I've recently come across the fact that there are people out there (Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Colombo, Reg Park, Layne Norton, etc) who could/can deadlift 700+ lbs. That means that according to the carrying capacity chart, they have 24 or better strength with no magical items. Why then, is 20 the highest starting racial score for humans? Seems the only way to get above 20 in PF is magic of one sort or another (or being really high level, which no one on Earth is). Maybe there should be some mechanic for training ability scores. Or is there one and I don't know about it?
The people mentioned have custom feats to increase carrying capacity would be my guess.
Bah! Custom feats? What's that? :P
I'm talking RAW here.
24 Strength humans via RAW: they're level 16 Commoners. Gain 4 ability point increases for leveling up.
Or: they're level 1 Barbarians. They can temporarily gain 24 Strength through Rage.
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Well I just found this feat, Cut your losses that adds +2 to strength for carrying capacity and the Muscle of the Society trait that does the same. Together you can have an effective 24 strength for carrying capacity as a level 1 human.
They're alchemists. Side effects include reduced sperm count, shrunken testicles, and enlarged breasts.
Only half of them use roids. But, point taken.
Well I just found this feat, Cut your losses that adds +2 to strength for carrying capacity and the Muscle of the Society trait that does the same. Together you can have an effective 24 strength for carrying capacity as a level 1 human.
True, I suppose. I don't feel like they were just strong for carrying though.
24 Strength humans via RAW: they're level 16 Commoners. Gain 4 ability point increases for leveling up.
Or: they're level 1 Barbarians. They can temporarily gain 24 Strength through Rage.
They definitely aren't level 16. I like the idea of them all going berserk and then hefting the weights though. Good, simple solve.
Well I just found this feat, Cut your losses that adds +2 to strength for carrying capacity and the Muscle of the Society trait that does the same. Together you can have an effective 24 strength for carrying capacity as a level 1 human.True, I suppose. I don't feel like they were just strong for carrying though.
To be fair they would still have a 20 strength for general purposes which is a lot. It's just that they happen to have a specialty in lifting... which kinda sounds like how it really is.
To be fair they would still have a 20 strength for general purposes which is a lot. It's just that they happen to have a specialty in lifting... which kinda sounds like how it really is.Well I just found this feat, Cut your losses that adds +2 to strength for carrying capacity and the Muscle of the Society trait that does the same. Together you can have an effective 24 strength for carrying capacity as a level 1 human.True, I suppose. I don't feel like they were just strong for carrying though.
Also correct, sir.
Also. Those weights are designed for lifting. Maximum loads assume a realistic mass not designed for lifting. I'd say the lifters get a +2 for using proper equipment.
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Dead lifting, as in lift off the ground, right? Just being sure, because that would be 19 strength, not 24. 24 strength is to lift 700 overhead, and 19 is to lift 700 off the ground (max load of 350 doubled).
I've recently come across the fact that there are people out there (Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Colombo, Reg Park, Layne Norton, etc) who could/can deadlift 700+ lbs. That means that according to the carrying capacity chart, they have 24 or better strength with no magical items. Why then, is 20 the highest starting racial score for humans? Seems the only way to get above 20 in PF is magic of one sort or another (or being really high level, which no one on Earth is). Maybe there should be some mechanic for training ability scores. Or is there one and I don't know about it?
You need to reread the lifting and carrying rules. The maximum weight that can be lifted is twice the max carried. The current deadlift record is just over 1000 pounds. That is a STR of 22. Given that he is wearing a weight belt, that could accout for a plus two. The absolute record, with some specialized equipment is just under 1200 pounds, STR 23.
Not surprisingly the world record for the Clean and Jerk, lifting from the ground to an overhead position, is 581 pounds, or STR 23, again using a weight belt.
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Also keep in mind that they'd need to be able to stagger around with the weight relatively indefinitely. Can those fellows lift those items and walk across the stage without their bodies giving out? Without special braces for lifting and/or avoiding injury after all. Because a 24 Str character doesn't need special equipment to lift 700 lbs. off the ground and walk around with it slowly without risking injury.
