The scenario states that when the blessings deck is empty, you win only if the top card of every location deck is an enemy ship. Does this mean that the only time victory is checked for is on the beginning of the last turn? Or can you still win if on the last turn you manage to get the top card of each location to be an enemy ship?
I ask because I was running the scenario solo and here's how the final turn went: I advanced the last card of the blessings deck, emptying it, then checked the top card of each location. An enemy ship was on the top of each location save one, which had two cards remaining. I didn't win, but I wasn't sure if I lost at that point, so I played out the 30th turn. On that turn I reshuffled the last location after my move step per the scenario and encountered the top card, which luckily was the enemy ship. I managed to defeat it, so I put it on the top of the deck (per the scenario rules), which meant the top card of every location deck was an enemy ship.
So did I win or lose the scenario?
What is the actual text of the card, in quote form?
Based on your wording as posted here "When the blessing deck is empty" happens immediately upon flipping the last blessing, and that's when you'd check for victory.
"While the blessing deck is empty" means that you'd be able to check for victory any time during the final turn.
Also, based on your wording, the limit of victory only kicks in for changing during that time, meaning if you defeat any villains earlier than the last turn, you can win that way, too, as the 'when/if' says.
So, the actual rules text on the card would be quite helpful. Sadly, I don't have S&S yet.
This brings up a similar niggle that I noticed way back in "Here Comes The Flood":
When there are no cards in the blessings deck, if the number of allies under this card is at least equal to the number of allies under Black Magga, you win the scenario.
Taken literally it means that you check for victory at the start of the final turn (leaving aside the recent discussion about the final no-blessings sort-of-turn; I mean the final full player turn). Even so, I've always treated the intent of that scenario as being that you play the full 30 turns and then check for victory.
Here's the exact text of the scenario:
Shuffle an Enemy Ship henchman into each location deck. If you defeat and Enemy Ship, put it on top of its location deck.
After your move step, you may examine the top card of your location deck; you may shuffle that deck. If the blessings deck is empty, examine the top card of each location deck. You win the scenario only if each is an Enemy Ship.
Further question of clarification: On the scenario card, the term "Enemy Ship" is a reference to the Enemy Ship henchman, correct? It's not instructing you to place the actual ship card you defeated on top of the location deck, is it?
Further question of clarification: On the scenario card, the term "Enemy Ship" is a reference to the Enemy Ship henchman, correct? It's not instructing you to place the actual ship card you defeated on top of the location deck, is it?
Correct.
The examining part is the same paragraph as the "after your move step", so I'd treat it all as one power. That means that you get to move, examine, and shuffle on the last turn, then check for victory.
That means there are a few options available on the last turn, since the win condition isn't checked for at the start of your turn. You can play cards between "Advance the blessing deck" and "Give a card" as well as between "Give a card" and "Move". You can also play 1 card of each type during any of those steps.
Before your move step, you could try to use some spyglass type cards as a last ditch effort at that location if you aren't sure it already has an enemy ship henchman on top. Then, you can move, presumably to another location you aren't sure of. During your move step at that new location, you can again use spyglass type cards, as well as one last examine and shuffle before you examine all locations for the win condition.
So, while you can't explore on the last turn, you can make an outside shot to win even with 2 locations not having had an enemy ship defeated at them.
Advance the blessing deck
--During this step, each character can play 1 card of each type. Spyglass type cards would be helpful.
*Between steps*
--No limit on cards, so more spyglass type cards can be played here.
Give a card
--During this step, each character can play 1 card of each type. Spyglass type cards would be helpful.
*Between steps*
--No limit on cards, so more spyglass type cards can be played here.
Move
--During this step, each character can play 1 card of each type. Spyglass type cards would be helpful.
Scenario Power: After your move step.
--First, you examine the top card of your location deck. Then, you may shuffle that deck. Then, you check to see if the blessing deck has 0 blessings in it. It does, so then you examine the top card of each location deck. If they are all Enemy Ship henchmen, you win. If not, you don't lose immediately. So try to get some boons if you want, but don't get yourself killed.
All that is my opinion and what I'd do if I played it today, which I can't. :-(
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I feel like you shouldn't be able to do anything during your Move step besides move, and similar steps like only advancing the Blessing during that step, and no other actions. I know the rules allow it, but situations like this one really make me feel like outside of the exploration phase, you shouldn't be playing anything that doesn't directly apply to the step.
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Hold on ...
Shuffle an Enemy Ship henchman into each location deck. If you defeat an Enemy Ship, put it on top of its location deck.
