Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Midlothian
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This post is a conglomeration of various issues that I've seen on the boards that I want to reiterate and issues that I see with the OP as it is currently.
The biggest problem that has been itching at me is the lack of foresight at scalability and longevity of the guild. I do understand that this is season beta, but I feel like nothing has been done to look at the future of the OP.
Warning - Walls of text
When I look back at PFSRPG there are many elements that exist that I think have not been been considered but should have been. The one that jumps out at me the most is that there is a feeling that has been portrayed (intentionally or not) that the scenarios need to be played in order (i.e. 1-A before 1-B, 1-F before 2-A, etc.).
When I look at organized play, I think the main goal is/should be - how do we get this random group of people (usually at a con or local gaming store, who may or may not know each other, and may or may not have experience with the game, with possibly various numbers of episodes/scenarios completed in the OP) together so that they can play a game together. This cannot be achieved if there are strict forced prerequisites such as "Player A is up to scenario #12, but Player B is up to scenario #14" scenario naming conventions aside. This is why PFSRPG has a tier system so that all players between levels 1 and 2 can play in one table and levels 3 and 4 can play in another.
In PFSRPG, once your character becomes too strong, he is forced into a higher tier. Instead in PFSACG, there is a "replay" system that can be infinitely gamed to continuously replay a character until the character achieves near perfection before moving on to the next tier.
I have also seen in some posts people talking about players who only want to play "key scenarios" or want to make sure they hold back until the "key scenarios" are under their belt. Obviously, these are the ones that reward feats. Even PFSRPG has some "favored scenarios" that reward higher amounts of gold for lower difficulty/risk, but you don't want that level of cherry-picking either. This can also make some scenarios deemed inefficient or unworthy to play.
Another issue to consider is - what happens with future seasons? Will players with a S&S character be able to play in the WoTR season? If yes, the issue is that once season 1 arrives, there will be, in theory, twice as many 1-x (and 2-x etc.) scenarios. Does this mean that players will try to play through both sets of 1-x scenarios before moving on to the 2-x? This also provides opportunity for twice as many feats to be earned. Also a strain will be put on the GM/orgainizers to have available every set. If characters cannot cross seasons, then there is less of an issue, however this could limit Paizo's ability to sell S&S (and other sets) in the future after that AP is no longer the current one. I think I would prefer to see the cross seasons be allowed.
- Feeling that scenarios must be played in order.
- Ability to overplay your tier.
- Ability to cherry pick scenarios.
- Multiple seasons could impact the flow of a character's life.
There needs to be a mechanic to force characters out of a tier after they become too experienced. A system similar to PFSRPG's Fame/Prestige system could be used:
- A character gets two Fame/Prestige per successful scenario completed.
- When a character reaches 10 Fame they earn a level. A character's level is equal to the tier they should be in. The character may play in a scenario one higher or one lower than his/her actual level.
- Scenarios have no special rewards other than the standard upgrade.
- Rewards that may be bought with Prestige (Numbers may need to be balanced):
-- 2 PP - May switch a card of your choice (up to your character's level) from your character's deck. Limit once per scenario.
-- 5 PP - Card Feat
-- 5 PP - Power Feat
-- 5 PP - Skill Feat
-- 10 PP - Raise Dead - Dead character does not die, but loses a feat of the character's choice permanently
-- 15 PP - Character gains their role card
-- 20 PP - Resurrection - See Raise Dead without the penalty
This solution bridges the future seasons, prevents overplaying a tier, and prevents cherry picking for rewards. It also allows for a little more personalization of the character instead of being told what type of feats you earn. Which might be a good thing or a bad thing, I'm not sure yet.
Feel free to use any, all, or none of this solution if you wish.
I hope this didn't come off as me being upset. I think the game is great and just want to help see that the OP goes in a good direction.
I think that card level is important to consider. Mike has said that if you are playing a deck N scenario then you can't use cards of higher levels.
Mike has said that if you are playing a deck N scenario then you can't use cards of higher levels.
