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I have a halfling Shining Knight Archetype Paladin who likes to charge foes from the back of his dog. The majority of his feats are mounted ones - mounted combat, ride-by attack, spirited charge, wheeling charge to name some.
If some allies are up against a large-size bad-guy in melee, can my halfling charge at the bad-guy and make a less-than-90-degree turn (thanks to wheeling charge) to make his charging attack at a different square than would be allowed from a normal charge because his allies occupy the square he would normally have to attack from on a charge?
Say the dog wants to attack as part of that charge, does it have to wait until it gets 1 square closer because of the reach of the lance and then make its attack?
Now let's say the attack actually hits and my 9th level halfling paladin is smiting this bad guy using the spell litany of righteousness - does that spell follow the same rules as "adding" to the damage when you already have a multiplier (from spirited charge with a lance) to make it x4 damage, or does it double your whole x3 damage?
Thanks in advance.
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You should have at least 3 legal charge options to attack from. Don't let the squares on the map tell you a straight line isn't a straight line.
Yes, your dog has to attack from an adjacent square. You have Ride-by Attack so that should work (note that that will end your charge adjacent to the enemy though, your dog does not have a feat allowing him to continue moving).
Yes, Litany of Righteousness follows the same rules as other multiplicative effects; a lance, plus spirited charge, plus litany of righteousness is X4 damage. Note that if it's an evil outsider, dragon, or undead, the bonus smite damage is not a multiplier, but an increase in the direct damage so you'd multiply the boosted smite damage by 4, not your base smite by 5.
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Thanks for the confirmation of how I perceived things to work - a bit of advice, now if you would?
What weapon enhancements should I be looking for with this character? His primary weapon right now is a +1 cold iron lance. Do you think +2 would be a better investment, or something along the lines of greyflame or elemental damage, or should he save up for holy?
I disagree on the 3 legal charge options.
You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.
So, depending, you might have up to 3 legal charge options, or not. As long as your distance to those squares is the same, you can choose any square you can reach the enemy from. Terrain/people/obstacles can prevent some of those from being valid, due to the "straight line" clause.
We determine distance via square counting like normal movement. Straight line we put a ruler or other straight edge down, as that is the actual path the charge takes, if some of those squares have obstacles, difficult terrain, creatures, etc. then they block the charge to that square.
You still only have whichever squares are the same movement distance away. The fact that you can make a turn during the charge doesn't change that you must go to the closest space from which you can attack. If multiple spaces are the same distance, then you can choose between those spaces.
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As an example, all of these are valid charge options with Wheeling Charge:
(I hope this formats well, I'm on my phone)
E = Enemy
C = Character
= charge lane
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XXXXXX
CEE
XXXEE
XXXXX
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XXXEE
CXXXEE
XXXXXX
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XXXXXX
CXXXEE
XXXEE
--------------------
As well as 45° angle options.
Wheeling Charge is amazing.
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Thanks for the confirmation of how I perceived things to work - a bit of advice, now if you would?
What weapon enhancements should I be looking for with this character? His primary weapon right now is a +1 cold iron lance. Do you think +2 would be a better investment, or something along the lines of greyflame or elemental damage, or should he save up for holy?
Impact is a pretty decent one. While it only works out to 2.5 additional damage on a regular hit, it complements all of those multipliers you're stacking on better than almost any other enchantment; ultimately it's worth an extra 10 or so damage on average when you charge, while bonus die effects like Holy or elemental damage won't be multiplied and will always only give you 3.5-7 bonus damage.
You may make an attack during any part of this move.
So does that negate the "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent"?
I don't think so. It says nothing about not having to move through that space, only that you can make the attack at any point in the movement. Maybe the feat is intended to allow you to not have to move through the closest space, but it doesn't explicitly allow you to.In your examples, example 1 is 15'.
Example 2 and 3 are both 25'.
Example 1 is the only valid charge. I think this fits with wheeling charge, as it also doesn't negate the fact that you need a straight line to the target. It lets you charge and hit, then wheel and move away up to 90º. Not charge away, turn and then hit.
