Hey, I made this for my homebrew PF setting and I wanted to share it with you all for use in your campaigns.
Essentially, it's prayer fleshed out as a mechanical skill.
The Link: Invocation
It's written as a part of the setting thing, so there's setting specific lingo:
Yaevre- a god/equivalent
Deved- a god's angelic servant/equivalent
Adwar Mael Khama/A.M.K- Setting specific curse of theomachy/irrelevant to everyone not in this setting
Feel free to switch out terminology for whatever suits your world, or gut the flavor altogether.
This is meant to be used in a campaign where religion and their gods play a more direct and influential role in the game rather than just lore. I also wanted it to feel like the option for prayer in roguelike games. It offers more potential tactical options to anyone, and can encourage a lot of roleplaying.
So, as it is written at this point, this skill is not as cut and dry as others would be with clearly plotted out DC's and what successful roles look like. The PC could make the roll higher than what the stated DC is, but depending on the circumstance, their god might deny the request. This might make the need for a mechanical apparatus for this seem superfluous, but the end of the day all of the DC's of any skill check are still at the whims of the GM, and when players see that they have an option right in front of their face, they are usually more apt to think about using it rather than not.
I hope you like it, please let me know if you have any ideas about how to perhaps develop it more, or any constructive criticism in general, and again feel free to use this for your campaign.
Cheers.
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I assume Invocation is a Class Skill for all Classes?....
With a DC 10, everyone will have unlimited 0 level spells.
And for that matter -- DC16 for 1st lvl spells, 17 for 2nd lvl spells -- YIKES. Not good, even even DC 15+Double spell level seems to dramatically weaken EVERY caster class because you can just build a Fighter with a solid CHA & max-out Invocation.
Feats or Traits that boost it? Skill Focus and a new Feat, "Invoker," plus maybe a Trait that gives a +1 to the Skill -- I'd probably outlaw. Way too easy to make a PC, Paladin especially because of the CHA, get a gross-high Invocation bonus even at 1st level:
Human Paladin with 20pt buy-
CHA 14
Human Feat: Skill Focus: Invocation
1st Lvl Feat: Invoker
Trait: Invoker
Invocation = +12 at first level!
And you're a Paladin.
With an 80% chance to cast ANY 1st level Spell, 75% chance to cast ANY 2nd level spell, 70% chance to cast any 3rd level spell -- at First Level!
And of course I'll Fluff and roleplay the PC to be very devout to my yaevre.
1) Absolutely outlaw any Feats & Traits that bump the SKill
2) Make it DC 15 for 0 level spells and 15 plus DOUBLE spell level for other spells.
And the Paladin is +6 Invocation at 1st Level.
Hey, thanks for your reply! I really appreciate your feedback and ideas.
It isn't a class skill for all classes, but it isn't a trained only skill.
If it's overused it can undermine the system, but the invoked power can still simply say 'no' if they are annoyed by the PC in question. Because the skill is under GM discretion, he can choose to use it only when it actually benefits the game rather than just benefiting a munchkin. In powerplay games people will powerplay.
That doesn't mean that specc'ing into the skill should never be rewarded however. I guess I imagined it going in that 'speccing' into invocation would be handled more through roleplaying encounters and milestones during questlines rather than feats- ergo the 'favor' description.
I do think that feats for lessening the time it takes in combat to use the skill may be a good thing, along with the feats and trait you mentioned above.
I'm ALL for tinkering with DC's, what was presented is the first mildly-tested draft. How would you go about it?
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Oh I would totally add this to a game -- playtest first.
My big concern is what it does to Casters. Full casters get taken down a peg or two -- but some people feel that would be a good thing. And I'd be very interested to see how minor casters get affected.
My minor concern is DM consistency and the appearance of DM consistency & fairness. Open table talk and an honest group is important for things like this.
I, of course, don't know about your specific Campaign World and the whole Yaevhre make-up (admittedly not terribly curious) but the line about using Invocation from a Yaehvre who is opposite Alignment seems unnecessary -- who would do that?
Well think how often you want say a level five paladin to cast level three spells and set the DC accordingly. 50% success rate 25%? I dont know its your game. To prevent abuse have the DC increase if used multiple times in a short period, month day, year whatever fits your campaign.
This would be better as a class feature or feat that uses class level or hit dice instead of skill points.
I will playtest as much as possible.
My big concern is what it does to Casters. Full casters get taken down a peg or two -- but some people feel that would be a good thing. And I'd be very interested to see how minor casters get affected.
