Venture-Captain, South Carolina—Greenville
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While I both play and GM PFS fairly frequently, I generally find GMing more interesting. So my out-of-game preparation time usually focuses on preparing scenarios. As a result I am behind the curve on character creation knowledge.
I often find that encounters in PFS are overwhelmed by what I'll term "powerful" character builds. I use that term to avoid polarizing this thread.
The purpose of this thread is not to discuss opinions on game balance, but to gather information on what you consider to be powerful character builds. Note that I don't plan to misuse this information--for instance by having enemies act on knowledge they couldn't have, or singling out players by criticism or hassling. Instead, this information would be helpful in adjusting tactics once enemies know PC capabilities. The goal would be to challenge players, not to treat them unfairly. Further, this information would help determine what is reasonable to expect when, for instance, a level 7 barbarian rolls attack damage. That would make it easier to identify rules mistakes (and even cheating) without slowing down the game excessively.
Please post a summary of the build(s) and which particular components (feats, spells, class features, magic items) make it powerful. Simply posting "tiefling sorcerer" is not helpful. (That's just an example, not a comment on tiefling sorcerers.) I am happy to look up the particulars of rules so you don't have to repeat that information in full. Exhaustive detail, and a lengthy defense of why you consider it powerful, isn't necessary. It would also be helpful to note if there are gray areas or FAQ'd rules that are involved.
I think this thread will work best if we just provide information and avoid opinionated commentary.
Note: I have done some searching of the forums, but it was difficult to find a thread that aggregates this information. Feel free to point me to other threads.
Thanks!
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Anyone that summons.
Anyone with Magical Lineage and/or Wayang Spellhunter.
Anyone with a full or better progression Animal Companion.
Anyone with a +15 or better diplomacy check.
Anyone with 3 or more primary natural attacks.
Anyone with save or lose who tries hard.
Anyone with a really high CMB.
Anyone with pounce.
Anyone with Power Attack and a two handed weapon.
Anyone dual wielding Double Barreled Pistols.
Zen Archers.
Musket Masters.
Most anyone with Fate's Favored.
Anyone who can act in the surprise round even if surprised.
Most of the scariest characters combine multiple of these things.
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Sam,
I don't know if the list you ask for will help address the concerns you express. I've seen very powerful builds designed by players with a lot of rules mastery, of all stripes. Guissarm-weilding fighter/inquisitor? Yep. Mystic theurge? Yep. Guy running around, hitting people with a sap? Oh, yes.
But here are some of the more common builds. They aren't necessarily super strong, but they're easy to design and develop, without a lot of rules mastery.
- As Feral notes: summoners. Even those with legally-built eidolons. (If mid- to high-level summoners had access to no magic other than summoning powerful elementals for minutes at a time, they would be a very strong class.)
- Zen-archer monks are easy to build (the default choices are very good) and perhaps the best archers in the game.
- Speaking of monks, the maneuver master archetype is very good at disabling much more powerful foes in just a round or two. After about 6th level or so, watch out if they have anything like an amulet of mighty fists that provides the anchoring property.
- Gunslingers with a lot of guns. Anyone who can fire several shots off in a round is dangerous, and particularly a gunslinger with several weapons. It's expensive, but it eliminates the need to reload, and it removes the problem with weapons jamming in combat.
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I don't think this thread is going to accomplish what you hope to accomplish.
... this information would be helpful in adjusting tactics once enemies know PC capabilities.
You don't need to know all the powerful builds out there to do that. Once an enemy identifies the largest threat facing them, they should work to eliminate or mitigate that threat.
The goal would be to challenge players, not to treat them unfairly.
Some players who build powerful characters do so because they don't want to be challenged.
Further, this information would help determine what is reasonable to expect when, for instance, a level 7 barbarian rolls attack damage. That would make it easier to identify rules mistakes (and even cheating) without slowing down the game excessively.
It won't, though. It doesn't matter if you already know that two-handers deal massive damage. If we tell you that 60 points of damage in a round is a reasonable amount for a two-hander, then when someone's legal build does 50 points of damage, you are probably still going to be questioning, at least in your mind, that damage. If someone else shows up and does 100 points of damage, you are still going to ask to see their build.
