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I've never gone for a rogue build before, so I think I'm going to take a shot at it. This character will be for PFS classic mode. I'll sum up what I'm going for first, and then get into the questions.
RP - I'm thinking he's going to be a charming dastard with a mask, cape, and exuding confidence and class. I may use a lot of alliterative speech and rhyming, somewhat reminiscent of V for Vendetta. He will worship Count Ranalc, and may call himself simple The Viscount. I will focus on social and scouting skills, though if I can't afford a great CHA that is fine. I am comfortable rolling to aid another if there is a better party face at the table.
Mechanics - needing concealment or cover to initiate a Stealth check can be a hassle. I've thought of a way around that. My first level or two will be as a Warpriest of Count Ranalc. I will take the Darkness blessing, which gives me partial concealment for 1 minute at a time (basically, inky shadows spring up all around you). The plan is to sneak in for the surprise round, and then constantly flit between enemies in Stealth for new sneak attacks, or even just move around an enemy for one. If the stealth check succeeds they aren't allowed AoOs.
So, here are my questions.
1) In Rogue Eidolon's optimization guide, he implies that in a full attack from Stealth, all of the attacks from the rogue get SA die. Is that the case?
2) What rogue talents would you recommend? I know fast stealth is going to be my first one in all likelihood, and I'm sure I'll want to pick up an extra feat at some point. Are there other must-haves?
3) Feat choices? I'll be choosing the rapier as my focused weapon (It's Count Ranalc's favored, and makes a lot of sense for the flavor of the character) so Weapon Finesse + Fencing Grace seem like obvious choices. (Maybe a level of Inspired Blade?) I'm also considering the Spring Attack line. Mobility would be a good thing to have considering how often I'll be moving within threatened ranges. I suppose Skill Focus (stealth) may not be a bad idea either.
4) Items? I know I'm going for the gloves of reconnaissance, Dex belt, and probably a keen weapon. I'll probably get Shadow armor as well.
Also, just kind of a catch-all: are there really great things to do with rogues that I'm not thinking of at all here?
alright, imma drop some major stuff on you, sorry in advance:
a lot of folks here (myself included) feel/have mathematically shown that rogue is a tad... subpar. there are many classes that can pull off everything you listed as wanting for your rogue, but are better at it.
the slayer and investigator readily spring to mind, but the bard, alchemist, ranger, and inquisitor can all do much the same as well, while having better saves and skills, great tertiary abilities and spellcasting, and not relying on the finicky sneak attack mechanic to meaningfully contribute in combat.
(like seriously, i'd be almost willing to bet money that a straight darkness blessing warpriest could pull of what you want)
the ninja (despite the name) seems like almost exactly what you want as well, and note that it doesn't require you use eastern weapons and run around wearing black stage-hand garb--and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!
at it's core it's a cha-reliant stealthy attacker with abilities to actually utilize it's core ability reliably (sneak attacking from invisibility/greater invisibility), but still suffers many of the defensive pitfalls of the rogue class (listed below).
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all that said however, if you want to take the harder road and play a rogue there's a few things you'll have to keep in mind to build around:
-melee-centric class with bad HD and armor availability means you'll need to be extremely careful not to draw attention to yourself, since the creature your flanking might just turn and kill you outright.
-bad fort and will saves: this is a death sentence post-level 6, since most enemies start gaining access to save-or-die or save-or-suck SLAs that target those two abilities. you MUST shore up at least one of them if you plan to survive.
-the two above combined make you a rather MAD class, requiring strength for damage, dex for AC, con for hp/fort saves, and wis for will saves. this puts you in the same stat-boat as the monk unless you can shave them down, like with fencing/slashing grace or dervish dance (all of which cost 2-3 feats).
-most rogue talents are pure garbage: they either seem useful but have a once-per-day limit (like hunter's surprise) or make you actually WORSE at doing something (such as rumormonger). all of the 'best' talents grant feats (finesse rogue/weapon training/combat trick/feat/etc)--which is backhanded, since a class ability should be worth spending a feat on like extra rage power, not the other way around.
-you MUST play a race with darkvision (or pay a feat tax), otherwise you will be unable to use sneak attack anywhere with dim light or lower (because concealment shuts down sneak attack and paizo forgot that).
-due to skill changes from 3.5e to pathfinder, tumbling to avoid an AoO is almost impossible, since you roll against the enemy's CMD now (which scales almost exponentially the higher level you go), and makes stealth incredibly difficult in some situations.
