For starters, you can find the full class write-up here. I am not putting it directly here because I am not sure how to get the tables to look nice.
I've spent the last 3 months off and on trying to nail down a full-caster necromancer as a core class as opposed to an archetype or prestige class. Let me quickly gloss over the issues with the main classes, and explain my reasoning for ending up were I did:
the wizard
-delayed access to raise undead spells
-channel energy removes customization from the class forcing necromancy for arcane school
-very little ability to heal undead associates
+full caster
The Cleric
+ability to heal undead
+casts at appropriate level
+undead lord archetype has uniquie companion, but does not level with you
-3/4 BAB means lost potential
-not the variance in spells the wizard has access to i.e. very little illusion if any
-divine powered (i feel a necromancer should be at least partially arcane based)
Alchemist: while I love the alchemist, he is neither a full caster nor does he have 1/2 bab, so he does not fit the theme.
The solution, I feel, is an amalgam of the features a necromancer needs:
+half Bab
+full caster
+arcane powered
+ready access to undead healing
+unique undead companion from first level
+sorcerer like ability to transform into undead
+ability to raise persons from the dead, souls intact
To that end, I have combined these features and blended them into what I feel to be an appropriately balanced class to the druid.
If you have not read the document, please do so, it may be found here.
Things I need to address:
1. yes, I know that no other class lets you continue to level if you fall outside the alignment restrictions. The core of classes like the cleric and paladin relies in divine will; if your gods no longer favor you, you lose power; or in discipling; the barbarian relies on being wild, the monk on discipline; remove either, and the going gets tough. The necromancer, however, is none of these things; if his cleric-like powers result from his arcane blasphemous research, perhaps a non-evil necromancer is not willing to go that far. If his powers come from an oracle-like chosen-ous-ness, perhaps evil deities no longer favor him. In all cases, the core of his class remains intact, although diminished.
2. Why ban evocation? In older version of dnd, your opposition schools were harder set. Blasphemous research is likely old, ergo the necromancer is unlikely to cast evocation spells. Additionally, if evocation was allowed, every min/maxer out there would take it at second level. With this choice gone, we will see variation.
3. Channel negative energy should not be channeled at your level? You may have a point. my point here was to not give edge out to another class on being better at something necromancy; needs playtesting.
4. Undeadenings are unbalanced, particularly the capstone ability. Again, perhaps you are right.
5. Raise independent undead is too wordy, is not balanced, is too...
The purpose of raise independent undead is to allow the necromancer to raise fallen allies in a different way than what a cleric does. This is the easiest, most straightforward way to do that, and the ability in itself is not broken. Additional, it allows the necromancer to create different kinds of undead allies he could potentially mind control.
6. Replace undead and Master's call seem off/dont go with the theme. Perhaps you are right; these go with the theme of an evil necromancer boss; if you make it to his throne room, he will summon a great many of his minions to him, and make a speedy getaway. These are the abilities that I see as not core to the class and are most likely to be replaced.
7. The independent undead is unbalanced.
tackling this one case by case:
-full bab necessary to hit things at higher levels. this is the main focus of the class.
-druid progression instead of eidolon progression for hit dice is necessary to avoid hitting 0 hp at level 1, resulting in a destroyed companion.
-saves are different/absent to reflect undead template
-int scores here as necessitated by the theme of loss; see small flavor section at end of post.
-technically pets that died from old age could not be resurrected, but i'm not touching that issue.
-Yes, the Humanoid is more powerful than almost any animal companion, and has a higher BAB than the fighter at first level. The iconic necromancer would have a humanoid companion; there is no reason NOT to include druid animals. The BAB of 2 at level 1 is abnormal, but since you cannot select a feat at level 1 that requires a bab of 1, it evens out. This is an area I am especially looking for constructive criticism.
