Targeting system ruining gamplay experience

[Pyronous Rath]

In my travels I happen upon a goblin shaman and an alpha wolf. I get maximum spell distance away and start blasting the goblin shaman by the time he is down the alpha wolf has closed the distance between us. I attempt to target the alpha wolf instead I toggle through 4 resource nodes and die. This sort of thing where clumsy targeting gets my char killed is the top reason for my character dying. The second reason is that I find myself spamming a spell to make sure the server knows I keyed the spell as when I wait for the animation to end then press the key once there is often no effect. All of this combined with being rooted in place often still casting a spell at a dead enemy makes this barley playable. Now I hate complaining without giving any solutions but since I have no clue why there is so much inconsistency with keys and server side actions im just going to bring it to your attention incase you don't know. As for the rooting in place wouldn't it make more sense to allow fluid movement but have movement interrupt casting?

[Ryan Dancey]

Removing nodes from the targeting queue has been in the list of "to do's" for the programmers to fix for a while. It will be done.

Doing something to help visualize the queue itself and manage the actions therein is also something we are discussing.

I have seen the effect you mention of making an attack against a dead monster myself. I think it is because the system is evaluating the target to see if it is going to bleed out like a player-character, and if an attack is made before that determination is complete the attack will procede. There is some kind of timing thing we need to investigate there, for sure.

By the way, in your example, you don't have to tab target the wolf. As soon as the Shaman dies, you will autotarget the next thing that hits you (the wolf).

[Hobson Fiffledown]

Yep, almost all deaths for me have been feat queue and targeting issue based. Glad to hear fixes are still near the top of the list. I'm still not switched to broadband yet, so I'm low stress on things that my end could be contributing to.

By the way, in the example example, the solution is letting something close to melee and hit you first instead of getting one or two spells/ranged attacks in on it. It is a targeting solution, but not a good one.

I also dream of the day that I can get in the first melee attack with a mob.

[Tyncale]

Thanks Ryan. Autotarget helps a lot, but a ranged character will want to hit(and thus target) a mob that is running towards him before the mob reaches him, and a Wolf will not activate autotarget untill it is already in melee distance since they have no ranged attacks.

Especially Wolves are nasty in melee distance for a ranged character because of their stunning so I usually try to take out the wolves first that come running to me, before the bandits, when I aggro a mixed camp.

When Node-targeting is fixed, tab-targeting seems to work just fine though.

[Nihimon]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Removing nodes from the targeting queue has been in the list of "to do's" for the programmers to fix for a while. It will be done.

Please add a "Target Nearest Enemy" keybinding, in addition to the current "Target Next Enemy".

[<Kabal> Daeglin]

One of the challenges with adapting to the auto target is that, while it is consistent in how it functions, in practice it operates in two different scenarios resulting in inconsistent targeting by the player. By this, I mean for example:

Scenario One
- Player (ranged attack) fighting two goblin scouts (ranged attackers).
- Player initiated fight by manual tab target.
- Aggros both. They return fire.
- Player kills one, second goblin is auto targeted and combat concludes with two dead goblins

Scenario Two
- Player (ranged attack) fighting two goblins warriors (melee attackers).
- Player initiated fight by manual tab target.
- Aggros both. They attempt to close, prompting opportunity, should be easy kills.
- Player kills one, waits for auto target to target second goblin but it doesn't because goblin has not actually attacked yet. Player shrugs, hits tab to target it and gets... a node. Goblin has closed and attacks, but by this point the player is panic smashing tab target cycling through targetable objects, goes past goblin, keeps key mashing.
- Player dies.

There are many variations of scenario two, most common being large group of attackers and Player trying to down them in specific kill order.

The frustrating part of the challenge is when one adapts and develops reflexes for scenario two, then finds himself back in scenario one, he will work against the auto target and lose his target.

I don't have a solution, it's simply one of the vagrancies of auto target that forces me to fight against conditioned combat reflexes.

Edit: argh long post results in easy ninja subjecting

[Tyncale]

Nihimon wrote:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Removing nodes from the targeting queue has been in the list of "to do's" for the programmers to fix for a while. It will be done.

