| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Upgradable: This ability grants the bonded creature the ability to more easily increase the non-mythic magical power of the legendary item. If the base magic item has a version with a higher bonus or greater version (such as a +1longsword, a +2 light steel shield, a cloak of protection +3, an amulet of might fists +4, or a minor ring of inner fortitude), the bonded creature can improve it by performing a special ritual. She must spend a number of gold pieces equal to half the difference between the cost of the legendary item's current, non-mythic base item and the greater version she wishes to upgrade the item into. For example, she would pay 3,000 gp to upgrade a +1 longsword into a +2 longsword. This ritual takes 8 hours. When it's completed, the bonded creature transmutes the item's base version into the desired version. When upgraded in this fashion, the legendary item retains all legendary item abilities it had before the transmutation.
Does this ability allow you to take weapon special abilities such as "speed" or "flaming"?
Anyone?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unless I'm very much mistaken, you should still be able to enchant/upgrade your legendary item through the regular process. Upgradable is just faster/easier (possibly cheaper up front as well) . And it lets martials do their own upgrades
I'll bump this because it is a big disagreement within our game and I would like to resolve it once and for all
happy boxing day!
I started a thread about this exact topic some time ago I the Wrath of the Righteous boards. The consensus was that the intent of the ability was to be able to upgrade it with any possible upgrades. Just as you suspected, adding keen or speed.
I had this question because I want to take this for my armor and I want to add many different things.
I believe this was what was intended with the ability though it was poorly spelled out.
What's the disagreement, exactly?
one of our players believes that he can put any ability (I.E. speed and such) and the GM believes that he can only upgrade it with +'s (or from flaming to flaming burst). Anyway I think we should FAQ this, alot of people have different opinions on the subject and it would be nice to have a definitive answer from the developers, being a myhtic ability however I dont think it will be a priority though :( Our GM ruled that it would work how he though it should, meaning that he can only apply +'s and the player in question was VERY unhappy with this.
On a related note: a holy avenger is definitely a greater version of a cold iron sword. Could you upgrade a +1 cold iron sword into that?
On a related note: a holy avenger is definitely a greater version of a cold iron sword. Could you upgrade a +1 cold iron sword into that?That's a GM's call, You're not going to be saving that much.
Not worried about the money. It was a question related to the topic at hand that just came to mind, that's all.
From the way I've read it, Mythic Upgradable Legendary Items work pretty much like normal magic items, except you don't need someone with craft magical arms and armor to make them - you just spend the gold and some time and it happens.
Same here.
From the way I've read it, Mythic Upgradable Legendary Items work pretty much like normal magic items, except you don't need someone with craft magical arms and armor to make them - you just spend the gold and some time and it happens.
But if that was the case why wouldn't they just say:
You are treated as having the necessary magical crafting feat for your legendary item (craft wondrous item, craft wand, craft rod etc.) and it only takes 8 hours and half the price.Why go through the examples of what you can upgrade when they don't even do that with the actual feat? The wording and the examples that are given lead me to believe it was not intended to be like craft wondrous item (for example) and let you just keep piling on abilities. Again, my only argument is that the wording is different from other abilities who emulate item creation feats. For example the scarred witch doctor's ability:
At 5th level, the scarred witch doctor gains the ability to add magical abilities to her mask as if she had the Craft Wondrous Item feat.
They don't give examples like upgrading a minor ring of inner fortitude.
bumping again
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just because they had it worded better in another location doesn't mean that's not whwhat they intended here.
Look at the armor and the sword pictures in the legendary item section of mythic adventures. The sword drips with acid and the armor has wings. I don't know of a +1 option for armor to add wings. This tells me that they intended there to be many ways to customize your legendary item.
I want to make the most incredible suit of armor ever, and I think legendary armor is the way to do it.
Just because they had it worded better in another location doesn't mean that's not whwhat they intended here.
Having something worded differently means it's different, what you are saying is akin to saying: spellcasting is worded differently in the wizard class than in the sorcerer class but it does not mean it's different.
Look at the armor and the sword pictures in the legendary item section of mythic adventures. The sword drips with acid and the armor has wings. I don't know of a +1 option for armor to add wings. This tells me that they intended there to be many ways to customize your legendary item.
I want to make the most incredible suit of armor ever, and I think legendary armor is the way to do it.