Short flavor section: The necromancer's entry into the profession is often fueled by loss; the death of a family member, loved one, or even a beloved pet; the necromancer refuses to let go of the attachment, and ultimately results in a walking avatar of their form, soul attached. I leave the specifics vague intentionally here, but there is likely a reason necromancers are evil from the start. Individual players may choose their path to companionship, be it knowing living sacrifice, poorly thought out rituals gone awry, or divine(or the opposite) providence, the could of a lost companion is irrevocably tied to a skeleton. The creation, as a first, is imperfect, and the intelligence of the undead companion is constantly modified as the necromancer progresses. In the case of a human-type companion, they should eventually resemble their former selves in terms of intelligence. In the case of a lost pet, the soul of the animal is still in there, but a supernatural intelligence is imbued, though still controlled by the animal's spirit. This creation has free will, though the necromancer may challenge this through normal means. (i.e. control undead)
Necromancers may choose to upgrade their creation upon discovering raise independent undead lesser, resulting in a leadership class-level style companion. Alternatively, the companion simply grows in power at level 9, or at the appropriate time if it is an animal.
It's entirely likely that many necromancers who do not fancy themselves evil quit the practice upon realizing their original goal of full resurrection at level 17, ending their bond with their companion.
I know that I am wordy, but am really looking forward to some advice.
While I'm totally down to chat some paladin bonding with this class, i did a thorough check on d20pfsrd, and nothing was similar enough to what I felt was necessary for a necromantic class. The white necromancer is just that, white. She loses (she from the image) loses any possible evil business, casts raise dead as a sorcerer would, not a cleric, and has a SUPER cut down spell list that is not elective. I'm 100% sure you did not actually read what i posted.
In all cases, I'm happy to discuss either. What specifically from this 'white necromancer' and the paladin are you trying to vibe together?
My ipad can't read your MS document. If you can save it as a PDF, it will be readable on more operating system.
My ipad can't read your MS document. If you can save it as a PDF, it will be readable on more operating system.
You're not wrong! My bad, new link for pdf may be found here.
I sent you feedback. Did you come up with any revisions?
Thank you for all the feedback!
Indeed I have. I was trying to make the document easier to read before posting, since a few of the things you mentioned are covered, but not well labeled. I will repost in an easier to read, less like the core rulebook format asap.
1. formatting
Yes, absolutely, trying to reformat the document to mention what levels things are gained at. If they were not, they will be in order.
2. Alignment
The Alignment is something I have thought long and hard about, and have battled about it with my peers. A major portion of the Necromancer's power comes from his third level ability blasphemy, which is wicked evil. Any non-evil necromancer would have to be an archetype apart to replace this with something else. (there is an archetype description under the alignment business) I really want to allow for non-evil alignments, but am struggling for some reason to. I've made a change non-the-less.
3. Spell Casting
I agree with your assessment; this is why there is tertiary casting at 11th level, allowing a third school. I would be happy to discuss why evocation is listed as banned.
4. Undeadening
I addressed this specifically in the section after undeadening; I've copied that section here.
"If the necromancer does not desire to be a skeleton, he may conduct an 8 hour ritual similar to lesser raise independent undead, but without the material cost. If conducted when the necromancer achieves level 10, the necromancer never begins to decay, keeping his mortal appearance. If not held within one week of achieving level 10 and before level 11, the necromancer’s skin begins to rot, and he must wait to gain raise independent undead, whereupon he may conduct the ritual with 50gp/hit die of onyx gems to reconstitute his flesh. In this case, he looks as he would if he were raised by raise independent undead. Master raise independent undead may be cast in a similar way, rendering the necromancer as he was in life. This effect is cosmetic."
I do like your idea of this choice deciding what kind of resistance he gets, and am working to introduce that, and work this choice into the verbage of the undeadings.
5. quick animate
OH MY YES. Great idea with this; I'm going to try to move some things around to make room for this; Teleport undead was crap anyway.
6. Undead companion.
a. Mechanical implementation
This is a strong core component of the class that needs to be powerful. The intention is to come out with a humanoid undead that becomes more intelligent as you level up. You can substitute this for an animal companion's base stats that is undead, but doing so should be mechanically disadvantageous.
The unique undead is intended to be a strength based leadership-like follower. He needs a minimum of +15 to hit at max level, as he is intended to actually succeed in combat. He needs to be able to tank a fair amount of hits, so he needs at least 15 hit dice at max level. During playtesting, the companion kept dying at level 1 from lack of hp. the only i could come up with this was to give him 2 hit dice at level one like an animal companion, which led to an animal-companion-like BAB progression with full BAB, and familiar int progression.
