Some good (or rather, eeEEEEEeeevvvvviiiiillllll) suggestions in here. But one weird thing about Infernal Healing is that Abaddon and the Abyss have no equivalent, even though under some of the suggestions in this thread, it would be in their interest to invent one. For an expanded version, make it Fiendish Healing, and the component can be blood from any Outer Planar Outsider that has Fast Healing of at least the value given by the spell (and Unholy Water only works for Infernal Healing, not Greater Infernal Healing, although Enhanced Unholy Water like Water of Lamashtu could work for at least an in-between version of the spell). Note that this way it could use Archon/Agathion/Azata/Angel blood, but taking blood from one of them that was not truly willing (and coercing into a pact by Planar Binding or Summoning doesn't count as willing) is itself an Evil act; the spell can only lose the Evil descriptor (but due to the same weird asymmetry that prevents Holy Water from working as a component, does not gain the Good descriptor) if you get the blood of a Good Outsider that is truly willing to give it, but given the kind of people that would use this spell (assuming that it also incorporates some of the suggestions above), such Outsiders would be extremely leery of giving their blood for use with this spell, and if they did so at all they would only want the use to occur under their supervision.
Also weird that no versions of the spell exist in between Infernal Healing (1st Level) and Greater Infernal Healing (4th Level). I would like to see this filled in to make Fiendish Healing I - IV (and maybe also add higher levels that act in mass and/or start to be able to confer Regeneration when using appropriately powerful Outsider blood, but cam also do really nasty things if you abuse them). Also weird that this and all the other healing spells are classified as Conjuration (Healing) rather than Necromancy like they were in 1st Edition. Note that as far as I can tell by Rules as Written, Infernal Healing should heal both living and Undead creatures (like Healing Salves, Scroll of Regeneration, and the Rejuvenate spell in WarCraft III, all of which work like Infernal Healing or Greater Infernal Healing, although with the first 2 having the added complication that they get terminated if a unit takes damage while they are in effect, with 1 or 2 weird exceptions; they also have a Faerie Fire visual effect which currently has no mechanical effect but calls out for acquiring a mechanical effect, such as having an actual Faerie Fire effect and even further attracting the attention of Outer Planar Outsiders).
What if infernal healing didn't actually provide the healing but instead stole it from some other poor random schmuck who would have otherwise gotten healed by the same amount? (Or is simply damage). Like you're not really curing the damage you're just deferring it onto somebody else? (Either in the future or instantaneously.) Bonus points if it comes from people the caster cares about/allies with. Bonus points if it comes at exactly the worst possible time.
What if infernal healing didn't actually provide the healing but instead stole it from some other poor random schmuck who would have otherwise gotten healed by the same amount? (Or is simply damage). Like you're not really curing the damage you're just deferring it onto somebody else? (Either in the future or instantaneously.) Bonus points if it comes from people the caster cares about/allies with. Bonus points if it comes at exactly the worst possible time.
There are some paladin spells that allow you to share HP with people like that. Merely taking it from someone else wouldn't be evil... it would have to have some kind of 'unwilling' aspect to it.
If there was some obviously evil aspect to use of infernal healing - especially anything that would be difficult to hide from the party's paladin once the spell has run its course - my neutral wizard would never touch the spell. It works as written because it is so innocuous. After a while, you learn that you can depend on this simple spell whenever you're in a fix.
The Duke of Fissures smiles, and moves a pawn.
My method has both simplicity and kitten murder to recommend it.
What if infernal healing didn't actually provide the healing but instead stole it from some other poor random schmuck who would have otherwise gotten healed by the same amount? (Or is simply damage). Like you're not really curing the damage you're just deferring it onto somebody else? (Either in the future or instantaneously.) Bonus points if it comes from people the caster cares about/allies with. Bonus points if it comes at exactly the worst possible time.
It's not even clear that the mage casting the spell would know what's going on "under the hood." And, in fact, the very best evil is so subtle you don't even realize you're doing it.....
You anoint a wounded creature with unholy water or devil’s blood, imbuing it with a devil’s fast healing 1 for the spell’s duration. This spell cannot heal damage caused by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells with the good descriptor. While the spell is in effect, the target gains an evil aura as if it were an evil-aligned creature of the same level (see detect evil for details). The target can also feel the evil of the spell as it works on his or her body, as tempting images of greed, lust, envy, wrath, etc. fill the subject’s mind. Occasional use of this spell does not necessarily have long-term effects on the target’s alignment.When does anyone ever keep track of that?