-you MUST find some way to get sneak attack reliably or else you're going to end up a sack of potatoes in combat--flanking, feinting, stealth, etc. all work, but require yet more feats to get reliably.
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if you STILL wish to try out the rogue, here are some example builds to draw some ideas from:
'Iconic' rogue
synopsis: sneaky, dex focused, can flank with himself (eventually). i tried to hit as many of the 'headcanon rogue' bases as possible. still suffers from a bad fort and only half-decent will save though
(rog 6 / HW 3 / rog +11)
*scimitar proficiency gained from swashbuckler; FCB spent on 2 rogue talents and 5 HP
stats
str 10, dex 17 (7+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 13 (3), cha 14 (5)
traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)
rogue talents:
2 - Combat Trick (Dervish Dance)
4 - Combat Trick (Shadow Strike)
6 - Minor Magic (Detect Magic), FCB: Weapon Training (scimitar)
11 - Fast Stealth
13* - Feat (Dimensional Savant)
15* - Opportunist, FCB: Improved Evasion
17* - Skill Mastery (acrobatics, disable device, [face skill], perception, sense motive, stealth)
19* - ???
* - available to take advanced talents
feats:
1 - Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (stealth)
3 - Endurance
5 - Steadfast Personality
7 - Hellcat Stealth
8 - Skill Focus (UMD)
9 - Dimensional Agility
11 - Dimensional Assault
13 - Dimensional Dervish
15 - Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 1)
16 - Skill Focus (perception)
17 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 9)
19 - Dampen Presence
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BAD TOUCH ROGUE
synopsis: using the elf racial FCB and the major magic talent (chill touch) to bypass the usual accuracy issues of the class.
(ROG 6/HW 3/ROG 11)
* - dual-minded alt. racial taken
str 16 (5+2), dex 14 (5), con 14 (5), int 13 (3), wis 12 (2), cha 10
traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)
talents:
4 - major magic (chill touch 10/day *FCB*)
6 - minor eldritch magic (blur 2/day)
11 - major eldritch magic (twilight knife 2/day)
13* - feat (dimensional savant)
15* - opportunist
17* - skill mastery (stealth, acrobatics, disable device, perception, bluff, sleight of hand)
19* - improved evasion
feats:
1 - racial heritage (gillmen)
3 - extra rogue talent: minor magic (prestidigitation 12/day)
5 - endurance
7 - arcane strike
9 - dimensional agility
11 - dimensional assault
13 - dimensional dervish
15 - quicken spell-like ability (chill touch)
17 - quicken spell-like ability (blur)
19 - quicken spell-like ability (twilight knife)
FCB - minor magic 9 / major magic 8
+X heartseeking keen menacing courageous kukri,
+5 mithral buckler
+6 str/dex belt and wis headband
boots of heroism are a must
clear spindle+wayfinder ASAP
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'iconic' rogue v2
synopsis: attempts to combine both of the above, replacing horizon walker with shadowdancer
(levels go ROG 6/SD 3/ROG +11)
* - scimitar for swashbuckler weapon; 6 FCB to extra talent (human), 11 FCB to +5 minor/+6 major magic talent uses (elf); dual-minded alt. racial ability taken.
stats - dex>cha>con>wis>int>str (don't dump str!)
traits - trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)
talents
2 - combat trick (dervish dance)
4 - combat trick (mobility)
6 - minor magic (detect magic 8/day), major magic (chill touch 8/day)
9 - weapon training (scimitar)
11 - fast stealth
13* - opportunist
15* - ???
17* - ???
19* - ???
feats
1 - weapon finesse
3 - dodge
5 - combat reflexes
7 - steadfast personality
9 - skill focus (stealth)
11 - hellcat stealth
13 - dampen presence
15 - ???
17 - ???
19 - ???
note that these trade out some core rogue abilities with archetypes and regain them with traits--another small middle finger from paizo, but you get used to those.
some require specific deity worship (gorum or torag in this case), but they're not required for the build to function, so don't fret there.
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and to answer your questions:
1. as far as i know: yes, unless you're attacking from invisibility (regular invisibility breaks after the first attack, only applying sneak attack to that one, unfortunately). any attacks made on an opponent who isn't immune to crits/precision damage, isn't benefiting from some form of concealment, and is denied their dex to AC takes sneak attack damage (flank and invisibility being two of the easier methods to do so).