Or you can trust that your players aren't cheating and aren't making rules mistakes.
Please post a summary of the build(s) and which particular components (feats, spells, class features, magic items) make it powerful. Simply posting "tiefling sorcerer" is not helpful. (That's just an example, not a comment on tiefling sorcerers.) I am happy to look up the particulars of rules so you don't have to repeat that information in full. Exhaustive detail, and a lengthy defense of why you consider it powerful, isn't necessary. It would also be helpful to note if there are gray areas or FAQ'd rules that are involved.
Just about any class can be built powerfully.
I think this thread will work best if we just provide information and avoid opinionated commentary.
Good luck with that.
Thanks!
You're welcome.
Now I will humor you. Here are descriptions of some powerful characters. Some are mine; some belong to other people.
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Heavens Oracles are designed to abuse the Awesome Display revelation.. but as the GM it's good to keep in mind how it's not AS devastating with color spray. If the player tries to insist the 6+HD NPCs are subject to the spell thanks to the revelation, remind him to look up the definition of "affect".
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I have, as a GM, on occasion seen a player sign up a character on Warhorn that I knew to be way too powerful for the scenario, at least on the tier that we'd be likely to play.
I've told the player "I'm not going to forbid it, but if you play that character, you'll probably win every combat on the first attack roll. I think it'd be more fun if you picked another of your characters to play instead."
On the other hand, I've also sometimes told people "don't be afraid to bring a strong PC, this scenario is on the nasty side".
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Contributor
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Some players who build powerful characters do so because they don't want to be challenged.
Quoted, as they say on the internet, for truth. My own experience and observations suggest to me that simply saying "some" may in fact be understating the case, though others will probably disagree.
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Venture-Captain, South Carolina—Greenville
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I don't know if the list you ask for will help address the concerns you express. I've seen very powerful builds designed by players with a lot of rules mastery, of all stripes. Guissarm-weilding fighter/inquisitor? Yep. Mystic theurge? Yep. Guy running around, hitting people with a sap? Oh, yes.But here are some of the more common builds.
I hear you. I think my question is too general and polarizing. And somewhere in there I forgot to say "common" builds. So thanks for listing a few.
---I will study some of the builds and combos mentioned by others and get an idea of what makes them tick.
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Now I will humor you. Here are descriptions of some powerful characters. Some are mine; some belong to other people.
Barbarian with well over 300 hp.
Two-handed fighter who rolls his attacks twice and takes the better result. His damage is 8d6+33. And it bypasses hardness (not that you need it at that point).
Sorcerer with AC 48. She also boosts her allies' ACs by anywhere from +6 to +8. And she casts spells. Her saves are all between +10 and +15, and she can roll her saving throw for someone else, 3/day.
A character with a Stealth of around +75 (+95 if not moving).
A gish character who can, if everything aligns perfectly, cast three spells, make one melee attack, and move 40 ft., all in one round. Also, her AC is 26 without wearing armor.
I'd love to see the mechanics behind these.
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Being able to reliably get rolls into the 30s at low levels would be my baseline for potentially game-breaking diplomacy. I've seen DC 30+ show up a couple times in lowbie scenarios as checks that you weren't expected to make, or were expected to only make with circumstance bonuses given by stuff unique to the scenario.
It also makes influence scenarios a breeze because of the "for every 5 over the DC you get an extra point" rule.
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A high strength druid turning into a pouncing velociraptor...
with a pouncing velociraptor/kitty companion. Being able to full attack more often than just about any other melee takes what is a good build on paper and turns it into
Any archer really. The ability to full attack with clustered shots puts melee, who loose a metric ton of damage when they have to move and attack, to shame.
Zen archers take the cake. They monostat wisdom for just about everything Hit with weapon, have the guiding property for damage to weapon, wisdom gives ac., have all good saves
Gunslingers. They can't miss. There is no defense. A full round attack is going to kill it.
Heavens oracle/Color spray happy sorcerer. First level spell that ends encounters because everything gets treated like a 1 hd creature.