That part is in RAW:
You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1. This ability cannot repair damage caused by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells or effects with the good descriptor. The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment.
And if the GM is allowing this spell in her campaign, then it's the GM's job to say what the spell does and does not heal.
We're talking about a game setting where morality takes physical form. Where inherent evil does exist. Where some creatures literally embody the pursuit of committing evil acts.
I do think using the blood of a sacrifice works as a material component.
Spot on!
Setting aside my personal feeling that you shouldn't be able to eschew materials on this spell (although the drop of demonic blood doesn't have a listed price, it should have to come from somewhere besides just "appearing" in the wizard's bag), there is an easy way to give some cool fluff to this spell.As soon as the incantation is pronounced, a dark shadow rises over the wizard and moves to the recipient. This dark shadow is like a high cowl behind and above the head of the recipient, and it lingers for 6 hours per hit point actually healed. No actual mechanical effect happens, but it would be an eerie and unsettling phenomenon that might lead to some pointed questions and cool roleplay.
What if infernal healing didn't actually provide the healing but instead stole it from some other poor random schmuck who would have otherwise gotten healed by the same amount? (Or is simply damage). Like you're not really curing the damage you're just deferring it onto somebody else? (Either in the future or instantaneously.) Bonus points if it comes from people the caster cares about/allies with. Bonus points if it comes at exactly the worst possible time.There are some paladin spells that allow you to share HP with people like that. Merely taking it from someone else wouldn't be evil... it would have to have some kind of 'unwilling' aspect to it.
Yes, the image I'd gotten was that it would drain it from some poor random soul against their will, with preference for those who the caster might care about and those who are in a jam, such that the caster would be essentially selling them out.
Some good (or rather, eeEEEEEeeevvvvviiiiillllll) suggestions in here. But one weird thing about Infernal Healing is that Abaddon and the Abyss have no equivalent, even though under some of the suggestions in this thread, it would be in their interest to invent one. For an expanded version, make it Fiendish Healing, and the component can be blood from any Outer Planar Outsider that has Fast Healing of at least the value given by the spell (and Unholy Water only works for Infernal Healing, not Greater Infernal Healing, although Enhanced Unholy Water like Water of Lamashtu could work for at least an in-between version of the spell)....
It has to do with the stated motivations of the various fiends in the Golarion campaign world. Remember that infernal healing is in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting line, not the general rules line-- that means the spell as-written is tied to some assumptions about planar cosmology in Golarion.
Devils want mortals' souls. They want to tempt good people into acts of evil, so that in the afterlife, they have more souls for the armies of Hell. Spreading subtle evil through the world to tempt good people into using it is right up their alley.
Demons want mortals' bodies. The seek to spread despair and destruction, and to force people into more blatant acts of evil. As such, a subtle spell like this would not necessarily further their ends. But a demon would certainly not be above offering infernal healing to a mortal if it would further its personal ends, even if the spell is tied to devils. Remember that in Golarion, there is no Blood War between devils and demons. (That's a WotC thing.)
Daemons want the destruction of all existence. They don't care about body or soul-- they want an end to all things. Why would the Horsemen want to provide a spell of succor-- even an evil one?
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I think a lot of people are forgetting the premises in the OP's first post.
1) Evil actions are evil because of their consequences ie they cause harm.
2) Casting an evil spell is an evil act.
Therefore, Infernal Healing should cause some harm. Because it's intended as a temptation, it should be a very small harm and it should be easy to justify. But if Infernal Healing doesn't cause harm, either it wouldn't be evil (violating 2) or evil would be "arbitrary" (violating 1).
Infernal healing could very well be a "first one's free" sort of lure to encourage casters to feel more willing to cast evil spells that are actually harmful in the future. But in that case, it would not itself be an evil act any more than associating with evil people - who might persuade you to do evil things - is an evil act.
For infernal healing, check out the show supernatural (earlier seasons, I forget which) and see what happens to Sam's personality when he consume's demon blood.