2. off the top of my head: finesse rogue, combat trick, minor magic (detect magic), and weapon training are pretty-catch-all, with things like major magic (chill touch) for elves/half elves, fast stealth for sneaky builds, and opportunist for builds that can reliably get a flanking partner.
3. some manner of pruning down the class' MADness (such as weapon finesse+weapon focus+slashing/fencing grace or weapon finesse+dervish dance), some way to shore up the class' saves (iron will, great fortitude, steadfast personality, etc.), any feat-taxes you require (such as shadowstrike for races without lowlight or darkvision), and anything that boosts your accuracy. some of the flanking teamwork feats are nice if you have a teammate willing to take them as well.
there's also more niche feat uses, like nature soul+animal ally+boon companion for a full-advancement animal companion as a flanking buddy, hellcat stealth+improved eldritch heritage (shadow well)+dampen presence for near-invisibility via stealth, feinting feats, etc.
4. the "big four" (headband/belt of [STATS], ring of protection, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor), boots of the battle herald (A++ item right there, holy crap!), clear spindle ioun stone+wayfinder off the top of my head.
the heartseeking and menacing weapon enchants can be very helpful as well later on.
(pardon the doublepost) but again: sorry for just dumping on you.
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Your question 1 is no, when you make the first attack roll stealth ends. Or when you end your move out if cover or concealment.
Fast stealth is a difference of 5, its not often on my list of talents.
Feats - shadow strike, arcane strike (combined with rt slas), dodge&mobility if you're going shadowdancer, sap adept & master (if you have a method to obtain flat footed.
Talents - my personal favorites minor magic acid splash, major magic true strike, combat trick, ninja trick - pressure points, offensive defense, trap spotter
Items - the alchemical treatments are your friend, bottled lightning for touch attacks, a wand of inflict, a wand of true strike, recon gloves ;-) , spell storing daggers (confirm w gm it works), celestial armor (very long term) menacing agile weapon.
Have fun
righty: the ending out of cover/concealment doesnt apply if you have hide in plain sight, no? (though that's just me wondering, not particularly relevant to the thread)
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AndIMustAsk - lots of great advice, thanks. I know the 'rogues are bad' arguments, and I dont' disagree with them. I just really want a scout with sneak attack for this one character, and I'm trying to make it as reliable as possible.
As far as sneaks on iteratives, taking an attack immediately ends a Stealth. It's in the rules for a skill. It ends on your first attack, and you can't roll another Stealth check during an attack (also in the skill rules). Iteratives would get SA die if you are in flanking or have another way to deny the enemy their Dex. If I remember correctly, there are some Intimimancy feats that could help with that. I'll decide between that and Nature Soul + Boon Companion.
I will be looking at Ninja more closely. The reason I don't want to go with Slayer (I realize it is, all in all, a much better class than rogue) is that they have far fewer SA die. If I'm going to be a Stealth character, I want to sacrifice as few SA die as possible while still being able to reliably enter stealth (which the WP Darkness blessing gets me). I debated going Shadowdancer, but having to wait until level 6 and only being able to do this while in 10 feet of dim light sounds irritating.
Boots of the Battle Herald seem quite nice, but their price tag makes them an unreasonable purchase for a PFS career. Boots of Speed might be more my...speed.
In any case, I'll post a few possible build paths later on, I hope you guys will give me some input on them.
i'll point out that slayer despite having fewer SA dice, it largely covers that distance with static bonuses (both to hit and to damage), making it a great deal more effective at reliably dealing damage (and stealth bonuses are silly easy to boost with that class).
the number of dice is pretty misleading, honestly.
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also, do note the overall bonuses granted by having greater heroism on-tap all adventuring day.
then consider that it's extended by things like community minded (trait) and is boosted by the courageous enchant (and is gotten often enough to actually warrant the purchase of said enchant, which in turn affects any other morale bonuses you might have). it's certainly expensive i'll grant, but more than worth it in the long run.
i mean +2 reflex/+1 accuracy/+20 ground speed and an extra attack on full attacks are certainly good, but i'm not sure it even compares to +4 (more with courageous) to accuracy (a pitfall of the class), saves (a MAJOR pitfall of the class), skill checks, immunity to fear and bonus hp, especially since there's more than one way to get extra attacks via spells.
then again, if you have access to both buffs (such as a party bard or wizard who isn't using their actions being more useful), it doesn't really matter which you choose, since you can have both.