Please add a "Target Nearest Enemy" keybinding, in addition to the current "Target Next Enemy".

Absolutely.

Standard MMO options:

Target Nearest Enemy;
Cycle Enemy Targets(or Target next Enemy);
Targets Nearest NPC (friendlies);
Cycle NPC's (friendlies):
Toggle last two targets;
Toggle between target and myself;

Here is what the Options --> Keys ---> Targeting UI looks like of a game that has 15 years behind its teeth and 21 expansions....

we like lots of options!

Those are just the options for Targeting. There are 18 more Categories in the Keys section....

The "Extended Targets" window is a relatively late addition to Everquest. This will list every mob in a window, that has made it to your aggro list(is angry with you). You can set a few options for that window itself too, choosing how those targets are listed.

In PFO this could mean, every player that is hitting you for instance. One can hope...

[Pyronous Rath]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Removing nodes from the targeting queue has been in the list of "to do's" for the programmers to fix for a while. It will be done.

Doing something to help visualize the queue itself and manage the actions therein is also something we are discussing.

I have seen the effect you mention of making an attack against a dead monster myself. I think it is because the system is evaluating the target to see if it is going to bleed out like a player-character, and if an attack is made before that determination is complete the attack will procede. There is some kind of timing thing we need to investigate there, for sure.

By the way, in your example, you don't have to tab target the wolf. As soon as the Shaman dies, you will autotarget the next thing that hits you (the wolf).

Thanks Ryan sounds like you folks have most of that in the works.

[Pyronous Rath]

Nihimon wrote:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Removing nodes from the targeting queue has been in the list of "to do's" for the programmers to fix for a while. It will be done.

Please add a "Target Nearest Enemy" keybinding, in addition to the current "Target Next Enemy".

Yeah a target nearest would be awsome.

[Neadenil Edam]

The two most annoying issues at present are tab targeting nodes and auto targeting your wizard if they accidentally get you in an area effect.

The second is quite dangerous as a common technique when facing multiple interrupting archers is to spam something fast like half-draw and let the auto target keep moving you to the next enemy. If your wizard gets inthe target queue they are likely to die. (one temporary fix for this would be have the name of your current target always visible)

[KarlBob]

While we're on the subject of firing while immobile, I just noticed something very helpful last night. When you're firing ranged attacks, and therefore immobile, the keyboard doesn't allow you to rotate. The part I just noticed is that using the mouse, you can rotate the camera while the character stays pointed in the same direction. Arrows don't seem to be directional (meaning a character can apparently fire over his or her shoulder). I don't know whether most spells rely on the facing of the wizard's body, or the direction to the target.

[Neadenil Edam]

KarlBob wrote:

While we're on the subject of firing while immobile, I just noticed something very helpful last night. When you're firing ranged attacks, and therefore immobile, the keyboard doesn't allow you to rotate. The part I just noticed is that using the mouse, you can rotate the camera while the character stays pointed in the same direction. Arrows don't seem to be directional (meaning a character can apparently fire over his or her shoulder). I don't know whether most spells rely on the facing of the wizard's body, or the direction to the target.

Pretty sure its direction of the target.

If your characters body rotated to face the target as you cast/fired it would reduce the friendly return fire issue a lot as you could see who you are shooting at.

[KarlBob]

Neadenil Edam wrote:

KarlBob wrote:

While we're on the subject of firing while immobile, I just noticed something very helpful last night. When you're firing ranged attacks, and therefore immobile, the keyboard doesn't allow you to rotate. The part I just noticed is that using the mouse, you can rotate the camera while the character stays pointed in the same direction. Arrows don't seem to be directional (meaning a character can apparently fire over his or her shoulder). I don't know whether most spells rely on the facing of the wizard's body, or the direction to the target.

Pretty sure its direction of the target.

If your characters body rotated to face the target as you cast/fired it would reduce the friendly return fire issue a lot as you could see who you are shooting at.

Spinning the camera with the mouse isn't a total fix, but it helps.

[Gaskon]

I must be the only person that actually likes the current attack queue system.