Slumber hex witch. SOD. ALl day. Every day. Every mob.
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I'd love to see the mechanics behind these.
Only some of these are my characters. The others belong to other players. If we find ourselves at the same table, I'd be happy to share details of my builds with you. The only one that I'm not shy about sharing on the messageboards is the Stealth build. I misremembered the bonuses. They are too high by about +5. If you give him greater shadow armor instead of shadow armor then you can boost these by +10 beyond what I have listed. (So +100 while not moving.)
Ranks = +12
Trained Class Skill = +3
Dexterity = +7
Skill Focus = +6
Stealthy = +4
Trait bonus = +1
Size bonus (diminutive*) = +12
Competence = +5
invisibility = +20 (+40 if not moving)
Total = +70 (+90 when not moving)
* He has a magic item that can reduce his size from Small to Diminutive for 24 hours. With just a reduce person instead, his Size bonus is +8. With no magic, it is +4.
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Just about any class can be powerful, when focused on a specific thing.
Kitsune Sorcerer, undead bloodline, built for high DC Charms is going to walk all over many games, including games that other Charm builds won't be able to touch, since they can charm humanoid undead, as well as the usual suspects.
Specialist Wizards, in their specialty, will be hard to deal with. Even at first level, they get a lot of spells.
Winter Witch using even a Ray of Frost can get ridiculous, since they have a spammable spell doing, initially, 1d3+1d4+1 or something like that, at first level.
Oracle of Life, Half-Elf, Elf, or Aasimar, can make things look easy, since they can spam a lot of significant in-combat healing. Or take out an undead encounter on their first action, later on.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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- Druid with Vital Strike, with Strong Jaw cast, power attacking as a behemoth hippopotamus.
- Zen Archer/Ranger, with that amulet that auto-confirms one crit per day just for the heck of it.
- Archery-focused Fighter/Ranger (almost any given combo of levels works).
- Cavalier/Fighter with a lance and Lunge.
- Crossblooded Orc/Draconic Sorcerer, either single-class or as a dip for a cleric with the Fire domain. 5d4+10 Burning Hands at level 2 feels like a bit of overkill.
- Alchemist or Investigator with buffed AC 40+ and either tons and tons of bombs or tons and tons of strength from their mutagen.
- Single-class wizard with several Lesser Dazing Metamagic Rods, Dazing Spell, and nothing but Magic Missiles prepped.
- Bladebound/Kensai Magus.
A lot of these characters are only good at one thing, but that one thing can entirely shut down or break an encounter.
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I have, as a GM, on occasion seen a player sign up a character on Warhorn that I knew to be way too powerful for the scenario, at least on the tier that we'd be likely to play.
I've told the player "I'm not going to forbid it, but if you play that character, you'll probably win every combat on the first attack roll. I think it'd be more fun if you picked another of your characters to play instead."
On the other hand, I've also sometimes told people "don't be afraid to bring a strong PC, this scenario is on the nasty side".
I'd probably be more willing to go for less-ideal builds if that was the general style of PFS in my area, but where I am we're all fairly averse to even the slightest of spoilers.
"Plan for the worst," gets ingrained with people early, because I've seen some "Tier 1-2" that gave the enemy far worse cheese than anything a player could ever hope to muster. Death means starting again at level 1 if you can't afford the Raise Dead spell which doesn't help the attitude either.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I have, as a GM, on occasion seen a player sign up a character on Warhorn that I knew to be way too powerful for the scenario, at least on the tier that we'd be likely to play.
I've told the player "I'm not going to forbid it, but if you play that character, you'll probably win every combat on the first attack roll. I think it'd be more fun if you picked another of your characters to play instead."
On the other hand, I've also sometimes told people "don't be afraid to bring a strong PC, this scenario is on the nasty side".
I'd probably be more willing to go for less-ideal builds if that was the general style of PFS in my area, but where I am we're all fairly averse to even the slightest of spoilers.
"Plan for the worst," gets ingrained with people early, because I've seen some "Tier 1-2" that gave the enemy far worse cheese than anything a player could ever hope to muster. Death means starting again at level 1 if you can't afford the Raise Dead spell which doesn't help the attitude either.
