Question about Preparing the Game Box for PFSACG


Pathfinder Adventure Card Society

Silver Crusade 3/5

So this conversation is being triggered after a long discussion this weekend with a player who felt that the players will have a very difficult time encountering a card higher than a B for several months, so I'm asking this question to the boards.

For those of you who typically run a group of 4 or less through an adventure, do you hear any complaints about having the character add on deck included in your box? How have you handled those discussions?

On that same note, I'm going to put put together a spreadsheet showing the distribution of cards per boon type, just so I can show my player that the C deck doesn't change the percentages too much. I enjoy spreadsheets/statistics, so it got me genuinely curious as well. I can share it if people like once I complete it.

Grand Lodge

If you are consistently running a single group of 4 or less through scenarios on a weekly basis, I could see pulling the Add-On deck. However, since we are talking about PFSACG and there is always the potential for more players, I prefer a consistent setup. Which means adding the Add-On deck to the box.

I run 2-3 sessions a week from the same box. The thought of pulling the Add-On cards is not one that I'd entertain. It is bad enough that they're not doing the same scenario each week. But overall, I have not heard anyone complain during RotR, S&S or PFSACG about having the Add-On deck cards in with the base set.

btw, I have not seen that it affects things. We are still seeing quite a few Deck 1 cards popping up for boons and banes.

Silver Crusade 3/5

I know it seems like a silly argument. I think the situation was we played Lone Shark, which already has an EXTREMELY low loot ratio compared to the first adventure (Shark Island is 60% banes), and not a single 1 cards was pulled, so that one player was a little on the frustrated side.

On that note, here's the impact that the Character add on deck makes in adventure 1. For proper statistical quoting, this is for the very first pull out of each deck type. This does not take into account the 2nd or nth card pull, but with a spreadsheet, you can easily modify that information to find the proper statistics.

Weapon: 1.57%
Spell: 4.74%
Armor: 2.48%
Item: 4.49%
Ally: 7.20%
Blessing: 1.10%

Theryon, I fully agree with you, I'd rather keep a consistent box setup ready for whatever situation may arise. I have had to run a 5 person table once so far, so I'd rather keep the Character add on deck at the ready.


Statistically, it will effect things. In adventure 1 you'll have about a 12% chance of encountering an adventure 1 boon with B & C in the mix vs a 16% chance with just B in the mix.

But that isn't a very big statistically difference in my opinion. You are talking 4 more cards out of 100. Plus there are some good cards in the C deck which would be useful during the scenario. So don't discount that.

Silver Crusade 3/5

That's basically what I was trying to get across as well, but he was more worried about upgrading his class deck and how that was going to span out as more and more adventures are released.


Also, remember that the rules for removing Basic and Elite cards are much more generous than in Organized Play than they are in regular play. And then look at how many of the B & C cards are Basic or Elite. Eventually, those will all be removed in batch.

Grand Lodge

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Also, remember that the rules for removing Basic and Elite cards are much more generous than in Organized Play than they are in regular play. And then look at how many of the B & C cards are Basic or Elite. Eventually, those will all be removed in batch.

That is very true. I'm interested how that will affect things at that point ... both with boons and banes.

Grand Lodge

Statistics are great at tracking potentials but sometimes luck is just luck. Sometimes you pull crappy cards and sometimes the dice like to roll 1s. And while I can understand your player wanting a better chance at drawing Deck 1 cards rather than B, C or P cards, statistics sometimes doesn't matter. I'd much rather have a consistent set of cards for PFSACG. And for home play, then tweak it.

This falls closely with the people that want to mix Class Deck cards into the base set. Or a second base set into the first. It changes the ratio. And while there is a difference between having the Add-On deck and not having it, I don't think it is significant enough to warrant the pulling of the deck.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Hawkmoon: I know that things are a lot more generous, and I'll eventually work that into my percentages. I was mostly just focusing on adventure deck 1 at the moment since that's where we are at.

The original argument was that "you won't ever see a card higher than a 1 until 3 months from now when you remove the basics and elite since you have the Class Add On Deck in there" and to see what the actual percentages are.

Theryon: I couldn't agree more. It was actually funny. I took 10 weapons from the deck, had 7 B's, 2 C's and 1 deck one card. I then drew two more weapons and got 1 b and 1 deck one card. It's always going to be luck, especially when the characters then have to acquire the boon before they can even choose it.