I've recently come across the fact that there are people out there (Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Colombo, Reg Park, Layne Norton, etc) who could/can deadlift 700+ lbs. That means that according to the carrying capacity chart, they have 24 or better strength with no magical items. Why then, is 20 the highest starting racial score for humans? Seems the only way to get above 20 in PF is magic of one sort or another (or being really high level, which no one on Earth is). Maybe there should be some mechanic for training ability scores. Or is there one and I don't know about it?
Those people had an effective 24+ from circumstance bonuses (training everyday) and alchemical (steroid) bonuses. Unfortunately those aren't in the rules yet but you could manage a houserule if you wanted.
I've recently come across the fact that there are people out there (Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Colombo, Reg Park, Layne Norton, etc) who could/can deadlift 700+ lbs. That means that according to the carrying capacity chart, they have 24 or better strength with no magical items. Why then, is 20 the highest starting racial score for humans? Seems the only way to get above 20 in PF is magic of one sort or another (or being really high level, which no one on Earth is). Maybe there should be some mechanic for training ability scores. Or is there one and I don't know about it?Those people had an effective 24+ from circumstance bonuses (training everyday) and alchemical (steroid) bonuses. Unfortunately those aren't in the rules yet but you could manage a houserule if you wanted.
no house rules needed. Strength 19+ works just fine.
I've recently come across the fact that there are people out there (Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Colombo, Reg Park, Layne Norton, etc) who could/can deadlift 700+ lbs. That means that according to the carrying capacity chart, they have 24 or better strength with no magical items. Why then, is 20 the highest starting racial score for humans? Seems the only way to get above 20 in PF is magic of one sort or another (or being really high level, which no one on Earth is). Maybe there should be some mechanic for training ability scores. Or is there one and I don't know about it?Those people had an effective 24+ from circumstance bonuses (training everyday) and alchemical (steroid) bonuses. Unfortunately those aren't in the rules yet but you could manage a houserule if you wanted.no house rules needed. Strength 19+ works just fine.
The world record for the Clean and Jerk is 580 lbs. One would still need a strength score of 23 to accomplish this lift over the head.
The deadlift world records are actually over 1000 lbs.However a D&D character can carry his maximum load around all day, which even the best athletes wouldn't manage. The D&D rules also don't differentiate beetween what is lifted. It's easy to grab a bar, but more awkward objects will require more strength and skills. Atlas Stones might be a better way to judge a D&D characters strength.
I've recently come across the fact that there are people out there (Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Colombo, Reg Park, Layne Norton, etc) who could/can deadlift 700+ lbs. That means that according to the carrying capacity chart, they have 24 or better strength with no magical items. Why then, is 20 the highest starting racial score for humans? Seems the only way to get above 20 in PF is magic of one sort or another (or being really high level, which no one on Earth is). Maybe there should be some mechanic for training ability scores. Or is there one and I don't know about it?Those people had an effective 24+ from circumstance bonuses (training everyday) and alchemical (steroid) bonuses. Unfortunately those aren't in the rules yet but you could manage a houserule if you wanted.no house rules needed. Strength 19+ works just fine.
The world record for the Clean and Jerk is 580 lbs. One would still need a strength score of 23 to accomplish this lift over the head.
The deadlift world records are actually over 1000 lbs.However a D&D character can carry his maximum load around all day, which even the best athletes wouldn't manage. The D&D rules also don't differentiate beetween what is lifted. It's easy to grab a bar, but more awkward objects will require more strength and skills. Atlas Stones might be a better way to judge a D&D characters strength.
No, the amount you can lift over your head in Pathfinder is twice your heavy load. So for the 580 lbs. record in clean and jerk, you would need a strength score of 18.
For the 1000 lbs. deadlifts, 22 should do it.