How is that even an argument? The drawings might have nothing to do with the upgradable ability, it might just be to show the difference between a legendary item and a non legendary item, and anyways since when are we going on images to describe an ability?
As I have stated above, I believe that if they wanted it to be like an item creation feat they would have listed the feat you need to refer to, but they didn't, so obviously they meant it to be different
here is another example:
Crafting Mastery (Ex): You can craft any magic item as if you had the necessary item creation feats. If you actually have the item creation feat needed for a magic item you're crafting, whenever you attempt a skill check to create that item, roll twice and use the higher result, and you make twice as much progress on the item for any time spent. This ability does not reduce the item's cost or any other requirements.
Why don't they go into detail about what you can craft and give examples? Why do they do it for the upgradable ability ONLY?
The wording is different because it gives a mechanically different effect: this legendary ability really -- really -- only gives a player the option to upgrade enhancement bonuses and particular special abilities that have clear progressions. It might not seem like a lot, or that it's very good... It's not, except under certain circumstances, e.g.
Your campaign is paced differently than most: you know there will be a long haul before you can get abilities crafted into your item (maybe magic is limited, or you're in the abyss fighting for your life everyday, or you know a huge fight is coming and that step from +2 to +3 makes the difference between overcoming DR or not)
You enjoy the thematic nature of abilities more than their decisive power in the endgame... Possibly, you loathe the idea of handing your precious item to a strange caster to enchant, but would still like to advance existing abilities as you level.
Ultimately, it saves a huge amount of time, and either a feat (if they would have gotten crafting only for this item), or money (if the plan was to upgrade specific abilities through ye olde crafter down the block)
The example of the images was in direct opposition of the example of it not working the same because it is worded differently. There are plenty of examples of things being the same but worded differently. I do not think that is a good argument.
I feel the ability is there to make the item customizable. Letting the characters legendary item diredirectly reflect the characters personality.
The line 'or a greater version' should not be over looked here. That line tells us the ability is talking about more than adding an item up to a +5. Adding abilities like fortification and keen are options too. Yet also options that are not + equivalents. Such as determination and energy resistances.
|
Based on other abilities in the mythic book, I'm inclined to err on the side of availability. I don't see a single item being upgradeable for the same cost -in both money and time- as it would take to get someone with craft magic arms and armor to do it as being out of balance.
A player is only going to have one mythic item at a time, and letting them upgrade it with standard magical item upgrades is not going to break anything at all.
In theory, I agree whole heartedly with the argument that the upgradable property should apply to all enhancements and is not game breaking. However, that would be a house rule, which is a different matter than directly addressing the rules in the Rules Questions forum. As written, the rules are more limiting than most other mythic abilities. Is this a great thing? Maybe, maybe not. But them's the breaks.
|
|
In theory, I agree whole heartedly with the argument that the upgradable property should apply to all enhancements and is not game breaking. However, that would be a house rule, which is a different matter than directly addressing the rules in the Rules Questions forum. As written, the rules are more limiting than most other mythic abilities. Is this a great thing? Maybe, maybe not. But them's the breaks.
So there's a Paizo ruling or water-tight proof that legendary items are not upgradeable? Please link and/or show us!
If this question intrigues you as it does me, please FAQ my original post so that we might eventually have dev's rule on this. thx but by all means continue the discussion.
Actually, you can improve an item into a named version.
At least it was ruled you could in PFS, which has it's own set of funky rules.
However, I can see a progression of Cold Iron Longsword->+1 cold iron longsword -> +2 cold iron longsword -> Holy Avenger. Probably a GM decision in the end, which does not sound likely in this case.
This is expressly detailed in ultimate campaign. Page 180 something I believe.
This is another example of why I believe the upgradeable ability functions the way I do. You should be able to upgrade it to anytbing you could with the appropriate feat.
If the base magic item has a version with a higher bonus or greater version (such as a +1 longsword, a +2 light steel shield, a cloak of protection +3, an amulet of might fists +4, or a minor ring of inner fortitude), the bonded creature can improve it by performing a special ritual.
I don't think you're going to get a FAQ reply beyond the somewhat empty 'no action needed' response. This verbiage is clear and concise, much better even than the greater part of mythic ability descriptions. There is no question that it could be better, but that does not change how it is written. But as it stands, Paizo clearly states what does and does not count under this rule.
Who knows, maybe FAQing will lead to an errata.