I don't want to mess with a ratios since I know they are there for a reason and I'm sure Mike and Tanis have already worked up the percentages they want to see for each card type.

And since I just did the math on it, here's the numbers based on the full boon count what I'm using.

B = 244
C = 70
1 = 47

% of finding a 1 WITH the C-Deck = 13.02%
% of finding a 1 WITHOUT the C-Deck = 16.15%
Difference: 3.12%


My plan is to run four player S&S with the Character Add-On and just not put their decks back into the box when running the OP scenarios. That will suck out enough of the B/C cards to more or less work out.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

mlvanbie wrote:
My plan is to run four player S&S with the Character Add-On and just not put their decks back into the box when running the OP scenarios. That will suck out enough of the B/C cards to more or less work out.

How many do you plan on having for OP? and depending on which OP classes get used vs. your S&S group this might cause some problems....

Silver Crusade 3/5

Tim Felts wrote:
mlvanbie wrote:
My plan is to run four player S&S with the Character Add-On and just not put their decks back into the box when running the OP scenarios. That will suck out enough of the B/C cards to more or less work out.
How many do you plan on having for OP? and depending on which OP classes get used vs. your S&S group this might cause some problems....

My wife and I are working through the campaign mode of S&S with 4 characters and I'm going to agree with Tim. After 5 scenarios, we have a lot of 1's in our decks, so that would drastically reduce the amount of 1's that players could find.


If you do OP before S&S for a given class deck, then there will be lots of opportunity to grab things -- and then put them back when rebuilding a class deck. Works fine for deck 1, slightly off for deck 2 due to many 1s in use and then gets better.

You also don't need to find many of each upgrade per scenario since each character only gets one upgrade.

If you are putting your characters back in, you could randomly remove appropriate numbers of B/C boons cards from each type every session/time that you switch sets of characters. That way you get a fair chance at the C-deck-only boons like the Fox and various potions. Fair and relatively easy.

Grand Lodge

mlvanbie wrote:
My plan is to run four player S&S with the Character Add-On and just not put their decks back into the box when running the OP scenarios. That will suck out enough of the B/C cards to more or less work out.

Please tell me you're not going to be reporting the OP sessions. Your plan, which is fine for homebrew, is not legal for OP.

Grand Lodge

mlvanbie wrote:

If you do OP before S&S for a given class deck, then there will be lots of opportunity to grab things -- and then put them back when rebuilding a class deck. Works fine for deck 1, slightly off for deck 2 due to many 1s in use and then gets better.

You also don't need to find many of each upgrade per scenario since each character only gets one upgrade.

If you are putting your characters back in, you could randomly remove appropriate numbers of B/C boons cards from each type every session/time that you switch sets of characters. That way you get a fair chance at the C-deck-only boons like the Fox and various potions. Fair and relatively easy.

Again, what you are stating is fine to play if you're just trying homebrew variations of box setup. But if you are actually running OP sessions, there are two variations that are legal: Adding the Add-On deck (required for more than 4 players) or not adding the Add-On deck. After that, there are rules for removal of cards.

Sovereign Court

mlvanbie wrote:
My plan is to run four player S&S with the Character Add-On and just not put their decks back into the box when running the OP scenarios. That will suck out enough of the B/C cards to more or less work out.

As long as you are aren't reporting those OP scenarios you're fine. If you are reporting them, you can't have any custom rules like that, and you will need to put all those cards back in. Really, the only difference any game of OP should have from the others is whether the Character Add-On deck is in the box or not.


Andrew K wrote:
mlvanbie wrote:
My plan is to run four player S&S with the Character Add-On and just not put their decks back into the box when running the OP scenarios. That will suck out enough of the B/C cards to more or less work out.
As long as you are aren't reporting those OP scenarios you're fine. If you are reporting them, you can't have any custom rules like that, and you will need to put all those cards back in. Really, the only difference any game of OP should have from the others is whether the Character Add-On deck is in the box or not.

Or the promos that may or may not be included in the box.