I really like the way I can pre-select an attack, and have it queued up to go off as soon as I get into range.
Please don't change that aspect of the queue.

However, anything that provides more combat-related information to the player will be greatly appreciated.

I like the way PFO combat feels slower than many MMOs I have tried. I like pausing to consider my next attack while managing stamina. It is a nice change from the button mashing of other games, and I wonder if adjusting to a slower pace might explain some of the concerns about "clunky" combat. If you find yourself "mashing buttons" in combat, try slowing it down, and let each attack resolve before making your next action. Hitting the buttons faster often leads to a cycle of mistakes and mistargets and is counterproductive.

With longbow exploit, I can usually aggro 4 goblins or anything else that I can one shot with opportunity, and kill 3 before they hit melee range. The limiter that stops me from killing the 4th is stamina regen, not ability to target them or animation speed.

[Neadenil Edam]

Gaskon wrote:

With longbow exploit, I can usually aggro 4 goblins or anything else that I can one shot with opportunity, and kill 3 before they hit melee range. The limiter that stops me from killing the 4th is stamina regen, not ability to target them or animation speed.

Making the first shot (when they have no opportunity yet) a half draw helps with stamina :D

[Gaskon]

Neadenil Edam wrote:

Making the first shot (when they have no opportunity yet) a half draw helps with stamina :D

Yes, typically overdraw + half draw kills the first one to start the battle, then exploit the next two, then switch to melee weapon as stam regens.

[Neadenil Edam]

Gaskon wrote:

Neadenil Edam wrote:

Making the first shot (when they have no opportunity yet) a half draw helps with stamina :D

Yes, typically overdraw + half draw kills the first one to start the battle, then exploit the next two, then switch to melee weapon as stam regens.

In the end for 4 low levels like gobbo its easier to whack them with an AoE staff spell like wilting surge. Or just run up and thow a Wraith Cry at them.

Longbow however comes into its own with tougher mobs.

[Illililili]

<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:

One of the challenges with adapting to the auto target is that, while it is consistent in how it functions, in practice it operates in two different scenarios resulting in inconsistent targeting by the player. By this, I mean for example:

Scenario One
- Player (ranged attack) fighting two goblin scouts (ranged attackers).
- Player initiated fight by manual tab target.
- Aggros both. They return fire.
- Player kills one, second goblin is auto targeted and combat concludes with two dead goblins

Scenario Two
- Player (ranged attack) fighting two goblins warriors (melee attackers).
- Player initiated fight by manual tab target.
- Aggros both. They attempt to close, prompting opportunity, should be easy kills.
- Player kills one, waits for auto target to target second goblin but it doesn't because goblin has not actually attacked yet. Player shrugs, hits tab to target it and gets... a node. Goblin has closed and attacks, but by this point the player is panic smashing tab target cycling through targetable objects, goes past goblin, keeps key mashing.
- Player dies.

There are many variations of scenario two, most common being large group of attackers and Player trying to down them in specific kill order.

The frustrating part of the challenge is when one adapts and develops reflexes for scenario two, then finds himself back in scenario one, he will work against the auto target and lose his target.

I don't have a solution, it's simply one of the vagrancies of auto target that forces me to fight against conditioned combat reflexes.

Edit: argh long post results in easy ninja subjecting

You missed my favorite, scenario 3 (playing a Cleric):

You are fighting in a group, tank pulls, you stand on tank so he is in heal range and you and the dps start blasting mobs. Tank reaches half life, so you click on tank's hp bar at top of screen then press heal button. Tank then get hit by your previously queued blast spell and dies.

This works in your favor when fighting at range, as you can blast, queue up another blast, first mob drops, tab to next mob, queued spell hits next mob (but spell graphic is still showing you blasting dead mob).

However, any time you change targets the queue should be reset. Current method needs an overhaul.

Hilarious.

[Pyronous Rath]

This is why I suggested a dual targeting system where you always have two targets a friendly blue target that is defaulted to target you and a hostile red target that defaults to closest agressed. The blue target can never be a recipient of hostile type spells. Targetin group members are always the blue target.