So, I was considering the issues the fighter class faces. There are a lot of them, and some require quite complex solutions (like versatility in combat) but there are two in specific I want to deal with with this houserule: The fact that between level 7 and 19 there are no interesting class features, and the fact that fighters are prone to hog party resources in form of healing and status removal as to not be useless and/or try to kill the party when they face an Aboleth. So, here's my houserule, that replaces Bravery. Please evaluate and critique honestly :P
I'm looking for critique on both the ability itself, and on the wording - English isn't my main language, so I often have to do workarounds to make my points understood.
Defensive Training [Ex]
Starting at 2nd level, the fighter gains the ability to very effectively parry and protect herself from attacks, including magical or mental ones. She gains a Stamina Pool that is equal to twice her level. Whenever she would take damage, she may spend any number of points from this pool to reduce the damage by that amount. Whenever she fails a save against a spell, she may spend a number of points equal to twice the spell's level to reroll the save; this may be done any number of times against a single spell.
By spending a full-round action, she can catch her breath and refill her stamina pool fully.
Any archetype that replaces bravery, may choose not to replace Defensive Training (anything that normally is a compulsory replacement of Bravery becomes a voluntary replacement of Defensive Training).
At 6th level, the stamina pool is equal to
(Level + Wisdom Bonus) x 2
In addition, if her stamina pool is completely full, she may spend 10 stamina points to take an extra move action as an immediate action.
At 10th level, once per day the fighter may catch her breath as a swift action. In addition, three times per day she may spend 20 stamina points to lower or remove the effect of certain temporary conditions, as follows. This may not remove any status effect that would last for a full day or more. This is not an action and may be used even if the fighter is unconscious, dominated or otherwise mentally compromised, though the benefits may be limited.
Cowering or panicked to frightened to shaken to nothing.
Exhausted to fatigued to nothing.
Nauseated to sickened to nothing.
Stunned to dazed to staggered to nothing.
At 14th level, the stamina pool increases to
(Level + Wisdom Bonus) x 2.5
In addition, three times per day she may spend 30 stamina points to remove any single one status effect except dead. This is not an action and may be used even if the fighter is unconscious, dominated or otherwise mentally compromised.
At 18th level, whenever she takes damage she may regain a number of stamina points equal to one-third the damage dealt (minimum 0). In addition, she may spend 40 stamina points to take her turn immediately. Treat this as a readied action, moving her initiative to just before the currently acting creature. She may only take a move or a standard action on this turn.
The idea here is to:
1. Extend the fighter's life while lessening the reliance on healers.
2. Allow the fighter to effectively protect herself from spells and similar attacks, and making Iron Will less of a must-have (it's still useful, as rerolls are more effective with a high save).
3. Make the fighter have something to look forward to at higher levels that isn't just a numerical bonus.
So, what do you think? Would like some theoretical feedback before I put it in action and playtest in an actual game.
I like the sound of the stamina pool thematically, though being able to refill it indefinitely seems too strong? I'm not great with numbers, so I can't say whether it's too weak/strong compared to other class abilities, but I think you're on to a neat idea here.
Change the name. Defensive Training doesn't match what it does. Call it Stamina or something.
Typical pool sizes are:
ability score mod (gunslinger)
1/2 level + ability mod (monk)
level + ability mod (magus)
twice level + ability mod (barbarian)
You should choose one of those and stick with it. Drop the element that multiplies the pool size by a new number depending on the fighter level. I assume you have included the multipliers to allow the fighter to overcome more serious conditions and spells. Instead, make the pool smaller and then make what a point does more potent as levels are gained.
1 point becomes more potent when the effects scale with level. For example, spending 1 point to reduce damage by an amount equal to level becomes better as he gains levels, and he can do it more times per day.
Gaining a move action or taking a turn immediately is cool, but it evokes the concepts of neither defense not stamina.
"Status effect" is not a game term. Use "condition".
There are several things you're trying to do here, which I brought up in my own Fighter rewrite:
1) Trying to give the fighter a better save option. In your case, a reroll.
2) reduce the damage the fighter takes.
3) give the fighter a recovery option vs certain attacks/conditions.
4) Generate an extra attack at high levels (capstone ability, and kind of cool, really).
I named my ability Resolve, because that summoned up the combination of traits I wanted to have happen, conveying discipline, vigor, mental fortitude, bravery, and the rest.
DR should just be part of armor training.
The recovery option is way behind the curve of the paladin, and heals less conditions. Since it is the fighter only, it should actually be stronger then the paladin.
The fighter has no way to heal himself. He should at least have a limited ability to do so.
I suggest a renaming and giving the fighter the ability to overcome magical conditions inflicted on him. The fighter is the MOST NON-MAGICAL class in the game. Give him some anti-magic to reflect it. It absolutely sucks that the barbarian is the one who gets the cool anti-magic stuff, when Rage is expressly magical/supernatural at higher levels.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for the response everyone!
I like the sound of the stamina pool thematically, though being able to refill it indefinitely seems too strong? I'm not great with numbers, so I can't say whether it's too weak/strong compared to other class abilities, but I think you're on to a neat idea here.