Actually participating in organized play is unreasonable. 1.25 hours of driving in traffic to go to a store on a weekday that conflicts with my existing gaming or doing something I can do at home during my limited time at a convention -- these are the perks of having a reported character history. Apparently I would need to get approved to report my home games, spend an hour changing around cards every time, etc. to get these.

The advantages of a home OP game include an easy way to play different sessions concurrently. As many OP ones as you want; it would be even better if OP scenarios were written for the previous game box instead of the current one.


mlvanbie wrote:
It would be even better if OP scenarios were written for the previous game box instead of the current one.

Given the release schedule for OP scenarios, the 1 month delay to buy them and when WotR is supposed to come out, that will be true for a few months.

Grand Lodge

We're currently only at the second scenario this week. I can see this playing out into WotR cycle to finish.


What I actually meant was that it would be nice to have them for Rise of the Runelords. Clearly there is an advantage to promoting the current card set, but the scenarios are aimed at experienced players and may be too hard for a good first-player experience (new players seem to die a lot in the reports). I would rather see scenarios that are like the Lord of the Rings LCG nightmare decks (add-ons to existing adventures that increase the challenge). Doing regular scenarios with class decks at stores might be a better way to attract casual players.

Grand Lodge

I would agree with you.

And don't discount using characters from RotR. One of the seven last night used RotR Lem instead of CD Lem or S&S Lem. I need to print up character sheets for those as well (RotR and S&S characters that have class decks) but using the class deck lists.


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You know what would be super cool, is if there were specific "convention" level scenarios for OP that required the RotR box. I'm saying that as someone that has never been to a convention.

It looks like in PFS they have "convention-only" scenarios that they release a year later to the general public. It would be cool to see that with PACG and seeing RotR be part of it would be awesome.

Silver Crusade 3/5

That would be awesome! As someone who has a convention coming up in a month, I wonder if this idea could get implemented in time.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I played a class deck character through the first half of Runelords using the OP upgrade rules. I had the add-on deck in the box but no promos. Here's some stuff I noticed:

You will get a lot of B/C cards, especially during adventure 1. Deck upgrades during adventure 1 just aren't very "sexy." In many cases even the 1 cards are barely an improvement over your Basic starting stuff. If you look closely at the class deck cards there are usually only one or two 1 cards that are really nice, with the rest being "okay." Do not expect your class deck character to be as awesome after the first adventure as a normal character would be.

Improvements come slowly. Also once you get the deck 2 stuff available you'll start seeing more noticeable improvement. But even in adventure 3 expect to still be using basic cards in some cases, and not just Cure.

In a normal games you may get 3-5 upgrades in each early scenario, so you have a pretty solid deck by the end of the intro adventure. But by about deck 3 you may have entire scenarios where you change nothing. The OP upgrades spread that out into a more even pace, but it can seem frustrating at first until you start seeing real improvements, at least in my experience.


Once there are multiple OP APs or special convention scenarios then there is a problem with getting feats. Either doing something out of your character's AP will have to result in no feats (but possibly upgrades) or you need to introduce some sort of level system (see below).

Convention scenarios could be made more epic, say three regular scenarios long. Either they could have a combined 75-card blessings deck or failing a scenario might cause you to miss out on useful loot (like Alden Foxglove as an ally before doing the scenario with haunts).

How might levels work?

Version 1:

level = 5 * card feats + 4 * power feats + 2 * skill feats
Level must be between (eg) 13 and 17 for a particular adventure.
Hitting a particular level will reward you with a role card (too lazy to work out what that would be).

Version 2:

Scenarios reward XP. You can spend XP to get feats, increase the maximum level of cards allowed in your deck, buy a particular card as an upgrade, etc. For some characters I would hoard XP to get the role card early, others I would put XP into stats and cards.

So Version 2 sounds like a fun variant in general, but the point was to navigate a world where there are many OP APs and special events. You would then find sessions at conventions that were for your level and previously not won by your character.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

One other thing I note about leaving out the C cards. Leaving out the character add-on slightly increases you chances of getting better boons, but similarly increases your chances of getting tougher banes.

Silver Crusade 3/5

ryric wrote:
One other thing I note about leaving out the C cards. Leaving out the character add-on slightly increases you chances of getting better boons, but similarly increases your chances of getting tougher banes.

Ryric, you make me want to make another spreadsheet about the banes and average difficulty and how much it changes things. That sounds like more of a weekend project in all reality though.

