Rapier weapon mastery and swashbuckler weapon training in general

[shroudb]

for starters:
does swashbuckler weapon training, rapier weapon training, and etc count as weapon training for:
gloves of dueling

also:
rapier weapon mastery:

Quote:

At 20th level, when an inspired blade threatens a critical hit with a rapier, that critical hit is automatically confirmed. Furthermore, the critical threat range increases by 1 (this increase to the critical threat range stacks with the increases from the keen weapon special ability and similar effects), and the critical modifier of the weapon increases by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example).

what is the order of applying the crit range modifiers?

is it
(18-20)x2= (15-20)-1 for a (14-20) crit range
or
(18-20)-1= (17-20)x2 for a (13-20) crit range

small differance for a lvl20 ability, but nevertheless it bugs me...

[RumpinRufus]

RAW, I don't think Swashbuckler Weapon Training counts as the Weapon Training class feature, although it was perhaps intended to and I've seen many people say they'd allow it in their games.

The crit range increase from Rapier Weapon Mastery comes after the Improved Critical effect, I believe. So, the normal crit range for the Inspired Blade is 15-20, at level 20 it becomes 14-20.

[Imbicatus]

Swashbuckler Weapon Training does not count as weapon training based on this FAQ.

Swashbuckler wrote:

Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).

Swashbuckler Weapon Training does not refer to fighter weapon training or require you to make a specific choice for weapon training, so it is not weapon training for gloves of dueling.

[Dafydd]

the crit range is

Normal Rapier: 18-20
W/ Rapier Weapon Mastery: 17-20
Keen rapier w/ Rapier Weapon Mastery: 13-20

Based on it saying it stacks. Additionally, it is a class ability, which I apply before weapon abilities.

The gloves of dueling will not give you the +2 for the rapier weapon training.

[Sniggevert]

Dafydd wrote:

the crit range is

Normal Rapier: 18-20
W/ Rapier Weapon Mastery: 17-20
Keen rapier w/ Rapier Weapon Mastery: 13-20

Based on it saying it stacks. Additionally, it is a class ability, which I apply before weapon abilities.

The gloves of dueling will not give you the +2 for the rapier weapon training.

It's kind of a misnomer, because the character in question can't get any benefit from the actual keen weapon ability. The level 5 ability already grants Improved Critical with the rapier, so the rapier in the hands of this character was 15-20 before they got weapon mastery.

So which class ability do you apply first? I'd apply the one gained at level 5 before the one gained at level 20 personally.

[shroudb]

i kinda wish the writers were a bit more considerate toward the readers.

you have an item that works on "weapon training" but your rapier "weapon training" p.e. doesnt work with it.

at list name the ability differently, like p.e. piercing swing! then noone would argue.

as for the faq, i am aware of that, my thought though is that swashuckler is a hybrid from fighter/gunslinger

fighter gets weapon training, and it's obviously the parent class for swashbuckler's weapon training. so doesn't the "child" ability counts as the parent ability?

as for order of operations.

it would be great if paizo ever releashed a faq that said something like:

"all multipliers come after/before additive bonuses"

so far, the only thing i have in mind that multiplies static bonuses is crits/damage multipliers, and those surel apply AFTER you add static bonuses.

so so far, the raw seems to be static before multipliers.

so i'm going with 13-20 until proven otherwise

[Shar Tahl]

shroudb wrote:

so i'm going with 13-20 until proven otherwise

Make sure your GM is on board with that. It is a static 1 increase, and using the other direction, it ends up being a net 2 increase, 1 from the ability and one from the keen. I would be more inclined to believe that RAI, a +1 increase is a +1 increase in all instances.

[shroudb]

Shar Tahl wrote:

shroudb wrote:

so i'm going with 13-20 until proven otherwise

Make sure your GM is on board with that. It is a static 1 increase, and using the other direction, it ends up being a net 2 increase, 1 from the ability and one from the keen. I would be more inclined to believe that RAI, a +1 increase is a +1 increase in all instances.

Weapon specialization is a static 2 increase.

But using it on a charging lance p.e. it can reach up to 8.

So far in the game all static increases, unless specified (pe precision damage) are first added and then multiplied.

As far as gm goes, I a!m the gm, I just want to have rules by my side as often as possible.