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Ah, you are correct, my mistake. Still, it'd be better with litany thrown on (just barely) than an elemental add, and wouldn't be subject to resistances. Probably still not as good as something like Holy though.
I'm going to throw out Glorious as a paladin appropriate and fairly powerful ability as well (just don't plan on sneaking anywhere).
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You may make an attack during any part of this move.So does that negate the "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent"?
I don't think so.
Indeed it does.
Specific trumps general.
General rule: straight line toward target, attack as soon as able.
Specific rule: one turn (at any point), attack at any point.
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Here's the feat for those following along at home.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, your mount can make one turn of up to 90 degrees as part of the move, as long as each part of the move is at least 10 feet. You may make an attack during any part of this move. Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. Allied creatures do not impede your charge, though you cannot attack from or end your move in an ally’s space.
Normal: You cannot turn when making a charge.
You may make an attack during any part of this move.So does that negate the "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent"?
I don't think so.Indeed it does.
Specific trumps general.
General rule: straight line toward target, attack as soon as able.
Specific rule: one turn (at any point), attack at any point.
Specific doesn't override the "closest space" requirement though.
General charge:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack.
Clear path
Closest spaceStraight line to determine what blocks
Line of sight
Attack after movement
Wheeling charge:
Mount can make one turn
Make attack during any part of move
Allied creatures don't block charge, but cannot attack or end in ally space
Things not changed: Clear path; Closest Space; Straight line to determine what blocks; Line of sight.
Also, with the recent FAQ that mounts and riders both charge, wheeling charge is worthless, since the mount also charges and doesn't have an ability to let it continue moving.
Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge. The mounted combat rules are a little unclear on this. Replace the third paragraph under the "Combat while Mounted" section on page 202 with the following text. Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.
A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.
This change will be reflected in future printings of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, your mount can make one turn of up to 90 degrees as part of the move, as long as each part of the move is at least 10 feet. You may make an attack during any part of this move. Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. Allied creatures do not impede your charge, though you cannot attack from or end your move in an ally’s space.
Normal: You cannot turn when making a charge.
I'm with nefreet, the bolded part explicitly overides the 'closest space' clause of a normal charge.
If you still have to attack at 'closest space' that is not compatible with 'any point'. specific overrides general.
I didn't say you had to attack from the closest space, but that your first movement must follow the normal charge line.
Normal charge: Move straight line to closest space you can attack, stop, make attack.
Wheeling charge: Move straight line to closest space you can attack, probably turn here as further movement would put you into the creature, make attack anytime creature is in range.
Wheeling charge does not say you do not have to move to the closest space from which you can attack, it merely lets you make a turn after having been there.
Another point of advice, in case you encounter GMs like Tarantula (because they obviously exist), is to charge a 5 foot plot of land first, then Wheeling Charge towards your real target, and attack "at any point during your move".
GMs love it.
If you charge that 5' plot of ground, then that is the charge target and what your melee attack must be against.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, your mount can make one turn of up to 90 degrees as part of the move, as long as each part of the move is at least 10 feet. You may make an attack during any part of this move. Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. Allied creatures do not impede your charge, though you cannot attack from or end your move in an ally’s space.
Normal: You cannot turn when making a charge.
Wheeling charge does not remove the "directly toward the designated opponent" restriction of charge. It merely provides that your mount can turn as part of the movement of charge, and can continue moving after the attack. I see this as allowing your example 1 earlier, but not 2 or 3. Wheeling charge is still a fantastic feat.
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Oh, and the dog rarely attacks unless for some reason we're caught in tight spaces.
Also, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you, Tarantula, it seems to me that Wheeling Charge says you can make that 90 degree turn at any point in the charge, not just after you've made your attack (so you can veer off and set up another charge). That being that case, it would definitely be an instance of specific rules trumping general rules saying that you have to charge to the closest space, since the wording of the feat says you can make the turn any time and it's part of a charge action. Finally, the sentence "you may attack at any part of the move" combined with the fact that this is all part of a charge suggests you can charge to whatever square is convenient.
Oh, and the dog rarely attacks unless for some reason we're caught in tight spaces.