Honestly, since the only thing it can indefinitely is prevent damage and lessen the odds of falling victim to certain effects I don't think it's too strong.
First, I'm personally opposed to the idea that Defensive Training can basically ignore the archetype rules by being able to ignore bravery replacement; this is a step toward piecemeal selection of archetypes abilities.
The thought here is that otherwise, archetypes would lose a lot of power compared to the vanilla fighter; as Defensive Training is very much a powerup from Bravery, and replacing it with things like +1-5 against disarm attempts is very very weak.
The majority of published fighter archetypes replace the +1-5 bonus on saves against fear with another minor, circumstantial power, like +1-5 against disarm attempts or +1-5 to saves against compulsion.
As there seems to be no example of the replacements for bravery being major powerups there should be no real balance issue with that.
Second, the progression of the formula for stamina pool is strange. That the formula evolves is unusual, but I don't really care. However, it evolves differently between level 6 and 14, which create a really uneven curve,
Yeah, I know it's strange; I just don't know any better alternative. Any suggestions are welcome. The issue is that HP scales exponentially, but not according to any specific curve.
Assuming a character that starts out at 12 wis and has increased it to 14@8th level and 16@12th level and 18@16th level, which seems reasonable, we end up with a curve that's something like this:
2: 4
3: 6
4: 8
5: 10
6: 14
7: 18
8: 20
9: 22
10: 24
11: 26
12: 30
13: 32
14: 42
15: 45
16: 50
17: 52
18: 55
19: 57
20: 60
I agree it's a bit strange, but I don't know any better alternative at this point.
A possible alternative progression could be : at 1st, levelx2; at 5th add Wis modifier; at 10th, add Con modifier; at 15th, add Wis again; at 20th, add Con again. That way you finish with levelx2 + Wisx2 + Conx2 = 40-60.
I don't want it to be too reliant on ability scores; the Fighter already struggles with being MAD and needing quite specific cookie cutter ability scores, so I want it to stand mostly on it's own.
Third, still on the stamina pool. I think that it could be less granular. I'm not sure we really need a 50+ pool to manage stamina, especially when most abilities has a 10-based cost. We could very well divide the pool size and the cost by ten. That way, be expending 1 point, we ignore 10 points of damage for 1 attack, or reroll against any spell with a level between 0 and 5.
That's a very good idea. And actually, since the main reason to have an exponential curve is damage, they could be combined; by having a a linear pool progression and letting the damage prevented also increase by level.
Here are my major issues. A few additional notes :
- It feels a bit weird that Wisdom is used for a stamina pool, when semantically stamina is more associated with Constitution.
My thought is that willpower is key to pushing past one's normal limits.
At this point though, I feel as it perhaps shouldn't be tied to any ability score at all.- Defensive training protect only against spells, not spell-like abilities. So the Fighter still need helps against an Aboleth.
I should probably write it out clearer; our group tends to prioritize this line from the core rulebook:
Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Paizo has been all over the place in their FAQs etc about SLA's, so we've in-group determined that we simply apply that line everywhere unless there's an explicit exception in the rules.
But yeah, should probably write it in a cleaner way.
- I'm not sure that the (nearly-) infinite reroll option is good for the game fluidity. It allows to potentially roll 4 or 5 consecutive rolls "only" to resist to a spell.
I'm okay with that, since you can only do that with spells far lower than your level, and given that casters tend to do everything they can to make their spells unsaveable. Casters are given tools to be immune to spells, and honestly I think fighters should be the ultimate experts at protecting them from spells, as they are mundane people who have succeeded in a world of magic. Given the above pool example, at 10th level she'll tend to meet 4th to 6th level spells, costing between 1/3 and 1/2 of her whole pool to reroll against. At 8th level, it's 8th and 9th level spells costing about 1/3 of her whole pool to reroll against.
It does give a larger amount of protection to people throwing out things like quickened dazing persistant fireball+empowered dazing persistant fireball, as well as when the opposition is employing dozens of low-level mages casting Grease and stuff like that, but I'm fine with that. It's a feature, not a bug. :P
Change the name. Defensive Training doesn't match what it does. Call it Stamina or something.
I guess the point was that defensive training was what it actually _was_, stamina was just the limitation of how long one has the energy to keep those defenses up.
But with the condition recovery abilities of it, you're right that it matches quite badly now. Will have to come up with a new name.
You should choose one of those and stick with it. Drop the element that multiplies the pool size by a new number depending on the fighter level. I assume you have included the multipliers to allow the fighter to overcome more serious conditions and spells. Instead, make the pool smaller and then make what a point does more potent as levels are gained.
This is a good idea, thanks.
DR should just be part of armor training.
I don't like DR as much as virtual "temporary hit points", because DR makes those with lots of weak attacks weaker while not hurting those with a few strong attacks as much. In addition, it doesn't protect against spells or elemental damage.
The recovery option is way behind the curve of the paladin, and heals less conditions.
