Leading an organisation and the Leadership feat

[Caïen]

Is the Leadership feat needed to be the leader of an organisation or group?

I believe it is not the case, but at what point should one consider a group so important in size and structure that the leader needs the Leadership feat?

[Dafydd]

While it is not needed, Leadership is never a bad feat for a leader.

How good it is depends on what the organization is like.

A temple of a lawful god (ie a well established, highly defined hierarchy) would not need it as much as a thieves guild or a democratic type of organization. Both of these options require a large supporter base, one that can be covered mostly or partly with leadership followers.

[Lathiira]

You can run an organization just fine without Leadership. You need to be able to organize people and get them to do what you want. You also need to be able to delegate (when your group gets too large for you to oversee everything yourself) and to plan ahead. Charisma, specifically as Diplomacy (to convince people to do what you want) or Intimidate (the other way) are probably more necessary, plus Sense Motive (in case you've got less than scrupulous/honorable subordinates) or occasionally Bluff. Other skills might be useful depending on the organization; a guild of smiths might require a specific Craft skill, for example. Where Leadership is likely most useful is when the organization gets too big to manage alone. Then, you have a cohort as your right-hand man and your followers can be key lieutenants in the group, all loyal to you and willing to do what you want.

[boring7]

Leadership is kind of fluid. A hard-nosed rules-lawyer could say you can't have loyal minions following your orders unless you took the leadership feat, but you can also just HIRE minions whose loyalty will be passable by simply using the Ultimate Campaign rules. Further, both those rule sets mention prominently that a GM doesn't have to allow either.

Further, if the GM doesn't feel like dealing with hard rules because they're too restrictive (or however s/he phrases it) then you can be a leader without leadership just because. I mean, "hero of Scynfurth, savior of the town and married into lordship" should have the loyalty of the people no matter WHAT feats he took.

As my rule of thumb, I assume that if you want anyone coming with you on adventures you need leadership, if you want anyone working for you out of loyalty and love instead of economic incentive you need leadership or some kind of plot elements, and if you just want an organization of people you just need to hire the right people, make a few skill checks every so often to make sure they're walking the straight and narrow and not skimming, and never expect more than what YOU would do for money if you were the same class/level as them.

And even then it's loose. If the gang rescues an NPC from certain death he might stick with them for a while. At the very least until they get back to civilization.

[Chemlak]

See also: the downtime rules. These cover how to create organisations that players control/own, and has rules on how to use followers granted by the leadership feat in that system.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The way I run it is that if you are a leader of an organization you gain followers as appropriate to your situation. They obey you when it comes doing their job, but nothing else. So if your followers are soldiers they will fight for you, but don’t do what you want when they are not on duty. Also since they are essentially being paid to be loyal they may desert if the danger is too much, and can also easily be bribed or bought off.

Leadership on the other hand gives you a group of loyal followers who will remain loyal no matter what. If your actions change your leadership score you may have some desertion but those that remain are still loyal. They will willingly follow you into dangerous situations, and will not betray you.

I also allow both to be used simultaneously. A character with leadership who is also a leader of an organization has all the followers his position would normally have, and has a group of loyal followers who may or may not be part of the organization. If they are part of the organization they still remain loyal even if you lose your position.