Essential Conceits of Pathfinder / D&D / Roleplaying

[Tacticslion]

Oh, I agree. I was just pointing out the existence of such things, not commenting on anything else relevant to the great conceit.

[Luthorne]

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

@Luthorne

Yeah, but there's dragons, and then there's Dragons. Chromatic and metallic - all the rest are pale imitations, or just vaguely scaly things. Dragon-slayers probably aren't really going for river drakes.

But I take your point in general - I knew there was "stuff" at the lower levels but it's not really very inspiring, or really that much. And a lot of it is specific demon-bloat for WotR. I actually think goblins and orcs are probably more fun, and a lot more versatile. But we've probably beaten this one to death now.

Yeah. I just wanted to point out that it could potentially be done, and honestly, I think a river drake or kyrana would be a good enemy for a group of level 1s...but, well, people have different opinions there. I've got a friend who really dislikes true dragons in D&D because he liked mythology a lot, and he views the idea of a dragon being some sort of spellcaster as being pretty dumb, much preferring drakes, linnorms, wyverns, and other such. And, of course, I also have a friend who doesn't view even non-D&D dragons as being proper dragons unless they're huge, scaly, deadly spellcasters. Me, I can go either way when it comes to dragons...I've certainly seen representations all over the charts in regards to the power and intelligence and deadliness of dragons...from godlike to intelligent (for an animal).

Ultimately, I think it's all in the presentation as for how fun or inspiring it is...a good DM portraying things cleverly does a lot to spice up anything, be it a drake, a quasit, or an orc. Personally, I don't like goblins and orcs much...at least not most representations. Ultimately, it tends to boil down to them being barbaric. Cruel, rapacious pillagers. But humans can fill that role just about as well...certainly, they wouldn't be quite as strong as an orc, or quite as stealthy as a goblin, but they can certainly be just as cruel or destructive for the most part. I don't really find it that compelling, and prefer more blatantly supernatural or alien foes. But. That's me. You obviously find them quite enjoyable and compelling, and that's fine.

I'm certainly not disagreeing that you have to start with the small potatoes and work your way up the food chain, of course.

[Rynjin]

thejeff wrote:

Despite the amusing sidebar about what dragons and demons exist at low levels, I suspect the actual point wasn't so much "orcs and goblins" specifically and "dragons and demons" specifically", but more that was more a poetic way of saying you have to start out fighting weak things and work your way up to fighting powerful things. The existence of high level orcs and wyrmling dragons doesn't really change the basic point.

And despite my earlier quibble about not actually having to do that, since you don't really have to start at 1st level and play to high levels, I do agree that's at least a basic conceit of the game. Of all the versions of D&D and similar games, but not of RPGs in general. The "zero to hero to demigod" thing is not nearly so prevalent outside D&D.

However, he said it's "ridiculous" for taht reason, which I don't really buy.

Level characters are inexperienced. They LITERALLY lack experience. They're just starting their career.

The ridicuous part isn't that they go from "zero to hero" at all (everyone starts somewhere, right?) it's that they can amass the experience to go from zero, then to hero, then "That guy who punched Cthulhu in the face and made him cry. TWICE." in a matter of months.

[Irontruth]

Rynjin wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Despite the amusing sidebar about what dragons and demons exist at low levels, I suspect the actual point wasn't so much "orcs and goblins" specifically and "dragons and demons" specifically", but more that was more a poetic way of saying you have to start out fighting weak things and work your way up to fighting powerful things. The existence of high level orcs and wyrmling dragons doesn't really change the basic point.

And despite my earlier quibble about not actually having to do that, since you don't really have to start at 1st level and play to high levels, I do agree that's at least a basic conceit of the game. Of all the versions of D&D and similar games, but not of RPGs in general. The "zero to hero to demigod" thing is not nearly so prevalent outside D&D.

However, he said it's "ridiculous" for taht reason, which I don't really buy.

Level characters are inexperienced. They LITERALLY lack experience. They're just starting their career.

The ridicuous part isn't that they go from "zero to hero" at all (everyone starts somewhere, right?) it's that they can amass the experience to go from zero, then to hero, then "That guy who punched Cthulhu in the face and made him cry. TWICE." in a matter of months.

That's a pacing thing that's on the GM.

[snickersimba]

I simply have never given my players any form of magical loot, no potions of CLW, no wands of CLW, not even a +1 arrow or sling bullet.

I make them craft it all themselves.

for 85% of the price listed

[Tacticslion]

:(

[GreyWolfLord]

snickersimba wrote:

I simply have never given my players any form of magical loot, no potions of CLW, no wands of CLW, not even a +1 arrow or sling bullet.

I make them craft it all themselves.

for 85% of the price listed

............

Sucks to be certain classes....

[Kalindlara]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Guys, let's scale back on personal attacks here. I've removed some posts where posters are directly attacking other posters or attacking them by proxy by assigning aspersions to all who hold the poster's point of view, without naming a poster directly (and responses to those posts). Please try to exercise restraint and consider other people's points of view. Remember that the other posters have different experiences than you do and like to play the game differently, and even if that wouldn't be fun to you, it doesn't mean they are decreasing the game for their own group, since maybe it's fun for their whole group.

Wait. The venom I just read through was what remained AFTER moderation?! What were they doing before you got here?