Does it? At 10th level the paladin only have three different mercies, and using them is a swift action so only once per round. The only ones they can choose that a fighter can't is disease, curse and poison. So to me it seems safe to say that any given fighter will be able to heal many more different conditions than any given paladin (of similar level).
Though yeah, she can use it more times. At first I didn't put a limit, but realized that would mean it could be used literally unlimited times per day which felt iffy. But, with a new pool mechanic it could perhaps be limited in another way. Will have to mull over this.The fighter has no way to heal himself. He should at least have a limited ability to do so.
That's part of what this ability for gameplay purposes does, while keeping away from having either extraordinary healing abilities (which I don't think any class or non-giant humanoid/animal/vermin in the game has) and also keeping away from giving the fighter [Su] or [Sp] abilities. I know a lot of people (including two in my group) feel kinda iffy about both of those things, hence the idea of a self-replenishing pool that can be spent to prevent damage, rather than replenish it.
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What about something like this instead then?
Relentless [Ex]
Starting at 2nd level, the fighter has learnt to protect herself from attacks both mundande and magical, through parries, blocks, dodges and general badassery. She gains a Stamina Pool equal to half her level plus her wisdom bonus (if any). Whenever she would take damage, she may spend any number of points; for each point spent she may ignore a number of damage equal to her level. Treat this damage as if it hadn't been dealt in the first place for the purpose of effects that rely on the damage (for example, if she reduces the damage of a spider's bite to 0 with this ability, she does not suffer ther spider's injury poison). Whenever she fails a save against a spell or spell-like ability, she may spend a number of points equal to half the spell's level to reroll the save; this may be done any number of times against a single effect.
By spending a full-round action, she can catch her breath and refill her stamina pool fully.
Any archetype that replaces bravery, does not replace Relentless; Relentless isn't lost, and the ability that would be gained instead of Bravery is not gained.
At 6th level, if her stamina pool is completely full, the fighter may spend 2 stamina points to take an extra move action as an immediate action.
At 10th level, once per day the fighter may catch her breath as a swift action. In addition, she may spend 2 stamina points to lessen or remove a temporary condition. This may not remove any condition that would last for a full day or more. This is not an action and may be used even if the fighter is unconscious, dominated or otherwise mentally compromised, though the benefits may be limited.
Cowering or panicked to frightened to shaken to nothing.
Exhausted to fatigued to nothing.
Nauseated to sickened to nothing.
Stunned to dazed to staggered to nothing.
Any given day she may not spend more points on this ability than her level.
At 14th level, three times per day she may spend 4 stamina points to remove any single one status effect except dead. This is not an action and may be used even if the fighter is unconscious, dominated or otherwise mentally compromised.
At 18th level, whenever she takes at least 20 damage from a single attack she may regain one stamina point. In addition, she may spend 8 stamina points to take her turn immediately. Treat this as a readied action, moving her initiative to just before the currently acting creature. She may only take a move or a standard action on this turn.
For freedom from stats, I suggest simply going 2xFort Save + Level. This keeps you at about the same advancement rate without having to adjust it mid level. It also gives the fighter the option to boost his stamina with Save Boosters and Great Fortitude, as well as benefiting from a high con.
Temporary hit points are indeed a back door to DR. IT can be very strong at higher levels if you can restrict the enemy to single attacks, however.
I'd probably change the reroll option to 'spend a point to use your Fort save for your Reflex or Will save.' That'll start getting him into good save territory.
And all the temp hp in the world are nice, but it doesn't help the fighter recover from a battle. The paladin will be up and fine the next day, and the barbarian can rage cycle with magic items to heal or use raging vitality. I suggest something like: after every combat where you have taken lethal damage, you can spend a point to convert an amount of damage to non-lethal (which will be healed at level/hour). It's not an instant heal, but it means the next morning he's well on his way back to normal. And if he gets magically healed, he heals for basically twice the amount (normal + non-lethal in equal amounts).
===Aelryinth
I will note that if you have an archetype that replaces Bravery, and Bravery is a subset of Stamina/Willpower/Resolve/Relentless, then you actually have to make no changes.
Everything else stays the same, but you swap the fear benefit for whatever and carry on. your additional abilities stay the same.
==Aelryinth
Out of all the problems with the fighter, durability never struck me as one (except for having only one good save). However, you raise some good points. Out of all the proposals to making fighters more durable, this one seems the most fun and interesting because it actually involves gameplay.
However, the mechanics seem really sloppy and not well done. I haven't made a Machination diagram of this yet, but the stamina economy looks completely shot and not well thought out.
Overall, I like it. In general I dislike that you've combined a point system with x/day (it feels a bit awkward - I'd prefer one or the other), but your ideas are on the right track. Interesting and useful without being too oppressive.
I'm curious, however, about the option for an extra move action. Why did you choose to limit it to when the fighter has a full pool? It seems like an awkward way to implement this ability - either it discourages the fighter from using his pool, or he accepts that he's not getting this particular benefit.
Its current implementation sort of feels like a half-measure. If you are worried about abuse, simply making it cost is probably sufficient.