Are enchanted Skill Boost items also Masterwork Tools?

[Doomed Hero]

In order to enchant something the base item has to be masterwork. Generally speaking it also has to have something to do with the skill being boosted. (Boots of Elvenkind giving stealth bonuses by helping the wearer move quietly, for example)

A specially crafted item designed to facilitate a certain task sounds an awful lot like a Masterwork Tool to me.

So, would/could the item being enchanted also be a masterwork tool?

Since masterwork tools grant Circumstance bonuses and enchantments grant Competence bonuses, they stack, which means pretty much all listed skill-boosting items could grant a bonus two higher than listed for an extra 50 gold tacked onto the cost.

Am I missing anything here?

[Gauss]

The magic item section seems to gloss over the extra fees for Masterwork non-armor/weapons. I would say that if you are trying to benefit from the Masterwork bonus of the tool itself then you should pay the extra amount.

[Vrischika111]

I'd say it does not stack.

like for a MW weapon, giving a +1 to hit : it's mentioned that the magical +1 enhancement does not stack with the +1 MW bonus

[Doomed Hero]

Vrischika111 wrote:

I'd say it does not stack.

like for a MW weapon, giving a +1 to hit : it's mentioned that the magical +1 enhancement does not stack with the +1 MW bonus

That's because those are the same bonus. (masterwork weapons also grant enhancement bonuses)

Tools and skill boost items grand different bonuses which specifically do stack.

[Doomed Hero]

Gauss wrote:

The magic item section seems to gloss over the extra fees for Masterwork non-armor/weapons. I would say that if you are trying to benefit from the Masterwork bonus of the tool itself then you should pay the extra amount.

I was wondering about that. Except for weapon and armor enchantments, all magic items include the cost of the base item in the cost of the finished magic item.

That implies to me that the cost of the masterwork item is rolled in with the base cost of the magic item. It isn't really mentioned anywhere though, and the items don't grant the bonus a masterwork tool does.

because of that i agree that if you want to get the additional equipment bonus, another 50 gp should be spent.

[Gauss]

Vrischika111, Doomed Hero is correct, these are different bonuses (competence vs circumstance) while Masterwork is enhancement which is the same as a magical +1 bonus.

[Wheldrake]

Nowhere in the rules does it mention adding a masterwork tool bonus to the bonus of miscelaneous magic items. Sounds like pure cheese to me.

Clever cheese, though.

[Gauss]

Wheldrake, there is no reason for someone to give up a +2 circumstance bonus to gain a +5 competence bonus if they are willing to pay for both sets of bonuses. That is a basic element to the game and is not cheese.

Unless you consider someone having Masterwork Lock picking tools (+2 circumstance bonus) and Ring of Maniacal Devices (+5 competence to Disable Device) be cheesy.

[Artanthos]

Not all enchanted items granting a bonus to skills could even be remotely described as a tool.

Would you rule an individual receiving a bonus from an ioun stone could not also benefit from a masterwork tool?

[Saldiven]

IMHO, if the rules for the item in question do not state that it either is or counts as a Masterwork Tool, then there is no reason to assume that it is one. I believe the only items that are specified must be Masterwork prior to enchantment are weapons and armor.

I just skimmed through the Magic Item Creation rules, and none of the other magic item types state that the item to be enchanted must be Masterwork Quality prior to enchantment.

Armor:

"To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value."

Weapon:

To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value.

Ring:

To create a magic ring, a character needs a heat source. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a ring or the pieces of the ring to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the ring.

Rod:

To create a magic rod, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a rod or the pieces of the rod to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the rod.

Staff:

To create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled.

Wondrous Item:

To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled.

[Diego Rossi]

RAW, they stack.
But you should consider that not all the skills have masterwork tools and that some masterwork tool work only for some aspect of the skill.

Same thing for the magical version. Often the magic item boost only a single aspect of the skill.

[boring7]

Look at it this way. If you have a magic RING that gives you a bonus to smithing called "the Ring of the Master Craftsman" and you have a masterwork hammer that is simply a masterwork hammer, why wouldn't they stack?

[Doomed Hero]

Diego Rossi wrote:

RAW, they stack.

But you should consider that not all the skills have masterwork tools and that some masterwork tool work only for some aspect of the skill.

Not true. Jason Bulmahn has stated than any skill could have a masterwork tool. He even listed expensive perfume as an example of one kind of masterwork Diplomacy tool.

Clearly Ioun stones aren't masterwork tools, but they aren't the only thing that grants skill bonuses.

[Avoron]

Expensive perfume is an example of a masterwork tool given in Ultimate Equipment.
It is also given as an example of how tools that give bonuses to skills that aren't covered by existing tools "should" have either a limited number of uses or a limited scope (for example, the perfume would help with nobles, but not with the thieves' guild).

[Doomed Hero]

Avoron wrote:

It is also given as an example of how tools that give bonuses to skills that aren't covered by existing tools "should" have either a limited number of uses or a limited scope (for example, the perfume would help with nobles, but not with the thieves' guild).

The same could be said for most of the skill boosting magic items. Boots of Elvenkind should probably only work while you are walking. They probably shouldn't help someone be sneakier while they are flying. This isn't explicitly stated, just like the rules for Masterwork Tools (at least up until the guidelines published in ultimate equipment.) Ioun stones are a special case. Who knows why or how they work.

Basically, my idea is this: Say you have a hammer. It is a masterwork tool for Craft Carpentry. You then enchant it as a +5 skill boost item. Now, when you use that hammer it gives a total bonus of +7.

My primary question was whether skill boost items like Boots of Elvenkind could be considered masterwork tools already. I was under the impression that items needed to be masterwork in order to be enchanted, but that only seems to be the case with weapons and armor.

At this point I agree that an extra 50 gold would need to be spent. To get the equipment bonus. The item creation rules don't say anything about the cost or quality of the base item before enchantment.

[Dafydd]

If you can explain to me how a tiara is able to help you train wild animals or fool magic items into thinking you are something you are not, I have to say Skill Boosting magic items are not Masterwork Tools.

That said, you can use masterwork tools WITH skill boosting items. For example, MWK thieves tools and a ring of maniacal devices (or the ring and MWK artisan tools for craft: trap making).

They are different bonuses, and thus, should stack.

[Cevah]

All the formulas calculate cost as pure magic except for MW weapons, MW armor, spell components, and the base cost of the item.

Most circumstance bonuses would be enchanted by CWI to give a competence bonus, which is priced without a MW component. So, adding MW to get the circumstance bonus is reasonable.

/cevah

[Scythia]

Dafydd wrote:

If you can explain to me how a tiara is able to help you train wild animals

The light glinting off the tiara keeps the animal's attention drawn towards your head, and thus it learns to recognize your expressions, responding to training more quickly. Especially effective when training crows. :P

Also you can tap it with a ring to create a audio signal to perform tricks, much as some people employ clickers.