Yes. I felt like in the higher levels, giving the melee bros an option would up their utility and maybe bridge the gap a small ways between the fighter 20 and the wizard 20. But at this stage, I would still want both of them to find the skill utile. I guess in a way it's giving everyone the possibility of receiving the effects of a wish spell. Perhaps we should give this project as a whole more of a treatment considering that fact. But at this point, invoking in combat is a full round action, much like summoning. If a melee'er or even a half caster decides to heavily rely on it, they are giving away a LOT of their action economy, for something that might not even provide any gains.
This being said, I'm also one who wants to reward creativity and innovation on the part of my players, and while I might not 'give it to them' on their own terms, I'll give them something.
The write-up on invocation mentioned a boon system that I have not included. Because they would be contacting higher powers that would meet the invoker not on the invoker's terms, but their own terms, often giving a boon is the answer to an invocation. I've set it up so that most boons would affect not just the individual but the party as a whole. So, it would add to the overall CR of the party rather than screwing up completely the differences of different level casting classes. I would have posted that too, but it's got so much setting inside, so I didn't.
My minor concern is DM consistency and the appearance of DM consistency & fairness. Open table talk and an honest group is important for things like this.
This is one of the greater issues I try to address in my games. In the game I'm running right now, I promote all of those values vehemently, and I'm fortunate enough to have a group who is really healthy in those aspects. It hasn't become a problem yet. Also, in the campaign I'm running, most of the characters do not have an active faith, so only about 2 of my players have actually used this skill/will ever use this skill if not in excessively dire straights.
In gaming atmospheres where it's GM vs. Party, or Munchkin vs. GM, this system can hold little water.
I, of course, don't know about your specific Campaign World and the whole Yaevhre make-up (admittedly not terribly curious) but the line about using Invocation from a Yaehvre who is opposite Alignment seems unnecessary -- who would do that?
So, there are more than a plethora of Yaevre in the plane who are active. Throughout history there has been a shift from extremely strict religious practices and levels of devotion due to race wars, which starts to delineate and subside with the actions and progressions of different races' theologies, value systems, and opinions on the Adwar Mael Khama at a national level. At the beginning, most sentient races only worshipped the Yaevre which created them. That same Yaevre commanded them to fight against the other races, yadda yadda.
Inside of this progression,in the later ages, there are several factions who have completely delineated from their 'mono'theistic origins for a more lax pantheonic worship system. And then there are spiritual manipulators who try to mask their alignment's 'scent' to gain power from a Yaevre whose spheres of dominion offer what their own Yaevre cannot.There are a few interesting interactions.
Thank you all for your input into my content.
Thanks bro!
To all involved: I'm going to be looking at different ways to completely rescale and balance the DC's as I have time.
I think there are other ways to put 'limiters' on this as well so that it doesn't get too out of hand at a glance. In my setting, each god has their own very specific invocation elements required, like spell components. If the invoker has no previous strong relations with the god they're trying to contact they won't give them the time of day.
These components could be offered as a sacrifice or even a hecatomb in different levels which could even scale into greater heights of value equal to the wish spells.
At the same time, I think that roleplaying as a primary means of 'advancement' and 'speccing' into favor with the god desired is the best means to accomplish the idea of this concept.
Also, I think brainstorming alternative 'answers' to invocation rather than simply free spells would be helpful. At this moment, I have the boon system.
Thanks again all. I'm willing to put in the effort required to make this something a bit more exhaustive and balanced. Happy Thanksgiving.
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I'm also one who wants to reward creativity and innovation on the part of my players.
Me too, brother!
I just use Hero Points -- and sometimes Bad Ass Points also, which are FAR stronger -- and of course, throw away the D&D-ruining, most-pathetic-gaming-mechanic-in-the-history-of-the-universe, Battle Mats.
But I really like the idea of this Skill you've come up with. Definitely
food for thought. Looking forward to reading about any playtesting you do.
In a Lovecraftian setting, invoking might just leave you mad and sputtering nonsense if you get what you want.
This is a neat skill. It hadn't occurred to me that praying should be a skill.
I might raise the DC to 20 + spell level. Just cause.
*great stuff*-- and of course, throw away the D&D-ruining, most-pathetic-gaming-mechanic-in-the-history-of-the-universe, Battle Mats.
...Did we just become best friends?
This is a cool idea. Dotted.
