Invisibility, Stealth and creatures lacking sight for one reason or another

[Bruno Kristensen]

Hi ye mighty boards,

I have a question about a situation that is very likely to come up in my next game session, and I apologize if it has been asked a gazzillion times before.

Let us imagine a group of adventurers with invisibility spells running while infiltrating an enemy stronghold.

As per the spell, they get +20 to Stealth (or +40 if not moving), but the spell also says it doesn't silence them in any way.

How would that affect a sentry's chances of detecting them sneaking by on the other side of a door, or otherwise out of sight? My reading is, that since there's no visual detecting possible, invisibility does not benefit the party (though the door does give a good bonus).

How about if they try to sneak up on a sleeping guard and coup de grace him? He's also not using his eyes, as he is sleeping (and already taking a -10 penalty on Perception checks). My reading here is, that invisibility also doesn't provide any bonus to the party.

Thanks in advance :)

[WackyPeanut]

Hello Bruno, here's my understanding of the standard rules:

The adventurers may move up to their normal speed with a -5 to their stealth checks. Moving faster than their Base speed should get them automatically detected.

If the adventurers try to run, I would suggest that they roll 1d20+20 as a set Stealth check vs. a Perception check by the NPCs. If the NPCs beat the DC, they then know the exact position of the adventurer trying to run past them. If the NPC fails the DC, he's still aware of the adventurer's presence, but not their exact location.

-But what about the noise when simply walking?
If you are concerned about that, let your players know that they will have to roll two stealth checks. One is for hiding, taking the +20 bonus, the second is without the +20, which is for moving silently. DnD 3.5 used to work like that, and for the better.

As for the coup the grace question. Invisible or not, a sleeping creature is already subject to a coup de grace. Invisibility should grant them a +2 to hit in any non-coup de grace attack.

If are ever unsure about how the rules work, don't stall your game; Just come up with something logical and fair and use it instead.

Good luck!

EDIT: I have a better idea about the moving silently part.

Have your players roll stealth just once, without the +20. Then roll for perception by the NPCs. If the NPCs beat the DC, they heard a PC moving around. Finally, add 20 to the original Stealth check, and determine whether or not the Perception was high enough to beat even that!

As a reminder, don't forget various penalties to Perception, including distance, being distracted, or having noise in a room!

[Bruno Kristensen]

WackyPeanut wrote:

As for the coup the grace question. Invisible or not, a sleeping creature is already subject to a coup de grace. Invisibility should grant them a +2 to hit in any non-coup de grace attack.

Thanks for the answers. The Coup De Grace question was in regards to them hearing the person approaching, thus waking up and no longer being subject to CdG :)

[wraithstrike]

CDG is automatic crit no roll needed. You just have to spend time to find them first.

[Bruno Kristensen]

I know how CDGs work. I'm trying to find out how Invisibility affects a sleeping sentry's chances of waking up as the would-be coup de gracer is sneaking up to him.

[wraithstrike]

Bruno Kristensen wrote:

I know how CDGs work. I'm trying to find out how Invisibility affects a sleeping sentry's chances of waking up as the would-be coup de gracer is sneaking up to him.

Invis has no affect at all if you use RAI. RAW stealth does not differentiate between sight and sound. RAW you can be behind a door and still get that +20 mod to stealth even though they can't see you anyway.

So it depends if you want to go by what the book says or what the book intends.

edit:The invis rules do state that invis does not affect perception based on noise so you can use that to justify ignoring the +20.

[Claxon]

With the unfortunate consolidation of move silently and hide into stealth in the transition from 3.5 to Pathfinder and without spells being properly adjusted you do end up with odd situations that according to the rules creatures not attempting to use sight to locate a creature are still affected by invisibility. However, it is very reasonable for a GM to rule that it only affects attempts to locate by sight not by sound.

Which is why I think even invisiblility has this:

Quote:

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check.

Basically, a DC 20 perception check lets you know an invisible creature is somehwere near you. Whether that is due to sound or some other 6th sense is unknown. But you get a chance to detect it regardless.

[thejeff]

Claxon wrote:

With the unfortunate consolidation of move silently and hide into stealth in the transition from 3.5 to Pathfinder and without spells being properly adjusted you do end up with odd situations that according to the rules creatures not attempting to use sight to locate a creature are still affected by invisibility. However, it is very reasonable for a GM to rule that it only affects attempts to locate by sight not by sound.

Which is why I think even invisiblility has this:

Quote:

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check.

Basically, a DC 20 perception check lets you know an invisible creature is somehwere near you. Whether that is due to sound or some other 6th sense is unknown. But you get a chance to detect it regardless.

Which is annoying, because with a high stealth character, taking that as RAW, it's easier to notice he's there when he's invisible than when he's not.

[Kolokotroni]

One thing to note is that sighted creatures even with good hearing are often still reliant on sight. How often have you heard a noise, looked up, saw nothing, then ignored it. Invisibility having an impact on sound based stealth checks is not completely rediculous. If a creature COULD see an invisible stealther, the bonus probably should still apply.

That said, RAW is really messy. One thing to point out is that all perception checks take a penalty based on distance, and circumstance.

A sentry on the other side of a door is at a -5 penalty (through a door), and an additional -1 for every 10ft away the opponent is. Is there a wall in the way? -10 per foot thick the wall is. These mods are often forgotten, but if you are going to nitpick about stealth and invisibility, you really should be accounting for this also.