I can understand that attitude, although I think you might be better off with teensy spoilers and a good choice of character.
In this case it was a 4th level barbarian with 20 Str, power attack and combat reflexes. Not really a bizarre build. But at tier 1-2 he'd auto-hit any enemy that came close and his minimum damage would kill almost every enemy instantly.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Well, the point I was trying to make: sometimes it's better to ask a player to grab a different character from his binder. Especially if you know the player and know that he's got alternative characters available.
And that can be because the character is genuinely too powerful, or just because of tier issues.
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Note that I don't plan to misuse this information--for instance by having enemies act on knowledge they couldn't have, or singling out players by criticism or hassling. Instead, this information would be helpful in adjusting tactics once enemies know PC capabilities.
Your stated goal for this thread doesn't make sense.
Consider this: you're at a table as a player (not the GM), and you encounter a monster you know nothing about. Maybe it's unique to the scenario, or is a familiar monster but with unknown class levels added, or maybe it's from a new Bestiary and you just haven't seen it yet.
In any case, it starts doing its thing, and its thing is unusual, and it's wrecking you. Do you just keep doing what you normally do without adjusting your own tactics, just because you haven't read the statblock or had someone explain it to you before? Or are you able to adapt just based on what you see happening?
Now, I believe you that your intent is not malicious. However, if I'm correct in my guess of your answers to the above questions, then that means you're looking to approach adapting to strong PCs differently than you would approach adapting to strong monsters/NPCs. So even though you don't mean to do anything inappropriate, the clear difference there suggests that perhaps you're not approaching those PC builds and their weaknesses as fairly as you're trying to.
Again, I do believe in the integrity of your intent, but the difference in approach shows a difference in mindset, which in turn suggests a difference in likely action, even if you believe you're coming at this fairly.
I would advise giving up on this thread, and reacting to strong PCs at the table by asking yourself, "If I was a player and that PC was the BBEG, what would I do?"
My 2 cents. :)
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Heavens Oracles are designed to abuse the Awesome Display revelation.. but as the GM it's good to keep in mind how it's not AS devastating with color spray. If the player tries to insist the 6+HD NPCs are subject to the spell thanks to the revelation, remind him to look up the definition of "affect".6+ HD creatures are already affected by colour spray, the revelation just brings them down into lower categories potentially. I think you need to read the spell.
In all fairness, I did misread the spell as being 5HD: rather than 5+HD.
One little character makes all the difference and I stand corrected.
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Oh man! It's been awhile since I've seen a discussion of "Powerful PFS characters"! It used to just be people talking about Zen Archers, Gunslingers, Slumber Witches, and Summoners (the class, or any other class partaking in summoning).
Now it appears to include... uh... Power Attacking barbarians? Weird.
I'm going to assume the intent of the thread is to delineate powerful builds that might be doing something that would catch an GM off-guard, so therefore will specify "Big Reach" builds. This is an offshoot of the "Power Attacking melee" fellow (who struggles a lot with more complex maps and monsters without more build complexity in the form of flying mounts, etc.) whose most important feat is "Combat Reflexes."
A large number of GMs have been caught off-guard recently by the amount of reach it's possible to gain with modern builds including Long Arm, bloodrage abilities, etc. It's never been so difficult to tell if you're provoking from that ogre-like man with a wayfinder pinned to his lapel grinning at you and wielding a whip across the room.
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From my last game alone
- White haired witch / barbarian grappler specialist. Something like a +30-+40 at level 11. Also his build wasn't considered grappled while holding something.
- Multiclassed monk/swashbuckler/cleric that had Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp. Two AOOs whenever something falls prone. Which really broke the mold when it worked with the...
- Multiclassed bloodrager / fighter / monk that enlarged and raged to get a reach of 30 ft, or 40 ft. with [/i]longarm bracers[/i]. Coupled with Greater Trip and Whirlwind Attack, along with Ki Throw. Well, it got silly very fast. He would make a trip against everyone, trip them, then pile them all next to the monk, whose Combat Reflexes let him pummel them to death when they landed in front of him.