(personally my hierarchy is battle herald > winged > haste, since winged boots let you apply your speed in 3D, which is certainly more flexible than haste)
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also, i forgot the nature fang crocodile domain druid! decent SA advancement, slayer favored target (and slayer/rogue talents), AND 9th level divine casting (including things like flame blade for touch AC shenanigans).
oh no, i wasnt disputing the after attack bit, i specifically referred to the ending your actions outside of cover or concealment.
(since i'm genuinely curious about it)
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Okay, here's what I've got. I eventually realized that Saps can get a lot more SA damage in than rapiers, but will be impossible to get Dex to damage, and lots of things are immune to nonlethal. I wanted to be able to consistently get SA off, and getting the feats for that was tough. I went Wayang, which means getting a good enough Wis to make Fervor useful is pretty much out of the question. For that reason, I'm going Inspired Blade Swashbuckler at level 1 (for the extra feats, with deeds as a pleasant bonus), Warpriest at 2 (for the Blessing of Darkness, with Nobility and the saves as pleasant bonuses) and Ninja the rest of the way.
The Viscount
Wayang – AR trait Dissolution’s Child
Starting Stats: (items and level based increases not factored)
STR - 10
DEX – 18 (racial bonus)
CON - 14
INT – 10 (racial bonus)
WIS – 10 (racial detriment)
CHA - 14
Inspired Blade 1/Warpriest 1/Ninja 9
Blessings – Darkness, Nobility
Feats, traits, and tricks: [brackets] mean it is a class feature
Traits: One for Fort and one for Will saves
Inspired Blade 1: [Weapon Focus: Rapier, Weapon Finesse: Rapier], Fencing Grace, [deeds/panache]
Warpriest 1 (2nd): [Blessings]
Ninja 1 (3rd): Nature Soul
Ninja 2 (4th): [Ninja Trick: Fast Stealth]
Ninja 3 (5th): Animal Ally – Small Cat
Ninja 4 (6th): [Ninja Trick: Slow Reflexes]
Ninja 5 (7th): Boon Companion – Large Cat
Ninja 6 (8th): [Ninja Trick: Combat Trick - Outflank]
Ninja 7 (9th): Stealth Synergy
Ninja 8 (10th): [Ninja Trick – Combat Trick: Dodge]
Ninja 9 (11th): Mobility
Items: Swashbuckler’s Flair (Blue Sash), Dex Belt, CHA Headband, Gloves of Reconaissance, Boots of Striding and Springing, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, Lenses of Detection, Cloak of Resistance, Sipping Jacket, Ring of Protection, Swarmbane Clasp, Shadow Armor, Weapon Enhancements considered [keen, heartseeker, fortuitous]
Thoughts? I know this won't be an optimal build, but I think it will be pretty viable. The WP level and traits will help a bit with saves, but I'll probably be investing in my Cloak quite a bit anyhow. I will be an at least semi-competent combatant off the bat, be good at sneaking, and my Animal Companion will be quite nice from 7 onward.
The tactical plan is to get a surprise attack, and then flit about the battlefield from enemy to enemy in Stealth for more sneak attacks. Kind of like V for Vendetta. That is why I need the Blessing of Darkness (allows for constant concealment), high Stealth, and Slow Reflexes. Mobility would be nice, but I don't have the feats for it and the companion too.
The other option I saw for semi-consistent flat-footed would be going for Shatter Defenses. Unfortunately, it's at least level 8 or 9 before I can take that, which is too late in a PFS career for me to build around. Besides, I already have an intimidator character in mind, and my Asmodean is a better conceptual fit for that than Count Ranalc.
EDIT: Yes, those boots are nice. 30k is about 40% of the gold this character will ever possess, and give morale bonuses. I'm not getting them.
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Quick Reminder:
This character is for PFS. It will only ever reach level 11, Vivisectionists are banned, and I cannot rely on consistently having the same party members.
EDIT: I'm reconsidering Ninja vs. Slayer. I remembered that many things are immune to precision damage, and considering how little I can scale non-precision damage with a Dex build without Weapon Training or fighter levels, the extra 2d6 SA damage I'd get are seeming less and less important. Besides, skulking around watching my opponents (Studied Target) before I close in for the kill has a certain appeal. I'll be looking through the Slayer Archetypes to see if anything catches my eye more than the base class.