Also, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you, Tarantula, it seems to me that Wheeling Charge says you can make that 90 degree turn at any point in the charge, not just after you've made your attack (so you can veer off and set up another charge). That being that case, it would definitely be an instance of specific rules trumping general rules saying that you have to charge to the closest space, since the wording of the feat says you can make the turn any time and it's part of a charge action. Finally, the sentence "you may attack at any part of the move" combined with the fact that this is all part of a charge suggests you can charge to whatever square is convenient.
I could see using wheeling charge to turn around an obstacle, and that would still be to get to the closest square you can make an attack from.
I simply don't see it removing the requirement that you must charge to the closest square to make an attack from. You don't have to attack from that square, but you do have to pass through it. Its a very sparsely worded feat, and could use some better wording.
The reason I said the FAQ breaks it, is because both characters charge in unison. But the wheeling charge feat only provides allowances for the mount to take different movement, not the rider. Since both follow "all other rules for the charge" the rider has not made a valid charge.
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I could see using wheeling charge to turn around an obstacle, and that would still be to get to the closest square you can make an attack from.
I simply don't see it removing the requirement that you must charge to the closest square to make an attack from. You don't have to attack from that square, but you do have to pass through it. Its a very sparsely worded feat, and could use some better wording.
The reason I said the FAQ breaks it, is because both characters charge in unison. But the wheeling charge feat only provides allowances for the mount to take different movement, not the rider. Since both follow "all other rules for the charge" the rider has not made a valid charge.
So then you have to "pass through" the square you would normally charge to, and according to you, the attack doesn't have to be from that square ... so you're saying that the charging pair can take any route to get to the bad guy they want as long as:
1) they don't turn more than 90 degrees
2) they don't exceed double the mount's movement
3) they at least pass through the square you normally charge to
4) they follow any other stipulations that Wheeling Charge carries
Is this correct?
Just about.
They have to pass through the nearest square an attack can be made from, whether that square takes a turn to get to or not, but they do not have to make the attack from that square.
Just about.
They have to pass through the nearest square an attack can be made from, whether that square takes a turn to get to or not, but they do not have to make the attack from that square.
The f!%$ kind of logic is that?
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The f+&$ kind of logic is that?Just about.
They have to pass through the nearest square an attack can be made from, whether that square takes a turn to get to or not, but they do not have to make the attack from that square.
He's trying really hard to honor the charge rules with a feat that overrides the charge rules.
I personally agree with Ssalarn and Nefreet on how it works. Wheeling Charge has pretty clear and specific language about saying what it does and doesn't do, and if the developers wanted the "attack from the nearest square" part of charge to still work with Wheeling Charge, they would have included language to explicitly say so.
I personally agree with Ssalarn and Nefreet on how it works. Wheeling Charge has pretty clear and specific language about saying what it does and doesn't do, and if the developers wanted the "attack from the nearest square" part of charge to still work with Wheeling Charge, they would have included language to explicitly say so.
If the developers did not want the "attack from the nearest square" part of charge to not work with Wheeling Charge, they would have included language to explicitly say so.
They did, they said "from any point".
You can't honor the "from any point" clause in Wheeling Charge if you insist on the "nearest square" general rule. It follows that implicitly Wheeling Charge overrides that general rule.
Attack from any point. Not that you don't have to move to that square. You just don't have to attack from that specific square.
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It seems to me that if they wanted Wheeling Charge simply as a feat to go around obstacles, they would have said something along the lines of "Wheeling Charge lets you move around obstacles less than "X" feet wide or long as part of a charge action while mounted", rather than including the "up to 90 degree turn" and "attack at any point along your path" language.
It seems to me that if they wanted Wheeling Charge simply as a feat to go around obstacles, they would have said something along the lines of "Wheeling Charge lets you move around obstacles less than "X" feet wide or long as part of a charge action while mounted", rather than including the "up to 90 degree turn" and "attack at any point along your path" language.
I agree. I don't see wheeling charge as "I charge sideways, and then turn to actually charge the target" as much as "I charge the target, and then turn and move away."