- Sorcerer / Wizard / Bloatmage. The double trait schtick to reduce the spell level of metamagic on fireballs by two levels, and the sorcerer level to pick up crossblooded draconic and orc for bonus damage. Pretty silly stuff.
Other ones that I have known.
- The tiny fox thing. AC 40+ at level 7, throw in levels of mouser to irritate your GM and get an agile amulet of mighty fists--not much can stop this.
- Rogue/cavalier with the Thug archetype that is able to intimidate, get 20+ than what is needed, and frighten foes off of it. Very powerful especially the one that still retained its animal companion
- Early entry trick into Mystic Theruge. The sheer amount of spells is pretty insane. They tend to just toss level 1-2 spells around like pocket change, so every fight with a spellcaster started with a silence.
- Sorcerer with the Fey bloodline that has the item that lets you apply your first level bloodline ability onto any spell cast 3/day. Suddenly you can toss out magic missles that cause your opponents to skip a turn with no save and no attack roll needed. Pretty good for a 5,000 gp item.
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Unless there is more than one, I've played with that fox character several times. It's good at what it does, but DR/hardness 10 creatures ignore it, it has no way to deal with flying enemies, it has to spend a long time with no way to hurt incorporeal creatures, and waves of exhaustion instantly and guaranteed takes it out of combat.
EDIT: I should note that I'm not theorycrafting. I have literally seen every one of these actually happen (those last three all in the same adventure!)
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With smart enemies, if they see someone who is a major threat (as in, dealing huge amounts of damage), it is likely that *everyone* will attack that character. After all, that's what PC's do! And sometimes, aiding another to stack a bunch of +2's onto that hard-to-hit-but-squishy character is just the ticket.
Even with smart enemies, though, I try to avoid thinking about the PC's actual build, and just work with what I (as the bad guy) have seen.
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I totally agree with having enemies make in-the-moment decisions based on the texture of the current situation. However, it does make sense to establish what exactly the good strategies are so that enemies can act appropriately. It adds a sense of verisimilitude and gives you better tools to challenge a party looking for a challenge.
For example, a savvy martial character should probably know that generally the weak point of most archers is maneuvers, specifically disarm or sundering the bow, and tripping or grappling the archer so he can't attack.
A set of baseline expectations an NPC might have should also work against enemies as well. They may have no idea that snap shot (or even just that this specific archer had it), and they might expect that you can't do maneuvers with a bow. Until they actually see what you do, they also probably wont be able to tell if the difference between a ranger archer without a pet or a fighter archer, or an inquisitor archer and a paladin archer.
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I've been doing research of my own on the topic of "Powerful Character Options." I've reached a point in Pathfinder Society Organized Play where I'm finding it difficult to GM for tables that have more than one character that is incredibly potent at trivializing encounter after encounter. I've resolved to start GMing low level scenarios and asking players to not bring characters to my table that could easily be viewed as powerful versus effective. This is a bit crude, but is a last ditch effort to keep GMing and playing the PFS scenarios that I love.
I may or may not provide this list to players as an example of what I mean. Seeing one of these at my table wouldn't cause me to over react, but if it becomes a regular issue I might have to have a polite and private conversation with that player asking them to bring another character when signing up for my table. Unfortunately, it is this or I'll end up leaving the campaign, something I dread doing :(
A summary of this thread adapted by me:
Examples of Powerful Character Options in PFS
Characters with 3 or more primary natural attacks.
Characters with pounce.
Characters optimized for bombs.
Characters optimized for firearms.
Characters optimized for ranged combat.
Characters with an optimized CMB.
Characters with AC 35, or higher.
Characters with slumber hex.
Characters with an optimized animal companion, eidolon, or familiar.
Casters optimized for save-or-lose spells.
Crossblooded sorcerer with orc/draconic bloodlines.
Characters optimized for dazing magic missile.
Characters with Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp.
Characters with traits that are as powerful, or more powerful, than similar feats.
Examples of Better-than-Average Character Options in PFS
Characters with Power Attack and a two handed weapon.
Characters with a +15 bonus or better on a skill check.
Characters that can act in the surprise round, even if surprised.