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I mean sure you can use evil to do good things but you are still doing something horribly evil. It is like that saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
I find it interesting that you reference Supernatural given the lengths that most of the angels are willing to go to to ensure that their side wins. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, the road to heaven is paved with casual disregard for human life and well-being. And in that respect it's also a great example of the arbitrary good and evil that the OP wants to avoid. (Note: currently watching season 5, there may be future developments I'm not taking into account.)
See, since you are going for flavour here, think about it. You are infusing someone with blood that is literally made from a creature that is physically evil incarnate. It's devil's blood (sometimes unholy water, I know.) and that is from a creature that really is made of evil, if evil was a physical thing you can actually make something with.
The reason the spell is evil is because, well think about it. Yes you are healing them but you are infusing them with the very essence of evil. Even if it is temporary, you are putting evil inside someone.
But what does putting evil inside someone actually do? Premise (1) requires some harm, not just arbitrary "it's evil because it's evil." Now, that shouldn't be hard. Physical evil would be a Hell of a drug. Does it physically hurt them, induce them to commit evil acts, slowly turn them into a tiefling, turn their unborn children into tieflings? Does it result in a small chance that Hell will claim their soul after death, regardless of their actions in life?
What if infernal healing didn't actually provide the healing but instead stole it from some other poor random schmuck who would have otherwise gotten healed by the same amount? (Or is simply damage). Like you're not really curing the damage you're just deferring it onto somebody else? (Either in the future or instantaneously.) Bonus points if it comes from people the caster cares about/allies with. Bonus points if it comes at exactly the worst possible time.
Reminds me of this:
Pehaps the healing come from some where, it increase the sufflering of the dead in hell or it Mills a baby seal.Like, any wound casted by infernal healing is inflicted on the dead in hell, speeding up their process of becoming Lemures? In other words, infernal healing speeds up the rate at which hells armies are formed while also tormenting dead people.
Great minds think alike huh?
Some good (or rather, eeEEEEEeeevvvvviiiiillllll) suggestions in here. But one weird thing about Infernal Healing is that Abaddon and the Abyss have no equivalent, even though under some of the suggestions in this thread, it would be in their interest to invent one. {. . .}It has to do with the stated motivations of the various fiends in the Golarion campaign world. Remember that infernal healing is in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting line, not the general rules line-- that means the spell as-written is tied to some assumptions about planar cosmology in Golarion.
Devils want mortals' souls. {. . .}
Demons want mortals' bodies. {. . .} Remember that in Golarion, there is no Blood War between devils and demons. (That's a WotC thing.)
Daemons want the destruction of all existence. They don't care about body or soul-- they want an end to all things. Why would the Horsemen want to provide a spell of succor-- even an evil one?
Daemons want souls, too. Look up "The Soul Trade" under Daemons. So do Demons, although they allegedly aren't as proficient at manipulating raw soulstuff as Daemons, and Demons have no lack of the concept of temptation.
Now, if we go with some of the ideas above about Infernal Healing/Fiendish Healing infusing the recipient with Evil, this becomes of even more interest to all 3 of the above types of Fiends (and several others). Suppose that every Hit Point of damage healed (and at higher spell levels, lost body parts regenerated) is Fiendish flesh (since that is what has the Fast Healing and/or Regeneration in the first place), whose Fiendish nature doesn't go away (even after the spell ends) until the recipient would have naturally healed up the damage (also, have higher level Good healing be able to undo some of this Fiendish Conversion effect, but unreliably and inefficiently). If the recipient took some kind of damage (such as limb loss or an accursed non-healing wound, or even scar-inducing wounds), then the Fiendish flesh just doesn't go away completely (although it can appear deceptively normal to the average observer, thus making it all the more insidious). Persisting Fiendish flesh not only attracts unwholesome attention (even if covered up, for characters and other creatures able to sense such things), but also confers unwholesome urges which may get too strong to resist -- but with no hard limit below which a character is safe or above which a character is doomed to fall. If a recipient receives so much Fiendish Healing before natural healing removes the Fiendish nature that the recipient would have died without it, then the recipient actually gets morphed into a minor Fiend (or potentially not so minor, if the recipient was high enough level) and is extremely likely to fall to Evil. At this point, any recipient that can overcome the Evil urges was probably something like a Redeemed Fiend anyway, and probably had their own Fast Healing and/or Regeneration to start with.