The undead is supposed to be more powerful than a druid's animal companion, and less/differently powerful to an eidolon. Think of the necromancer like a summoner here that is full caster.
Please let me know if you've got better ideas.
I'll post the updated pdf when i get done reformatting, should be in a few hours.
Dotting for interest.
Gonna r read it, but my initial thoughts is that this should either be an alternate class of the wizard, or it should be a unique class with its own spell list.
SPELLS
I don't have issue with evocation being banned - its that the vast majority of spells in general are banned. I feel the smarter way to go about it is to not ban schools and devise a spell list that fits the theme you want.
KEEP FLESH OR NOT
I would keep the details on this lighter than what you wrote up. He's been at this necromancer thing for some time, so it fair to assume that he has figured this out ahead of time. Although, you could also make the skeleton/corpse state changeable.
COMPANION
I fully expect you to use the basic animal companion chart (maybe with a little vatiation on it), buut keep in mind whe differences between an animal and an undead are.
I'm doing some heavy rewrites and reformat, aiming for closer to d20pfsrd this time instead of core's style, and to be more concise.
Custom lists are small, it is far better to layout guidelines for what is available. This enables third party content blah blah. the necro has all the necromancy spells of eighth and lower from the cleric's list (some ninth), all the necro spells from the wiz/sorcerer list, those are a given.
You are correct that banning a majority of the spells is going to make people wary of playing the necromancer. Help me change that. He is a differently themed full-caster summoner with a not-broken pet. (and sorcerer style transformations) The summoner's spell list is straight bad; we see enchantment, conjuration, divination, little abjuration, little illusion. On the other hand, the wizzard's spell selection is too broad; the necromancer would snipe him if left with a full spell list.
My one REAL issue about a specific spell list is ruining someone's idea. You might want to play a necro that has full whatever school spells, and I want you to be able to do that in a balanced way, for whatever school you want. (that isn't evocation) Perhaps the solution is to have a limited list, but allow full school access instead of secondary/tertiary school? I'll go through all the spells on d20pfsrd and come up with a list, fitting the theme of mind control, illusion, and buffing + limited utility.
Please give me ideas.
Banning conjuration honestly seems more thematic to me than evocation. But, we learned from the ACG play test that sometimes you really need to just come up with a spell list.
In the spells description for the class, include a line about GMs allowing spells they deem thematically appropriate, not that they didn't already have this power though.
I think the class needs more variable options, like, allow it to pick up abilities from all the necromancy schools and subschools as well as the death domains and subdomains, but only let him pick a limited number. You could also include the bloodlines from undead and the oracle mysteries like bones so they get a large number of options that any pathfinder necromancer already would have wanted access to. There's also a sweet witch archetype that does necromancy better than anyone, the grave walker I believe.
At certain intervals, make the lower class features from those specific options available, then at higher levels make the higher options available so the player can access like two or three of them on the same build.
You can also look at archetypes like the undead lord, and the knight of the sepulcher for more ideas for customization options.
You will want to edit them so that the text matches your class and balances with it, plus cite any sources from which you borrow material. Usually a hyperlink does the job. On mobile right now, will update with a link to my own classes for formatting reference.
EDIT:My own Enforcer class has the d20pfsrd format to its text.
I also think you oughta have more options on that undead companion. Like for instance, offer an option like an arcane bond where the player can choose to have an item instead of the pet, and let them upgrade it.
When it comes to the companion, they should be allowed different base choices like having a skeleton vs a zombie, and be able to upgrade it at later levels into something incorporeal like a wraith or something else.
Then you can write up your own archetype for the class that replaces the base undead companion with something like a druids animal where the base skeleton is that of an animal instead of a humanoid.
That's how I would write the class.