Do you have a reference for this? Concerning replays, the Guide to Card Guild Organized Play says you can replay any scenario within 1 of the level of the highest card in your deck, so you could replay a deck 3 scenario with deck 4 cards. It seems a natural extrapolation to apply the same logic to first-time plays.
Mike has said that if you are playing a deck N scenario then you can't use cards of higher levels.Do you have a reference for this?
I believe mlvanbie is referring to this post.
Organized Play does indeed have a specific rule about what scenarios you can play.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Midlothian
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Thanks mIvanbie, I'm surpised I havn't seen the post that you linked to, but I think it still helps to spell out some of the issues and link them to the given solutions and impacts.
Sometimes people can connect dots, but I find it's better not to play to "sometimes" in explainations. There have been times where people have connected dots for me in explainations (in and out of the forums) and I smack my forehead and think, "why didn't I think of that?" And if it happens to me, then I'm sure that it happens to others.
@Hawkmoon - I do know about the rule about what scenarios you can play, but my point was that it can be abused. A player can sit in deck 2 for 20 sessions (in theory). They wouldn't get the scenario reward for playing the scenarios the second time, third time, etc., but they still get the deck upgrade. They could then upgrade until their deck was perfect before moving to deck 3. I was trying to point the issue out and make a suggestion to close that loophole.
Chief Technical Officer
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Mike has said that if you are playing a deck N scenario then you can't use cards of higher levels.Do you have a reference for this?I believe mlvanbie is referring to this post.
Organized Play does indeed have a specific rule about what scenarios you can play.
To be clear, Mike's suggestion is not legal in PFSACG play.
@Hawkmoon - I do know about the rule about what scenarios you can play, but my point was that it can be abused. A player can sit in deck 2 for 20 sessions (in theory). They wouldn't get the scenario reward for playing the scenarios the second time, third time, etc., but they still get the deck upgrade. They could then upgrade until their deck was perfect before moving to deck 3. I was trying to point the issue out and make a suggestion to close that loophole.
Yeah. Sorry. I realized you knew that. When I said "Organized Play does indeed have a specific rule about what scenarios you can play" I was trying to both recognized that you already knew that and that it wasn't Mike's suggestion. But since it seems you and Vic both didn't find it exactly clear, I guess that didn't come across quite as well as I intended.
As to the loophole you mention, yes that can be done. But does it matter? If that is what someone else wants to do, it doesn't impact me. Yes, they could optimize their deck to be the exact set of cards they wanted. Given the small amount of cards they can choose from, that doesn't seem like it would be that much more optimal than my deck. But even if it was, if I sat down at a table with a guy who had a "perfect" deck, it wouldn't harm me. We'd probably have a better chance of winning (though I doubt that guy alone could guarantee our victory). And, when we chose cards for deck upgrades I'd probably have more possible good choices than him, who is likely to be looking for that one or two remaining perfect cards.
So long as that guy isn't the organizer and refusing to play the next adventure until he has his deck perfected, I don't see it really bothering me. But I haven't actually played with a person trying to do that, so I can't say that from experience, just theoretically. It is possible that in practice it would bother me.
Ah ok. Well I wouldn't want anyone to think that either, so thanks for chiming in.
Mike doesn't think his suggestion is legal for OP!
I was not actually referring to that particular post from Mike. (I did suggest using that in an online shared playthrough, but the other people involved preferred to swap out cards.)
The post to which I was referring. Clearly not an official rule, but relevant to the discussion.
Balkar, it is no surprise that you didn't see my post since it was from October, in the middle of a thread and nobody responded to it. I am just happy to see that someone is thinking along similar lines. I feel that once we are out of Season 0 it would be a more vibrant ecosystem if you could switch between different adventures in a fair way. Some people may disagree because they feel that the narrative arc of each season is king. I think that a world can have many things going on in it and 'real characters' may move between different storylines just as easily as they might be stuck in one and never see outside of it.
I also like the idea of more flexible character development. There aren't a lot of options in a class deck for some characters. Letting them focus on skills, powers or upgrades would give more variety to how the characters grow and express themselves.