I never liked how evil clerics essentially lose the ability to fulfill their traditional party role. How about with evil healing, the target must pass the Will save or be staggered for 1 round? This would convey that, unlike good healing, evil healing is more jarring to the healed as sinews knit themselves together and bones snaps back into place.
This option could potentially be offered as an archetype if you wanted to keep the core mechanic.
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Pehaps the healing come from some where, it increase the sufflering of the dead in hell or it Mills a baby seal.So I get healed but someone somewhere that I don't know pays for it?
There's actually a great movie based on this idea.
Infernal Healing has a verbal component as well.
Along with the sacrifice material component it could be a dedication of power to X devil. It could be a verbal forsaking of the powers of non-devils. It could involve a verbal submission to the powers of Hell. It could be a promise to Hell with nothing to enforce compliance so it could be broken easily (inducing knowing lying, a sin).
It could be using the verbal component to do evil. Saying something that will betray another's trust. Saying something hurtful, a little obvious evil that does not compare to the benefits of the healing. Perhaps a criticism of the target or an insult.
I don't support making spells even a little bit evil, and I dislike having spells with such descriptors unless it is for things like Detect or Protect from Alignment
The ramifications of using certain spells (such as Create Undead) should be a purely story, NOT mechanical implication.
irrelevant opinions
Your opinions don't match those of the OP. That's fine. Why did you bother coming into this thread with a title that clearly contradicted your opinions? Does his playstyle affects yours in any way whatsoever?
Irrelevant opinions
Your opinions don't match mine. That's fine. Why did you bother replying to a post with an opinion that clearly contradicted yours? Does my opinion affect your ability to have a discussion in any way whatsoever?
Irrelevant opinions
None of what I said was an opinion.
Why did you bother replying to a post with an opinion that clearly contradicted yours?
Because when people jump into threads to state they disagree with the premise the thread devolves into pointless bickering.
Does my opinion affect your ability to have a discussion in any way whatsoever?
No, but your inability to keep it to yourself does.
The comment was better suited for a general discussion thread, not a suggestions thread. If you feel strongly about the subject then it'd be better to start a thread in general discussion about the topic.
The comment here serves only to derail the discussion away from what the OP asked help with. Simple courtesy.
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There's actually a great movie based on this idea.Pehaps the healing come from some where, it increase the sufflering of the dead in hell or it Mills a baby seal.So I get healed but someone somewhere that I don't know pays for it?
Fixed the link for you. Also, see this link if you want spoilers.
This would convey that, unlike good healing, evil healing is more jarring to the healed as sinews knit themselves together and bones snaps back into place.
This is how I've always had infernal healing play in my games. It's not so much evil evil as just really kind of icky. You know there's something bad going on simply because of the nature of how you're being healed. Where a good old CLW would stitch you up just fine, infernal healing might leave nasty scars as black demon blood ichor sews your skin back together.
Just that feeling of 'Oh. Hmm. That's probably bad. At least I'm not dead, though.'
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You want it to be really Evil?
Every time you cast Infernal Healing, a pointless argument starts on a message board.
Infernal Healing has a verbal component as well.
Along with the sacrifice material component it could be a dedication of power to X devil. It could be a verbal forsaking of the powers of non-devils. It could involve a verbal submission to the powers of Hell. It could be a promise to Hell with nothing to enforce compliance so it could be broken easily (inducing knowing lying, a sin).
It could be using the verbal component to do evil. Saying something that will betray another's trust. Saying something hurtful, a little obvious evil that does not compare to the benefits of the healing. Perhaps a criticism of the target or an insult.
I like these ideas here.
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I haven't really come up with a good idea for infernal healing, though. Other people have made similar threads and suggested "it should take those hit points from someone else in the world somewhere!" but I don't like that idea. I also would rather not give it the same evil rider as the summoning devils one - I think it'd be more interesting to give it its own evil twist. ...
2 negative effects : caster is considered Evil by all abilities and spells, even though his real alignment does not change. So, not only do you detect as evil, but you can be the target of smite evil too ;-)
And : the next non-Evil creature that the caster touches loses the HP healed by the spell and gains the condition (see below), if any. No limit on duration on this effect :-))
1 bonus effect : it removes a lesser condition (shaken, fatigued …) chosen at the time of casting.