I would argue that it could potentially be game breaking if we assume that any ring specific addition can be added to a ring (as an example).
I believe that the best way to look at it is that, as far as rings and other items go, the + value of the item in question is the only upgradable aspect.
You can turn a +1 Ring of Protection into a +2 or better, but you can't simply add "Evasion" to the ring.
That being said, weapons and armor are slightly different in that the special abilities associated with them are often priced as + upgrades.
A +1 Keen Longsword is technically a +2 weapon. In addition to that, weapons and armor are not slotted items, so the rules governing pricing are dramatically different.
In order to add Evasion to a Ring of Sustenance, you have to pay 150% of the value of a Ring of Evasion because Rings are slotted items. However, you can add flat gold piece values to armors, shields, and weapons rather then paying a marked up price for those items.
Additionally a single weapon or armor can only be a maximum of +10, and can only go up to +5 in strait up enhancement bonuses.
So while it isn't game breaking for this to work on weapons and armor, it can make, say, a staff into a spell casting NPC with an entire library of spells it can throw out there. Or be used to make a Ring of Chameleon Evasion Protection +5 Force Shield etc.
As far as RAW goes, it could easily be argued that a +1 flaming-burst keen longsword is considered a 'greater' version of a +1 longsword, as there are rules texts concerning how it would be a "+3 equivalent" weapon as for DR.
It could also be easily argued that it is not a 'greater' version.
That said, I don't believe RAI agrees with not being able to add flaming to a weapon.
Now that RAI has been brought up: Disclaimer. The following is 100% opinion.
To be completely honest I believe restricting the upgradable ability to just "+1 to +2" or "flaming to flaming burst" takes away a lot from the fact that it is a legendary item in the first place.
Often times, at least in games I've seen and played in, these weapons come with back stories attached to them, a narrative playing into the epic adventure of the player getting the weapon. Having to take your precious legendary weapon to a random NPC to get it upgraded feels like a liability if you've spent one of it's qualities on the ability to cut out the middle man in the first place.
On the other hand, I also agree with wolfwood82 in that it should be restricted to weapons and armor. Allow weapons and armor to take new magical abilities as part of the ritual, but do not allow bracers of armor to become bracers of armor+natural armor+invisibility+etc.
As far as the cost argument goes as well, it comes out in the wash with wealth by level anyways if a DM plays it correctly.
Sure the one PC got his weapon upgrades at half price, but perhaps the next quest reward awarded to the party happens to give him something cool but maybe not worth as much as the other player's rewards.
This is me personally, but I don't think I've ever seen a player get miffed or indignant by other party members getting cool(er) stuff if they received something cool for them as well.
It's kind of the same thing with crafting in my book. If left to it's own devices, for the price of a single feat and a per level tax of a skill rank magical crafting could potentially put the player crafting things tens of thousands of gold ahead of the rest of the party. Gotta keep it in line with the rest of the party somehow.
With all that in mind, perhaps a happy medium house rule:
He can do as he likes but perhaps he pays the full price of the difference rather than half when adding special abilities. This still cuts out the middleman liability of having your legendary weapon in the hands of some stranger, but removes the worry of getting ALL his weapon upgrades at half price rather than just the +1 to +2's.End opinion.
As far as RAW goes, it could easily be argued that a +1 flaming-burst keen longsword is considered a 'greater' version of a +1 longsword, as there are rules texts concerning how it would be a "+3 equivalent" weapon as for DR.
It could also be easily argued that it is not a 'greater' version.
That said, I don't believe RAI agrees with not being able to add flaming to a weapon.
Now that RAI has been brought up: Disclaimer. The following is 100% opinion.
The rules specifically state that, as far as bypassing most DR goes, the only thing that counts is the actual enhancement bonus. The only exception to this is DR/Epic which is specifically bypassed by "epic weaponry", which anything with more then +6 qualities certainly fits that description.
However, as I've mentioned earlier, the pricing system used for weapons and armor is different from slotted items such as rings and wonderous items. As a result, adding "Keen" to a +1 weapon is a greater version of that weapon, effectively making it a +2 weapon price wise. This follows the strict interpretation of the rules as written in the mythic book.
The price difference between upgrading a +1 ring of protection to a +2 is also wildly different from adding an unrelated quality such as Evasion to it. So it makes perfect sense for them to word it the way they did.