All of these are great ideas; once I get the spell list done, heavy rewrites are inbound since quite a few abilities got integrated;
projected changes:
Undeadening path splits: each of which has different abilities definitely a zombie/skeleton path, an unchanged path, MAYBE a ghost path; I have no idea how to balance that one without playtesting.
new 3rd, 7th, 11th, 14th, 19th level ability
possibly replacement of bonus feats
Undead companion will get more undead-like abilities as it develops; Like undeadening, he will get a non-cosmetic type-rewrite for his appearance. Might match the necromancer's choice.
Definitely going to see about an ability table to pick from based on core material of related undead archetypes. The animal companion bit is already there.
Going to put a note in the undeadening section about how some necromancers may be able to change between forms.
Personally, I don't really like the Undeadening ability.
I think there are plenty of abilities listed that can grant you most of the bonuses you have listed, and DR/non-lethal is pretty overpowered, since it effectively gives you +4 AC for free.
A lot of the other abilities like Blashpemy and the secondary schools will have to go with the implication of a custom list.
As for the list, include all necromancy spells from their respective lists at their earliest available level (barring any summoner levels). If this class is meant to be the ultimate necromancer, then a cleric that dabbles in it shouldn't be better than he is.
Include a bonus Necromancy spell slot per level as one of his class features, like a domain or specialty school.
Channeling Energy and Touch of Undeath seem to be taken from the antipaladin abilities, they oughta work differently. Like the arcanists or wizard school abilities, channeling should be 3+INT per day and available at first level. Touch of Undeath should probably just function as Touch of Corruption, or not bother. The class really seems bloated with too many abilities, especially for a full caster who has very few dead levels anyway.
When it comes to class design, simplicity on the table and a regular pattern to the acquisition of new class abilities is the preferred method of advancement.
Hope it helps, good luck with your class.
The source material for dr/non-lethal I was referencing was a miss-type; it is supposed to function as DR overcome by lethal damage; i.e. seldom useful.
DR should be something limited to rounds per day, and based off level. Giving free never ending DR leans toward over powered, especially on a full spell casting class.
Were that it were straight DR/-, I would agree with you, though there are many exceptions. Full casting classes can get some pretty nasty DR as is, which is why I'm not too concerned with giving it out, since it doesn't stack most of the time. DR negated by lethal damage is almost worthless, and DR negated by bludgeoning or slashing is countered with a +1 weapon, which any enemy worth a damn at later levels will have. The DR is flavor.
How about get rid of the undeadening ability and replace it with an undead version of wild shape?
First iteration of the spell list may be found here. Only original spells are 'undead ally' which acts like a planar ally, but is any undead of appropriate HD, 'Reconstitute', a breath of life for negative energy creatures, and 'Resurgence', because i needed a necromancy regeneration.
Edit: Updated the link, which apparently I do not have to do.
I think you are mostly on target with modeling this off of a Druid, but what about modeling it more after a Summoner? Wipe the summoner spell list for necro spells, and change the Eidolon to be a Necromantic Fetish, with appropriate evolution. Change the Summon Monster for Animate Dead spells or the necromancy ability and there ya go.
Thank you! My original intent was a different-flavored full-caster summoner. I ended up more druid-sided because the eidolon (mostly evolution) is OP (here's hoping for a good unchained implementation). Mr Barnes up there even suggested an ability to quick temporary raise undead, and I've been plotting to steal the summoner's extended summon Spell-like-ability for it. Will have full necro re-write done tonight.
I'll go though the spell list more thoroughly later, bit the first thing I noticed was no Detect Undead which seems very off to me.
I'll go though the spell list more thoroughly later, bit the first thing I noticed was no Detect Undead which seems very off to me.
He gets detect undead on concentration at first level, I feel it would be redundant to give him the spell.
"Detect Undead: At will, the necromancer can use Detect Undead, as the spell. A necromancer can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or creature within 60 feet and determine if it is undead. If it is, he may determine its general state, i.e. approximate health, intelligence, and if it is under someone’s control. "
Edit: rewrite is not done, being posted tomorrow.
Bonus Language (Ex): A necromancer's knows Necril, the language of undead, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level necromancer. Necril is a free language for a necromancer; that is, he knows it in addition to his regular allotment of languages and it doesn't take up a language slot.