Actually while strength plays a role, technique so that you don't injure yourself while doing such actions is just as important. I'd peg that as Profession (Weightlifter) which when performed well (i.e. beating the DC) provides a circumstance bonus to carrying capacity for the rest of your turn, with the bonus getting bigger the better you perform.
I'm pretty sure average human capabilities are 10 for any given stat. I wouldn't complain about the notion that 30 pounds would make me encumbered. That's just over 6 large (2 litre) bottles of soda, which I know for a fact would have an effect on me. Then again I am not a very strong person, but it doesn't seem too off for me.
(Then again (again) I'm also comparing it to carrying a bag with 3 bottles of soda in each hand with plastic straps gnawing into my fingers, which is by no means an optimal way to carry anything)
EDIT: Or maybe it does seem off, but it's not too little. If anything, it seems like a little much to carry without being encumbered.
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While one might argue that magic can (more than) compensate for modern understandings of nutrition and physiology, the real rub is economics.
The Arnolds and Francos of the real world don't apply to the (typical) fantasy milieu is because in the real world it's simply possible to be a professional bodybuilder. Peasants and plebians simply don't have that kind of free time because they're fulltime pig farmers or blacksmiths' apprentices. Or if they're highborn, they have all that time tied up in classical instruction.
Sure, there's a potential flaw in that argument. Look at the Conan the Barbarian movie! Conan (played by the Arnold) got all Arnoldy just by pushing a millstone! My response is "Yeah, well, there had to have been something else going on there. Offscreen, they clearly must have fed him magical brute fuel or something. It doesn't matter anyway... he's as big as Arnold because he's played by Arnold, afterall."
If that whole train of thought isn't compelling, then consider a meta one:
Sometimes the rules just don't make sense. Carrying capacities and strength values are pretty damn arbitrary, anyway. How come an Ogre with 16 strength that can benchpress a schoolbus can't deal as much damage as a Halfling with 18 strength that couldn't benchpress half as much?
My favorite is that environmental damage doesn't scale with hit dice. Why does falling from a great height hurt any less depending on how much you know about defending yourself from melee attacks? Why does the flesh of a newbie adventurer burn so much faster than the flesh of a veteran one?
If that whole train of thought isn't compelling, then consider a meta one:
Sometimes the rules just don't make sense. Carrying capacities and strength values are pretty damn arbitrary, anyway. How come an Ogre with 16 strength that can benchpress a schoolbus can't deal as much damage as a Halfling with 18 strength that couldn't benchpress half as much?
Since when can ogres bench press a school bus?
Anyway, a halfling's damage dice with any weapon they can use including unarmed strike is going to have less damage dice than the ogre. The ogre is still going to hit harder, for the most part.My favorite is that environmental damage doesn't scale with hit dice. Why does falling from a great height hurt any less depending on how much you know about defending yourself from melee attacks? Why does the flesh of a newbie adventurer burn so much faster than the flesh of a veteran one?
It's because higher level characters are superhuman. Characters aren't just learning how to deal with melee weapons, they have to deal with breath weapons, firearms, spells, siege weapons etc.. It wouldn't make sense to scale environmental damage when nothing else does.
Ogre with 16 strength: 2d6+3 (10 damage on average) damage with a Large Battleaxe.
Halfling with 18 strength: 1d6+4 (7.5 damage on average) with a Small Battleaxe. If the Halfing tried to use a Medium battleaxe, they'd get 1d8+4 (8.5 damage on average) but have -2 attack, and they'd have to use it two-handed. They would not be allowed to use a Large Battleaxe at all.
Ogre with 16 strength: Lift and stagger about with 920 lbs (230 x2 for size, x2 again for staggering).
Halfling with 18 strength: Lift and stagger about with 450 lbs (300 x.75 for size, x2 for staggering).
