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Don't make potions or grenades higher than +0 right now. The keyword tech on this is not working. A +0 Alch Fire will deal the same amount of damage as a +2 alch fire, etc. Presumably this means that a +2 Ward Gel will act the same as a +0 Ward Gel in terms of duration.
~Sspit
Goblin Squad Member
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Don't make potions or grenades higher than +0 right now. The keyword tech on this is not working. A +0 Alch Fire will deal the same amount of damage as a +2 alch fire, etc. Presumably this means that a +2 Ward Gel will act the same as a +0 Ward Gel in terms of duration.
~Sspit
Thanks for the heads up!
Ugh, that is not good to hear. I know there aren't a large number of us Alchemists out there but having your hard work to produce higher quality products go to waist just sucks. I'm sure it will get fixed at some point though. Thanks Sspit!
Fortunately, potions keep indefinitely :)
Confirmed, still not working.
Also, a round seems to be 4.5 seconds.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Grenades were absolutely working correctly last week when I tested them. More keywords meant more damage. Haven't had a chance to test potion duration yet.
The timer on a buff will start as soon as the effects are applied, and with slower actions you lose a few hundred miliseconds to finishing the followthrough on your action. But I don't think that should be enough to turn 6 seconds into 4.5 of practical duration. I'll try to check that this week.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How does effect power scale on consumables? I would assume it scales with the + on the consumable? Eg. T1 +0 grenades have 0 effect power, T1 +1 have 1 effect power, etc. up to a max of 12?
How about tokens? Presumably T1 tokens must have low effect power so as to not be as effective when wearing T3 armor.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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All consumables are basically expendables that act like they're matching (the upgrade value + level - 3) expendable keywords. So, for example, a potion that's +2 should count as one keyword less than its level (or 2, for a Tier 1 potion). Tokens are all +0, so should count as matching 0 keywords for T1 tokens (3 for T2, and 6 for T3). If you have a +3 T1 consumable, it should have 4 Effect Power (because of the way expendables round their keyword effect) and 61 base damage.
And that's a possible reason for the approximately 4.5 second buffs: if you're using a +0 consumable with a one round buff and you're using +1 armor (and matching all the keywords), you have 2 Effect Protection and, thus, should be experiencing -20% duration on your +0 consumables... which should take one round durations down to 4.8 seconds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All consumables are basically expendables that act like they're matching (the upgrade value + level - 3) expendable keywords. So, for example, a potion that's +2 should count as one keyword less than its level (or 2, for a Tier 1 potion). Tokens are all +0, so should count as matching 0 keywords for T1 tokens (3 for T2, and 6 for T3). If you have a +3 T1 consumable, it should have 4 Effect Power (because of the way expendables round their keyword effect) and 61 base damage.
And that's a possible reason for the approximately 4.5 second buffs: if you're using a +0 consumable with a one round buff and you're using +1 armor (and matching all the keywords), you have 2 Effect Protection and, thus, should be experiencing -20% duration on your +0 consumables... which should take one round durations down to 4.8 seconds.
I have to say that I did not understand much of this.
"a potion that's +2 should count as one keyword less than its level"
What level are we talking about: the level of the recipe? Or the Tier?
I was glad that at least one system does not use keywords, but now you bring keywords in, to explain how it works.... :(
Effect Power 4? This implies that people need to have profound understanding of how power scales up over the different Tiers. I have seen the math, the graphs but all this is not obvious.
I would much prefer if we could get descriptions, that go like:
Apprentice's Cure Potion +0: Heals for 150, 10 seconds of +3% Health Regeneration.
Apprentice's Cure Potion +1: Heals for 150, 15 seconds of +3% Health Regeneration.
You mouse over it, you know what it does.
What is "Effect Protection"? It sounds as if wearing better armor is actually diminishing the beneficial effect of a Consumable Buff?
Or do we need to match the Consumable to our armor in some way too?
Just as I thought I understood Utilities......
/cry
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tyncale:
Consumables are just a special form of expendable. It's just that they don't match against your class feature like other expendables. Normal expendables (eg. Fireball, Augment, etc.) have levels from 1-9. So do consumables. Up until the above description I'd ignored the level of consumables, but now it makes sense why they have them.
Effect Power and Effect Protection are basically a way of scaling various effects that aren't damage eg. stacks, durations, etc. Essentially Effect Power is offensive and Protection is defensive. It's the difference between your Effect Power and your target's Effect Protection that affects the scaling.
When it comes to targeting yourself (eg. with a buff) then your own Effect Protection is used against you. This may seem counter intuitive, but it simulates you being higher level. High Effect Protection comes with having lots of matched armor keywords and is basically a measure of being 'high level'. So low level buffs (eg. T1 tokens) shouldn't have much effect on you.
For attacks Effect Power is basically +10%*number of matched keywords. Eg. 2 attack keywords matched means +20% duration/20% more stacks etc. For armor Effect Protection is 10%*number of matched keywords. So with 1 matched keyword on armor that's -10% duration/stacks etc. So overall that's 20%-10%=10%. Obviously this varies based on matchup, but makes it so that low level characters (with low Effect Power) can't just stack up massive amounts of debuffs on higher level characters.
For expendables (including consumables) it's instead 1.4*matched*10% (round down to nearest 10%). So Stephen's example of T1+3 had 3 expendable keywords. 3*1.4=4.2. Round down to 4. That's Effect Power 4 or +40% on non-damaging effects.