Grand Lodge

Joshua North wrote:
ryric wrote:
One other thing I note about leaving out the C cards. Leaving out the character add-on slightly increases you chances of getting better boons, but similarly increases your chances of getting tougher banes.
Ryric, you make me want to make another spreadsheet about the banes and average difficulty and how much it changes things. That sounds like more of a weekend project in all reality though.

Or instead of working on a spreadsheet, you could play it with 4 or less players without the Add-On deck and see what you think.

Just sayin ...

Silver Crusade 3/5

Theryon Stormrune wrote:
Joshua North wrote:
ryric wrote:
One other thing I note about leaving out the C cards. Leaving out the character add-on slightly increases you chances of getting better boons, but similarly increases your chances of getting tougher banes.
Ryric, you make me want to make another spreadsheet about the banes and average difficulty and how much it changes things. That sounds like more of a weekend project in all reality though.

Or instead of working on a spreadsheet, you could play it with 4 or less players without the Add-On deck and see what you think.

Just sayin ...

Yeah... Fair enough... I'm a bit of an excel junkie, so I love putting things like this together and crunching numbers. Just one of my personality quirks I guess.

Grand Lodge

I'm all for people (and their quirks) crunching numbers. But when it comes to numbers versus actual playtesting, there really is only one choice in the long run. It isn't until you sit down and try it will you see if it actually works or potentially works.

And it's a game you love to play ...

Sovereign Court

I will always take real world application over the numbers.

Never tell me the odds.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm definitely a numbers cruncher. That said, many times there are things you don't realize are important until you're sitting there with a couple of cards in your hand, and discovering that they synergize really well.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

They tell you different things. Number crunching can't tell you how your individual game or die roll will truly go, but it can tell you what an amalgam of 10,000 games will look like pretty darn well. On average a 1 in a million thing happens to 7000 people in the world every day. Also on average about 200 people a year die due to the collapse of human civilization from a catastrophic asteroid impact. Statistics is a funny beast.

Still, it's nice to be able to tell a player "You have a better than 50% chance to make that roll without a blessing," or the like when deciding strategy. It doesn't always follow the odds but it can help.

Silver Crusade 3/5

ryric wrote:

They tell you different things. Number crunching can't tell you how your individual game or die roll will truly go, but it can tell you what an amalgam of 10,000 games will look like pretty darn well. On average a 1 in a million thing happens to 7000 people in the world every day. Also on average about 200 people a year die due to the collapse of human civilization from a catastrophic asteroid impact. Statistics is a funny beast.

Still, it's nice to be able to tell a player "You have a better than 50% chance to make that roll without a blessing," or the like when deciding strategy. It doesn't always follow the odds but it can help.

Fully agree with you there. That's the point I was trying to make with the comparison of leaving the class deck in or taking it out. There may only be a 3 percent difference, but sometimes your luck at drawing and acquiring cards deem that you're only going to get B cards during a scenario. Next time, it may be nothing but 1 cards. It's like gamer superstitions. You never say "I only need to roll X" because it seems like you always roll X-1, no matter how against the odds it is. That's what makes games like this game great!

Grand Lodge

Let's talk real world for a moment ...

We're talking PFSACG game box setup. You assume that you'll only have 3 showing up so you decide to remove the Add-On deck cards. Better percentage chance for your players. Seven minutes before you are going to start, another player shows up. You're at four and you're still good. One minute before play and another player shows up ... you're screwed.

Just saying that for organized play at a store or public venue, it is better to add the cards in case you have more than 4 players. If you are playing in private (but still organized play), and you want to increase the percentage chance to pull certain cards, remove the Add-On deck.

I thought last night we were going to have four players but the fourth was late. All of the sudden, a fourth shows up (someone from the Tuesday night session). Unexpected but welcome. Then as we start the first round, the other guy shows up so we adjust things and start to play. In real world sessions, it's better to simply add in the deck and not worry about it than chance getting messed up because you have to make major adjustments. For private sessions, all up to you.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Fully agreed Theryon and that's why I'm electing to keep the Add-On Deck in my game box for OP and even home games. I like the addition of the cards and for OP, I'd rather be ready for no matter the circumstances. The original reason why I brought this up has been resolved, so it's all good.

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