On a side note, Jean Valjean (from Les Miserables) performs feats of strength on a number of occasions, and he was based on a real person. One of the instances involved a heavy cart of some sort (I don't have the book on-hand while I type this), which would probably weigh 200-600lbs when empty, according to the CRB. If the cart were loaded, and assuming he'd only have to lift half of the weight, due to it being levered off the ground, he may have been in the 18-20 Str range. I'll have to check the book later, to get more details on the incident.
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If that whole train of thought isn't compelling, then consider a meta one:
Sometimes the rules just don't make sense. Carrying capacities and strength values are pretty damn arbitrary, anyway. How come an Ogre with 16 strength that can benchpress a schoolbus can't deal as much damage as a Halfling with 18 strength that couldn't benchpress half as much?Since when can ogres bench press a school bus?
Anyway, a halfling's damage dice with any weapon they can use including unarmed strike is going to have less damage dice than the ogre. The ogre is still going to hit harder, for the most part.
Not if you give them identical weapons. Say, a medium sized longsword. The Halfling with 18 strength will do 1d8+6 damage (two handed). The Ogre with 16 strength will do 1d8+4 damage two handed, to keep comparing apples to apples.
Yet that ogre with 16 strength has the raw power to lift 460 pounds over his head (ok, point taken. "School bus" was an overexaggeration). The halfling's power is only sufficient to lift 300 pounds in the same way. The Ogre has about a 5/3 advantage in raw power (depending on how one defines and measures horsepower..) yet is doing only 2/3 as much "bonus damage" based on the variable of raw power. (or 3/4 as much bonus-from-strength damage, if there were an apples-to-apples way to compare w/o the 2-h bonus)
My favorite is that environmental damage doesn't scale with hit dice. Why does falling from a great height hurt any less depending on how much you know about defending yourself from melee attacks? Why does the flesh of a newbie adventurer burn so much faster than the flesh of a veteran one?It's because higher level characters are superhuman. Characters aren't just learning how to deal with melee weapons, they have to deal with breath weapons, firearms, spells, siege weapons etc.. It wouldn't make sense to scale environmental damage when nothing else does.
I'm not saying it SHOULD scale.. was just saying it's nonsensical. So if strength is nonsensical, there's proof that it's hardly a unique "failure" in the rules. They're just arbitrary lines drawn for meta concerns (like playability). Strength caps is just another example of an arbitrary line drawn for no "sensible" reason- purely meta instead.
Its a game and not meant to correlate with the real world.
Wizards cast spells. Clerics can create an unlimited amount of water breaking the fundamental laws of the universe. Realism was out of the window as soon as you started playing the game.
They definitely aren't level 16.24 Strength humans via RAW: they're level 16 Commoners. Gain 4 ability point increases for leveling up.
Why not? If the problem is that they didn't acquire xp through fighting, it's not a problem. Xp don't come only from fights.
Also, nothing prevents that they had diets (and substances, not necessarily of the bad type) available in this world and this era only which give them some bonus.
And feats designed specifically to do that, such as "when calculating the weight you can lift, your Strength is considered X points higher". Feats that we don't have in Pathfinder because no PC or monster would ever take them.
Not if you give them identical weapons. Say, a medium sized longsword. The Halfling with 18 strength will do 1d8+6 damage (two handed). The Ogre with 16 strength will do 1d8+4 damage two handed, to keep comparing apples to apples.
I don't think it's fair giving the halfling a big weapon and the ogre gets one that's too small for it. What if they had levels in monk or brawler? The halfling's unarmed strike is going to be 1d4, and the ogre's is going to be 1d8. The halfling's average damage is going to be 6.5 when the ogre's is going to be 7.5. The gap is going to only get wider as they level up.
I'm not saying it SHOULD scale.. was just saying it's nonsensical.
In any case, it was a design choice to make higher level characters survive giant falls and such. Not just for playability, but because their supposed to be superhuman and tough enough to survive crazy things. It's fantasy, just like how marvel comic book characters are intentionally superhuman. It's the same thing here.