My friend is wanting to run a Song of Fire and Ice setting based game, but he wanted something to make the gods of that setting feel more real and reward the pious for worshipping them. I suggested he incorporate this skill, but increase the first DC from 15 + spell level to 25 + spell level, since that setting is pretty low-magic.
Hey All, tomorrow I will be able to playtest this with some weight.
I changed the DC's on everything, and it *should* scale a bit better now. At lvl 1 now only really optimized builds can get access to free lvl 1 spells maybe 25% of the time, again, on the specific terms of the higher power in question, and at GM circumstantial discretion, AND as a full-round action. (Out of combat, Invocation could be treated as having time constraints as well, possibly at the same rate at which a prepared caster prepares their spells impromptu... is that like 15 min/for x spells or something?)
Anyways, onto the SCIENCE...
An 'optimized modifier' here counted as a sum of +12.
Breakdown: +1 from skill rank, +3 from class trained skill, +3 from Skill Focus feat, and a +5 CHA mod.
A more 'normalized modifier' here counted as a sum of +7.
Breakdown: +1 from skill rank, +3 from class trained skill, +3 from Skill Focus feat.
(that being said, in PF I feel like most of the time CHA is either a dump stat or your main stat, so there's a bit of a gap. Clerics are probably the most well suited here for the 'normalized' roll, as they may have a good 14 in CHA for Channel Abilities, and now, this...)
How the DC's are slated now, DC28 is equal to a 1st lvl spell, and a DC23 is equal to a cantrip/orison.
Here is the roll breakdown:
Roll/Opt.Mod/Norm.Mod
20/32/27
19/31/26
18/30/25
17/29/24
16/28/23
This considered for early play (which my group is now), Scaling into late levels of play things may get hairier...
I want to make it possible that this skill can be used with low, but potential success in early levels, with gradual progression into perhaps 40-60% success rate into later levels, maybe like 80% or more success rate at 'endgame' levels, concerning how power levels work and all, but again I'm completely inexperienced at high-level play.
...How high can a charisma mod get (normally) at high levels? For both a PC who has it as their 'main stat' and as a 'meh stat'?
Considering the fact that you can only have skill ranks=HD, at lvl 20, barring any mod, the highest skill mod you could get in Invo. could be 29: 20 ranks, 3 from trained, 6 from Skill Focus Feat. Which means, the highest roll you could get is a 49. How the current DC's are slated, a lvl 9 spell Invo check would equal a DC of 52. That would mean that an 'optimized' invoker would need to have a pretty good CHA mod to get a lvl 9 spell.
But then to throw a wrench in the mix: If the invocation of a 9th lvl spell 'prayer' makes a 50 or even a 49, does the Invoker get the 8th level spell equivalency orrrr nothing at all? This will be decided in the science to come, but at the moment I feel that it very much relies on GM discretion: Different deities have different measures of favor/cruelty/ideologies/capriciousness. Some deities might give that 8th lvl spell as consolidation, or whatever fluff works, but some might not answer, and some might even strike them dead for their 'lack of faith' or whatever. Depends on a LOT of factors.
Other thoughts:
-Should the skill be inherently risky? I think sometimes. Obviously, when you are a PC it sucks to miss attacks, and to lose spells to random concentration checks. The risk here is to potentially get features your class may not have access to, such as spellcasting, or spells that are not on your spell list. I think that as both the optimized and normal PC invokers level, the percent chance of 'wasting a turn' should lessen over the game, but still be present at the endgame. Perhaps at endgame, getting lesser answers than what was desired will be much more common, but then, sometimes prayers aren't answered, and people still live with it.
-The decision of which deity you are praying to should also come into question. Maybe deities under this system should only be able to give 'Free Spells' that are found within their Domain's Spell Lists, and perhaps a 'general godstuff' spell list that would be generic and within any deity's power to do, I.E. Divine Favor, Protection from X (X=deities' opposing alignment[don't freak these are just ideas]), etc. Also the deity can 'answer prayers' through other means than simply just free spells given to the individual. 'Acts of God' is a legal liability term for a reason. There could be some natural force that happens and changes combat, which doesn't just benefit the individual invoker. MUNCHKINS BE DAMNED!(GM creativity is somewhat important for this skill to reallllly shine.) I also haven't shown you all the boon system thing that sort of correlates with this yet...
-Countercultures are always reactions to the previously set standard, but always are found in the same spectrum as the previously set standard. Perhaps this time we made it too hard, even for the optimized lvl 1 PC. Maybe it should be a little bit easier.
We will work out the kinks, I promise.
In conclusion,
This is far from over.
Thanks for watching.