Creative Director
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Yes you can.
They're highly technological, but they're still firearms. And as mentioned on page 136 of Ultimate Combat u nder "Range and Penetration"...
...this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.
It's kinda squirreled away, and we definitely SHOULD have repeated those words or words to their effect in the Technology Guide just to ensure folks knew that carried over to lasers and the like.
(Frankly... I kinda wish that whole "this does not apply to touch attacks" line was removed entirely from Deadly Aim. It doesn't really make sense to me.)
(Frankly... I kinda wish that whole "this does not apply to touch attacks" line was removed entirely from Deadly Aim. It doesn't really make sense to me.)
Presumably its there for 2 reasons. One mundante touch weapons are not particularly precise. Can you imagine taking deadly aim with an alchemist fire? Even with a ray spell, its hard to imagine taking the kind of precise aim one does with an actual ranged weapon like a bow or crossbow.
The second reason is one of balance. Given the overwhelmingly low touch ac most things have by mid levels, the trade off of a penalty to attack is more or less meaningless as compared to things that target full ac.
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Creative Director
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Thanks! I kinda thought it really only ment spells touch attacks anyways. It doesn't really make sense that you couldn't pinpointing a foe's weak spot with a laser rifle.
Exactly. Nor does it make sense that you couldn't pinpoint a foe's week spot with a scorching ray, which is more or less the exact same thing a a laser... but you play with the rules you have, not the rules you want, I guess...
...unless your'e in a position to houserule things! MWA HA HA!
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Creative Director
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(Frankly... I kinda wish that whole "this does not apply to touch attacks" line was removed entirely from Deadly Aim. It doesn't really make sense to me.)
Presumably its there for 2 reasons. One mundante touch weapons are not particularly precise. Can you imagine taking deadly aim with an alchemist fire? Even with a ray spell, its hard to imagine taking the kind of precise aim one does with an actual ranged weapon like a bow or crossbow.
The second reason is one of balance. Given the overwhelmingly low touch ac most things have by mid levels, the trade off of a penalty to attack is more or less meaningless as compared to things that target full ac.
Alchemist fire is a splash weapon, and THAT should be something that doesn't get Deadly Aim benefits, I agree.
But I can easily imagine someone aiming in a deadly manner with a scorching ray, disintegrate, searing light, ray of frost, or any ranged touch spell.
I'd be all for houseruling that "Ranged Touch Attack Spells that deal damage may benefit from Deadly Aim", but not touch attacks that deal no damage or are splash touch attacks.
However, none of my players have really cared about it so meh. If it came up I'd rule it that way.
(Frankly... I kinda wish that whole "this does not apply to touch attacks" line was removed entirely from Deadly Aim. It doesn't really make sense to me.)
Presumably its there for 2 reasons. One mundante touch weapons are not particularly precise. Can you imagine taking deadly aim with an alchemist fire? Even with a ray spell, its hard to imagine taking the kind of precise aim one does with an actual ranged weapon like a bow or crossbow.
The second reason is one of balance. Given the overwhelmingly low touch ac most things have by mid levels, the trade off of a penalty to attack is more or less meaningless as compared to things that target full ac.
Alchemist fire is a splash weapon, and THAT should be something that doesn't get Deadly Aim benefits, I agree.
But I can easily imagine someone aiming in a deadly manner with a scorching ray, disintegrate, searing light, ray of frost, or any ranged touch spell.
Bold mine.
That is very dangerous because it includes things like enervation and ray of enfeeblement.|
Creative Director
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(Frankly... I kinda wish that whole "this does not apply to touch attacks" line was removed entirely from Deadly Aim. It doesn't really make sense to me.)
Presumably its there for 2 reasons. One mundante touch weapons are not particularly precise. Can you imagine taking deadly aim with an alchemist fire? Even with a ray spell, its hard to imagine taking the kind of precise aim one does with an actual ranged weapon like a bow or crossbow.
The second reason is one of balance. Given the overwhelmingly low touch ac most things have by mid levels, the trade off of a penalty to attack is more or less meaningless as compared to things that target full ac.
Alchemist fire is a splash weapon, and THAT should be something that doesn't get Deadly Aim benefits, I agree.
But I can easily imagine someone aiming in a deadly manner with a scorching ray, disintegrate, searing light, ray of frost, or any ranged touch spell.
Bold mine.
That is very dangerous because it includes things like enervation and ray of enfeeblement.
Not dangerous at all, because enervation and ray of enfeeblement don't do hit point damage, and thus would only benefit from the +1 on the attack roll.
Since technological firearms follow all of the rules for regular firearms, I have a few questions.
1. Are the autograpnel and dart gun touch attacks within the first range increment? It seems like they would, but I wanted to double check.