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I don't think it's fair giving the halfling a big weapon and the ogre gets one that's too small for it. What if they had levels in monk or brawler? The halfling's unarmed strike is going to be 1d4, and the ogre's is going to be 1d8. The halfling's average damage is going to be 6.5 when the ogre's is going to be 7.5. The gap is going to only get wider as they level up.
Not if you give them identical weapons. Say, a medium sized longsword. The Halfling with 18 strength will do 1d8+6 damage (two handed). The Ogre with 16 strength will do 1d8+4 damage two handed, to keep comparing apples to apples.
It's completely fair. They even have the same wrong-size penalty to hit.
If there's going to be a fair comparison of the impact of strength on damage, all variables outside of strength need to be removed. Making comparisons on different weapons is comparing apples to oranges. Of course the Ogre can do more damage with a huge sized bastard sword than a Halfling can with a tiny sized dagger. So what? It's bringing factors outside of strength into a discussion about strength (most notably, the disparity of base damage dice). Equally valueless as comparing large and small size weapons for the same purpose.When comparing the role of strength values in damage, the weapons are either identical or irrelevant.
I'm not saying it SHOULD scale.. was just saying it's nonsensical.In any case, it was a design choice to make higher level characters survive giant falls and such. Not just for playability, but because their supposed to be superhuman and tough enough to survive crazy things. It's fantasy, just like how marvel comic book characters are intentionally superhuman, it's the same thing here.
I'm not sure you see that we're agreeing here. Real life need not apply. My point is and always has been that real life need not necessarily apply to the strength rules, either.
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I did give them the same weapon, by using a brawler or monk for unarmed damage instead of forcing them to use inappropriate sized weapons. The reason the ogre has more damage dice and average damage with his unarmed attacks is because he is bigger and stronger, same reason it has a greater carrying capacity. You're just focusing on just the strength score for some reason instead of other factors, such as being bigger gives you more damage with natural weapons, unarmed damage, wield bigger weapons, increased carrying capacity and strength checks to break doors. Yes the halfling does more damage with using the exact same size weapon, but is weaker in every other comparison and category.
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I did give them the same weapon, by using a brawler or monk for unarmed damage instead of forcing them to use inappropriate sized weapons. The reason the ogre has more damage dice and average damage with his unarmed attacks is because he is bigger and stronger, same reason it has a greater carrying capacity. You're just focusing on just the strength score for some reason instead of other factors, such as being bigger gives you more damage with natural weapons, unarmed damage, wield bigger weapons, increased carrying capacity and strength checks to break doors. Yes the halfling does more damage with using the exact same size weapon, but is weaker in every other comparison and category.
That reason is to illustrate the same thing we agree about on environmental damage is going on with the strength rules. Real life is not weighing fully in. The 16 strength on an ogre has more raw muscle power than 18 strength on a Halfling, yet for metagame reasons that "greater" strength (the 16) results in smaller in-game bonuses than the "lesser" strength (the 18). It's not just melee damage bonus: the 16 strength ogre is less likely to succeed on a strength check than the 18 strength Halfling. Again, despite the Ogre being able to exert much more force.
I've recently come across the fact that there are people out there (Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Colombo, Reg Park, Layne Norton, etc) who could/can deadlift 700+ lbs. That means that according to the carrying capacity chart, they have 24 or better strength with no magical items. Why then, is 20 the highest starting racial score for humans? Seems the only way to get above 20 in PF is magic of one sort or another (or being really high level, which no one on Earth is). Maybe there should be some mechanic for training ability scores. Or is there one and I don't know about it?
J.J. Watt of the Houston Texans ... amazing athlete and freak of nature. Youtube some of his exploits. Total beast.
Yeah, ogres typically have 21, anyway. It's going to be very rare to see a small creature with a better strength score than a large creature.