(Apologies if this is incoherent. I've barely slept.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks, Nightdrifter, I understand a little better now. I had missed the fact that Consumables have levels, (3,6 or 9), that explains a lot. I think you missed a "minus" before the first "10%"in the sentence where you explain Effect Protection. Just to see if I am truly understanding it.
I think what makes the formula confusing is the "start with a number(level) then *subtract* another number first(3) and then add another number again(upgrade level) to get it back higher, and then multiply the outcome with 1.4
So we have Level, upgrade-level, and then Tier(which is also a level). But at least no keywords with this feature. :) Sometimes I worry about this game ever going mainstream.
Anyway.it seems convoluted but I guess the whole Tier system is the cause of this. And I am sure the Tier system is as it is, in order to get a workable progression of characters in this game, where power can not scale up in a simple linear fashion.
I think I can make a few of my own calculations now when it comes to damage and duration, thanks. :)
I am still a bit confused abouts stacks though.
If it reads "Freedom 15" that means a stack of 15, right? And this stack is matched against someone else effectpower that tries to reduce this stack to zero so that his Immobilize will take effect? Rather then the "15" indicating a certain duration or Strength? Or are there situations that are less "on/off" where the stack-height indicates Strength?
Though I assume each stack does have a duration in itself, do that it runs out.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I tried one of the lesser tokens of Dodging on myself.
With 3 matched armor Keywords I get the same results though, as when I am not wearing anything.
8,9 seconds duration and +20 to Reflex. Shouldn't this be less when I am wearing my armor?
What do you get when wearing wrong armor?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think what makes the formula confusing is the "start with a number(level) then *subtract* another number first(3) and then add another number again(upgrade level) to get it back higher, and then multiply the outcome with 1.4
Not quite. If you're dealing with expendables/consumables you multiply the number of matched keywords by 1.4 (and round down) to get Effect Power. Attacks don't use the 1.4 multiplier. You then subtract the number of matched armor keywords.
If it reads "Freedom 15" that means a stack of 15, right? And this stack is matched against someone else effectpower that tries to reduce this stack to zero so that his Immobilize will take effect? Rather then the "15" indicating a certain duration or Strength? Or are there situations that are less "on/off" where the stack-height indicates Strength?
If you put Freedom 15 on yourself with a token (no Effect Power) and have 2 matched keywords on armor then you should start with 20% less stacks. 15*0.8=12 stacks to start. There's no way to see how many stacks of Freedom you currently have though.
In your dodging example it's the duration that's affected (2 rounds) by the Effect Power minus Effect Protection. The +20 reflex (40 with opportunity) shouldn't scale afaik.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Per my discovery and mea culpa on the Goblinworks boards, consumables are, indeed, currently bugged as Spitfire suggests. You won't see any improvement until +4 or +5 (and then, significantly less improvement than they're supposed to have).
This should be fixed for T1 items in the EE3 patch, with the fix for T2 and T3 coming hopefully shortly thereafter. But until the EE3 patch, you're well advised to hold onto your consumables of higher than +0.
(Tokens are always +0, but Greater Tokens should count as if they're matching 3 keywords... however, they'll act like they're matching 0 until the full fix.)
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Per my discovery and mea culpa on the Goblinworks boards, consumables are, indeed, currently bugged as Spitfire suggests. You won't see any improvement until +4 or +5 (and then, significantly less improvement than they're supposed to have).
This should be fixed for T1 items in the EE3 patch, with the fix for T2 and T3 coming hopefully shortly thereafter. But until the EE3 patch, you're well advised to hold onto your consumables of higher than +0.
(Tokens are always +0, but Greater Tokens should count as if they're matching 3 keywords... however, they'll act like they're matching 0 until the full fix.)
That still doesn't address the issue of the 4.5 second timer. I time it at about 4.5 seconds even with no armor on. But one step at a time!
I'm just glad we can start using our +X T1 goodies again in 10 days or so :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The too fast timers are a separate problem that may have gotten fixed for the next patch as well. Apparently a disagreement between two parts of the code cropped up recently and was causing most effects to expend their timers much faster than intended.
This one is pretty funny. I have EF on a 9 second timer when I am running cross country. EF should last 10 seconds. Half the time the buff drops before it is recast, the other half of the time it is still up.
I just thought GW hired some ex Microsoft programmers, and was thus using Microsoft time for their rounds.
All hail the Goat!
The black goat of thousand bugs!
Not quite a thousand, but this is probably my 3rd or 4th "Good catch." :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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sspitfire, could you check if Travel Domain is working as it should for me?:D
I think it is supposed to give a 5% speed buff, that is not dependent I hope on Edef and keywords and stuff like that?
After some testing I am getting about half of that. It *does* something but not enough. Funny thing though is that it does seem to stack with the 2% from the Archer Armor Feat now: my speed definately goes up a bit further when I have both slotted. (I clocked them running the same straight line everytime with a stopwatch).
sspitfire, could you check if Travel Domain is working as it should for me?:D
I think it is supposed to give a 5% speed buff, that is not dependent I hope on Edef and keywords and stuff like that?
After some testing I am getting about half of that. It *does* something but not enough. Funny thing though is that it does seem to stack with the 2% from the Archer Armor Feat now: my speed definately goes up a bit further when I have both slotted. (I clocked them running the same straight line everytime with a stopwatch).
Sounds like you are doing excellent work, Tynacle. Keep it up :)
Are you running on flat ground the whole time? And how long is the distance, roughly?