2. Would someone with deflect arrows be able to deflect the attacks of tech weapons? How would snatch arrows interact with them?
Thanks.
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Creative Director
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Since technological firearms follow all of the rules for regular firearms, I have a few questions.
1. Are the autograpnel and dart gun touch attacks within the first range increment? It seems like they would, but I wanted to double check.
2. Would someone with deflect arrows be able to deflect the attacks of tech weapons? How would snatch arrows interact with them?
Thanks.
1) Nope; they're not touch attacks. They have to penetrate armor to do their thing.
1) Nope. That myth was busted. Deflect arrows and snatch arrows shouldn't do much at all against lasers. I suppose I could see it working against lower velocity things like dart guns or autograpnels... but that's a GM call.
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I guess the reason why Deadly Aim was originally blocked from working with touch attacks is that those are almost guaranteed hits, and are usually balanced vs regular attacks by having lower damage (compare energy and physical attacks for the Kineticist). Thus, Deadly Aim would presumably have a much greater effect on touch attacks (low impact of the penalty, high impact of the damage bonus) than on regular attacks.
Deadly Aim on Mystic Bolts would single-handedly make that fighting style viable. It might even redeem Flurry of Blasts.
Thank you, Catharsis, for bringing up this thread. I had had a similar question one week ago, but searched the Rules forum rather than the Iron Gods forum and did not find the answer there. Instead, I posted my own question, Deadly Aim and Technological Beam Weapons. In the rules-as-written technological firearms don't work with Deadly Aim--the lines that James Jacob quoted are in the Early Fireams and Advanced Firearms paragraphs--the intent in the Iron Gods adventure path is that Deadly Aim works not only with technological firearms but also with technological beam weapons built into robots (see the robot on page 52 of Lords of Rust. Yes, that robot).
Frankly... I kinda wish that whole "this does not apply to touch attacks" line was removed entirely from Deadly Aim. It doesn't really make sense to me.
That is the solution I settled on. I wrote my own correction to Deadly Aim. I followed the example of Power Attack where different kinds of weapons could get better or worse bonuses, so technological beam weapons receive only half the bonus damage from Deadly Aim.
I guess the reason why Deadly Aim was originally blocked from working with touch attacks is that those are almost guaranteed hits, and are usually balanced vs regular attacks by having lower damage (compare energy and physical attacks for the Kineticist). Thus, Deadly Aim would presumably have a much greater effect on touch attacks (low impact of the penalty, high impact of the damage bonus) than on regular attacks.
Deadly Aim on Mystic Bolts would single-handedly make that fighting style viable. It might even redeem Flurry of Blasts.
Remember, Deadly Aim is in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. It did not take new classes such as Gunslinger or Kineticist into account, not even Magus, who has a higher BAB than the wizard, so is better at ranged touch attacks with spells.
Instead, I think that it was the caster/martial dichotomy. Spells already scaled autpmatically by level; for example, Scorching Ray provides one additional ray for every 4 levels beyond 3rd level. Ranged weapons scale only by expensive masterwork and enchantment improvements not available in every setting; instead, a fighter or ranger learns feats to become better with his chosen weapons. Since none of the Core Rulebook ranged weapons, except splash weapons, were touch attacks and all of the spells were touch attacks, having no bonus for touch attacks would stop the spellcasters from using the Deadly Aim feat meant only for martial characters.
And years later Paizo invented more hybrid classes, such as Magus and Bloodrager, and more hybrid weapons, such as pistols and laser rifles, and that simple gap between spellcasters with touch attacks and martials without touch attacks developed a gigantic overlap.
Nevertheless, the math matters. When a gunslinger has a +5 BAB at 5th level while a wizard has a +2 BAB, the -2 penalty for Deadly Aim still gives the gunslinger a better chance to hit than a wizard. The way touch AC scales with level was designed with the wizard's 1/2 BAB progression in mind. Hence, a gunslinger with full BAB or a magus with 3/4 BAB (and more reason to have been built with a high Dexterity) has an advantage over the wizard. The gunslinger and magus were designed so that advantage was factored into the power level of the class. But put a technological firearm into the hands of an archer ranger with Exotic Weapon Proficiency(firearm), and the strength of Deadly Aim is more than intended.
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I would allow firearms to use deadly aim normally, including energy weapons. Their damage output really isn't that high, and between hardness and energy resistances and immunities, they really aren't out of control.
Also, in this AP, you want the technological weapons to be as good or better than traditional weaponry.
The Technic League is supposed to consist of wizards and magi hogging all the tech for themselves. Now consider: are laser pistols actually anything for a magus to get excited about, in terms of damage output? I think they need all the help they can get.