How come an Ogre with 16 strength that can benchpress a schoolbus can't deal as much damage as a Halfling with 18 strength that couldn't benchpress half as much?
Contrast a small woman putting all her weight on your foot through a stiletto heel versus someone a lot heavier but with a wide flat heel? I know which I'd least like.
Xp don't come only from fights.They definitely aren't level 16.24 Strength humans via RAW: they're level 16 Commoners. Gain 4 ability point increases for leveling up.
Source on something with a specified XP reward for doing something that isn't a fight/trap/combatencounter?
Common sense house rules don't count.
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Actually . . .
Given that there are some strange circumstances (such as only lifting the weights for less than a round and the wonkyness of a deadlift vs. a clean-and-jerk and how pathfinder rules work) I don't think strength is even involved. I say it's a profession (or perform): Weightlifter check. Those guys ARE making money off of it after all!
Xp don't come only from fights.They definitely aren't level 16.24 Strength humans via RAW: they're level 16 Commoners. Gain 4 ability point increases for leveling up.
Source on something with a specified XP reward for doing something that isn't a fight/trap/combatencounter?
Common sense house rules don't count.
Nearly every AP and plenty of modules have examples.
From the CRB, pg 399,
Roleplaying encounters and Story Awards (which are not the same thing, both give xp, according the Core rules.Keep a list of the CRs of all the monsters, traps, obstacles, and roleplaying encounters the PCs overcome. At the end of each session, award XP to each PC that participated. <snip> Pure roleplaying encounters generally have a CR equal to the average level of the party (although particularly easy or difficult roleplaying encounters might be one higher or lower).
<snip>
Story Awards: Feel free to award Story Awards when players conclude a major storyline or make an important accomplishment. These awards should be worth double the amount of experience points for a CR equal to the APL. Particularly long or difficult story arcs might award even more, at your discretion as GM.
Cool, thanks. I wouldn't know about half of that because I never play published, there's just three times too much combat in those things and golarion doesnt do anything for me.
Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character's maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character's Strength in the heavy load column of Table: Carrying Capacity.
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
Note that lift above the head is the max number for the strength listed, the world record for this is 581 lbs, which is just under the max listed for 23 STR. This was done with the use of a weight belt.
The world record for the dead lift is just under 1200 lbs which is double the max for 23 STR. This was done with some specialized equipment along with a weight belt. (I doubt that they could stagger for any time while lifting this weight.)
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Another thing we might want to consider is population: in a given medieval fantasy setting, an Earth-like world might hold at most 4-5 hundred million people. Our planet today has an order of magnitude more than that. You're going to get a few dozen people who can dead-lift 700+ pounds and they'll likely be famous for it, while in fantasy settings you might get one or two (and they might be unknown).
I've recently come across the fact that there are people out there,
Or: they're level 1 They can temporarily gain 24 Strength through Rage.
*cough cough... Conan... cough*
}:-P
Hm, if we were going by rules, I'd say its closer to "they did really well on Str related checks for the individual instance, rather than the overall strength rating of <X>"
Weightlifting, particularly with the best of human ability is as much about skill as it is raw ability. Pathfinder doesn't emulate this well becasue why on earth would there be rules for it in a fantasy adventure game? Weightlifter would probably be like an archetype of expert and probably added a skill 'weightlifting' to the skill list (maybe just proffession weightlifter). Then feats and equipement would modify it.
Its not just raw strength. The game isn't meant to model it, and it really shouldn't. It models things likely to be associated with adventurers going on adventures. Even when lifting things, adventures generally dont hike a specially designed weight above their heads, leave it there for a second or two and then drop it. Hence, its not part of the lifting/carrying rules, which are meant for long term lifting and carrying of things, which adventures might very well do.
Hm, if we were going by rules, I'd say its closer to "they did really well on Str related checks for the individual instance, rather than the overall strength rating of <X>"
I agree with this, considering that a Str of 23 (+6) can burst rope, manacles, and chain at that level of strength.