly why I don't like it, so maybe they will realize it was a bad idea and not do that again going forward.
The fun thing about Pathfinder is, I can still use everything that's worth using without spending a red cent on getting those bundled with the crap I don't like. The OGL is pretty wonderful that way.
Actually, the message board thing was an aside. Thus the asterisk.
It was the "I hate this its going downhill its all terrible...when's the next game?" that was kind of the point. An amusing parallel to another blittled yet frequented franchise.
I'm curious, Anzyr. You put together the full-out level 20 Wizard for that Wizard vs. Mythic Martial thing. Would you be willing to do the same with a Shaman, under the same conditions, to form an effective comparison?Shaman is much better then Spirit Guide Oracle in practically every way imaginable. Shaman is hands down one of the strongest classes in the game at the moment, it certainly invalidates Clerics and it competing with the Wizard for strongest Class in the game thanks to it's ability to rob Cleric/Oracle spells with Favored Class Bonuses and steal different Sorcerer/Wizard spells every day. Not to mention the 3/4th BAB, the 4+ INT skills, better versions of Witch Hexes (feel bad yet clerics?), actual class abilities, spontaneous spells out of a flexible list (seriously Clerics its over), and their hexes are flexible. So ya, Spirit Guide Oracle, can't touch this.
(There is one small exception where Spirit Guide Oracles are better, but it's very limited exception, and if that exception is being applied, Razmiran Priest Sylvan Sorcerer is the real winner. I'm not sharing the exception, but I'm sure most people know what I'm talking about.)
It'd look pretty much exactly the same, though it's initiative would be lower due to lack of Foresight, but it would gain a few more abilities and higher AC/saves through Cleric/Oracle Spells mugged via FCB (my build would still be a Half-Elf) as well as some excellent Hexes. With not terrible start INT/CHA, a +6 headband, age bonuses, and inherent bonuses from Wishes, the number of Sorcerer/Wizard spells would be enough to replicate most of my tactics.