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Examples of Better-than-Average Character Options in PFS
Characters with Power Attack and a two handed weapon.
Characters with a +15 bonus or better on a skill check.
Characters that can act in the surprise round, even if surprised.If that is better than average I would not want to sit at a table with these players.
Especially since none of those are even high optimization it's like the bare bones minimum other than the last one which is the diviner in core.
Perhaps an addendum would be Power Attack and a two-handed weapon enhanced with rage mechanics and/or mutagens. I was also thinking that a +20, or higher skill check might be more reasonable. A DC 40 skill check isn't unheard of in PFS scenario and it should be obtainable.
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Examples of Better-than-Average Character Options in PFS
Characters with Power Attack and a two handed weapon.
Characters with a +15 bonus or better on a skill check.
Characters that can act in the surprise round, even if surprised.
...the frick?
Using one CRB feat in exactly the manner it was intended is above average?
An 8th-level cleric who dared to put ranks in Sense Motive (or any other characters' class skills that aren't tied to a dump stat) is above average?
A 1st-level CRB class feature that's worse than just succeeding on your Perception check in the first place is above average?
With all due respect, I don't think your assessments are valid.
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Examples of Better-than-Average Character Options in PFS
Characters with Power Attack and a two handed weapon.
Characters with a +15 bonus or better on a skill check.
Characters that can act in the surprise round, even if surprised....the frick?
Using one CRB feat in exactly the manner it was intended is above average?
An 8th-level cleric who dared to put ranks in Sense Motive (or any other characters' class skills that aren't tied to a dump stat) is above average?
A 1st-level CRB class feature that's worse than just succeeding on your Perception check in the first place is above average?
With all due respect, I don't think your assessments are valid.
Bear in mind, these are notes taken from the comments above. I've just condensed them into a list. I also don't consider these things to be "powerful" options, which is why I didn't include them in that list.
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Anyone with a high Bluff or Diplomacy skill. It just feels like a cop-out when with just a few words you can end entire encounters. A friend has a Gnome Wizard focused on illusion spells and has a Bluff that's through the roof. Yeah, technically enemies get a Will save to disbelieve, but against that Bluff, no they won't. I'm not saying it isn't effective, but it's maybe a bit too effective and a bit anticlimactic when one spell solves an entire combat.
Reach builds with high STR. Another friend has an Abyssal Bloodrager with the Rageshaper archetype. His claws pratically one-hit everything that threatens from him. Of course, he's specialised in reach, so at some point he had 20-foot reach. To be fair, his AC is terrible, but as said, most things are dead before they come within melee contact.
Another friend has a weird build where he transforms into an octopus with 8 attacks. I don't know the build exactly, but his damage output was amazing. The only downside is that they're all secondary attacks, but he still managed to mitigate most of that.
I like powerful builds, but some of these are really over the top and take the challenge out of the game. I make powerful characters as well, but I don't go out of my way to finish fights on my own. Most of the ones I listed here could take a scenario and solo them, given enough time to prepare.
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Also, pretty much anyone with a Keen weapon, especially a Magus. I know, it's the obvious choice, why use an Earth Breaker when you can use a Falchion? I use a Falchion myself, so I'm part of the problem, but it just feels so goddamn cheap. A 15-20 crit range just isn't fair against most encounters. Our Magus dropped a legitimately scary monster in one round due to a lucky crit and dealt nearly 100 damage due to a Shocking Grasp.
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Most powerful characters are optimized for one thing, although if you wanna get ridiculous with skills, investigator/ninja/bard (or some combination thereof) is probably the way to go. Here's a few I've seen.
Winter Witch - Ice spells. Just...just ice spells...
Enchantment specialized wizard (or any specialized wizard; that one is just annoying from personal experience)
Bloodragers, Barbarians, or 90% of fighter builds
HUNTERS
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a lot of these characters being offered up are good at one thing or just one facet of the game
which means, in pfs, that you will run into scenarios where you absolutely wreck shop, scenarios where you do okay, and scenarios where you are basically just nipples on a breastplate
'I saw this do good once' does not make a world-shattering build