Knowledge of Death (Ex): A necromancer adds 1/2 his level (minimum 1) to Intimidate checks and Knowledge (religion) checks made to identify undead.
Spontaneous Casting: A necromancer can channel stored spell energy into harmful spells that he did not prepare ahead of time. The necromancer can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison in order to cast any inflict spell of the same spell level or lower (an inflict spell is any spell with “inflict” in its name).
Undead Empathy (Su): A necromancer can improve the attitude of mindless undead. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person, but it can be even though the undead lacks an Intelligence score and they do not share a language. The necromancer rolls 1d20 and adds his necromancer level and his Charisma modifier to determine the undead empathy check result.
When using undead empathy, the necromancer and the undead must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an undead n this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
A necromancer can also use this ability to influence undead with an Intelligence score, but he takes a –4 penalty on the check.
Undead Form (Su): At 4th level, a necromancer gains the ability to turn himself into any small or Medium undead and back again once per day. His options for new forms include all creatures with the undead type. This ability functions like the undead anatomy I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per necromancer level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to undead or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an undead the necromancer is familiar with.
A necromancer can use this ability an additional time per day at 6th level and every two levels thereafter, for a total of eight times at 18th level. At 20th level, a necromancer can use undead form at will. As a necromancer gains in levels, this ability allows the necromancer to take on the form of larger and smaller undead. Each form expends one daily usage of this ability, regardless of the form taken.
At 8th level, a necromancer can use undead form to change into a Large or Tiny undead, as undead anatomy II.
At 12th level, a necromancer can use undead form to change into a Diminutive or Huge undead, as undead anatomy III.
At 16th level, a necromancer can use undead as undead anatomy IV.
Bonus Language (Ex): A necromancer's knows Necril, the language of undead, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level necromancer. Necril is a free language for a necromancer; that is, he knows it in addition to his regular allotment of languages and it doesn't take up a language slot.
Knowledge of Death (Ex): A necromancer adds 1/2 his level (minimum 1) to Intimidate checks and Knowledge (religion) checks made to identify undead.
Spontaneous Casting: A necromancer can channel stored spell energy into harmful spells that he did not prepare ahead of time. The necromancer can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison in order to cast any inflict spell of the same spell level or lower (an inflict spell is any spell with “inflict” in its name).
Undead Empathy (Su): A necromancer can improve the attitude of mindless undead. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person, but it can be even though the undead lacks an Intelligence score and they do not share a language. The necromancer rolls 1d20 and adds his necromancer level and his Charisma modifier to determine the undead empathy check result.
When using undead empathy, the necromancer and the undead must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an undead n this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
A necromancer can also use this ability to influence undead with an Intelligence score, but he takes a –4 penalty on the check.
Undead Form (Su): At 4th level, a necromancer gains the ability to turn himself into any small or Medium undead and back again once per day. His options for new forms include all creatures with the undead type. This ability functions like the undead anatomy I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per necromancer level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to undead or...
I like most of these, though the intimidate thing seems kinda weird. Plus, I'm pretty sure mindless undead don't have attitudes....
I think we should wait to see the rewrite before we make judgments and suggestions.
I'm sure you're right about the attitude. I whipped that up pretty quick. I suppose I was looking for a way to keep a mindless undead from attacking, assuming it wasn't controlled by an enemy and attacking. You could instead write a control undead ability, but I was looking for something that reflects an (Ex) ability as opposed to (Su).
As for Itimidate, I was just translating the druid's nature sense ability into what a necromancer might have. I imagine necromancers as being kind of scary anyways. :)
Finally! Rephrased 95%+ of the content to be easier to understand, added a few abilities, and generally made things more transparent. Regrets include:
1. I was not able to add a necro version of the summoner's spell like summon ability like I wanted
3. wasn't able to shove something like the agent of the graves increased hit dice of undead controlled in.
Also:
I haven't super checked everything, so its possible there are errors/inconsistencies. The undeadenings are all pretty WIP, looking for suggestions there.
An archetype that gets wild shape like Ciaran Barnes wants is forthcomming once this gets ironed out. Other archetype suggestions welcome.