After your move step, you may examine the top card of your location deck; you may shuffle that deck. If the blessings deck is empty, examine the top card of each location deck. You win the scenario only if each is an Enemy Ship.
The way I'm reading this is that you shuffle an Enemy Ship henchman into each location. If you defeat the Enemy Ship then it goes on top of the location deck (face down).
After your move step (not just the last move step), you may examine the top card of your location; you may then shuffle that deck.
At that point, you can continue your turn, i.e. explore, etc.
But at this point, if the blessings deck is empty, examine the top card of each location deck. You win the scenario only if each is an Enemy Ship.
So to me, it seems like the move step has an extra power attached to it (not just the last turn!) throughout the scenario. And, in fact, you do NOT have to defeat all the Enemy Ships ... you just have to have them on top of the location decks. Great scenario for scouting.
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That's exactly right. You check the top of your location, then optionally shuffle. Immediately after, if the blessings deck is empty, check the top of ALL locations. You win or lose based on this last examination. You still finish your turn if you didn't win though. Nothing says you immediately lose if they aren't all ships, you just don't win and carry on as usual with no way to win.
Unfortunately, compared to Runelords, S&S is hurting for scouts. If it's the final turn and you don't have a ship on top of your deck, shuffle it and hope it ends up on top and that the other decks have them on top as well.
Hold on ...
Shuffle an Enemy Ship henchman into each location deck. If you defeat an Enemy Ship, put it on top of its location deck.
After your move step, you may examine the top card of your location deck; you may shuffle that deck. If the blessings deck is empty, examine the top card of each location deck. You win the scenario only if each is an Enemy Ship.
The way I'm reading this is that you shuffle an Enemy Ship henchman into each location. If you defeat the Enemy Ship then it goes on top of the location deck (face down).
After your move step (not just the last move step), you may examine the top card of your location; you may then shuffle that deck.
At that point, you can continue your turn, i.e. explore, etc.
But at this point, if the blessings deck is empty, examine the top card of each location deck. You win the scenario only if each is an Enemy Ship.
So to me, it seems like the move step has an extra power attached to it (not just the last turn!) throughout the scenario. And, in fact, you do NOT have to defeat all the Enemy Ships ... you just have to have them on top of the location decks. Great scenario for scouting.
Right, which is why I mentioned spyglass. You can use it to put an Enemy Ship on top without having to even encounter the Enemy Ship.
Also note that if any time you do encounter the Enemy Ship henchman, it means you might have been better off not encountering that card. Granted, you might not have known it was the next card, but by not encountering it, it would still have been the top card. But by encountering it, you make it possible you might fail to defeat it and shuffle it back into the deck.
Based on the exact card wording, there's only one decision the game makes, and that's the decision to win or not.
If, after you move, there are no blessings in the blessings deck (which will be true the entire final turn of the game), then you check the top card of each location. If they're all ships, you win.
Otherwise, your turn continues as normal, but your chance to win is now passed. You can complete your turn, but as it is the final round and you have no other way to win (it seems like there is no villain in this scenario), and when it is the next person's turn to go, there's no blessing to flip, so it's a loss immediately.
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OK Mike is gonna kill me, but this is my weekly new French can of worms...
Question :
OK a location deck is a location deck even if empty. We all know that.
However we also know that a rule/power is not to be taken into account if there is nothing to apply it to (e. g. if another chracter at you location must do something and you are alone).
So my point is: do you really need to fulfill the "examine the top card of each location deck" condition if there is no top card on the location deck (i. e. the deck is empty)?
If it was written "examine each location deck", that would always be possible, since the deck always exists. But since the sentence refer to a non existent card... I would tend to consider the sentence to be non-active and empty locations to not be taken into accounts.
Nice one no?
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It would be nice, but no.
"You win the scenario only if each is an Enemy Ship." When instructed to examine the top card of the empty location deck, ignoring that instructions means you don't have to sit there for all eternity waiting for a quark to slip out of sequence so a card spontaneously appears.
But that doesn't change the next sentence: "You win the scenario only if each is an Enemy Ship." Ask this question: "Is the top card of each location deck an enemy ship?" If the answer is "yes", you win. If the answer is "no", you lose. And a location deck is a location deck even when empty, so when there isn't one there the top card of that location deck isn't an enemy henchman.
It would be nice, but no.
"You win the scenario only if each is an Enemy Ship." When instructed to examine the top card of the empty location deck, ignoring that instructions means you don't have to sit there for all eternity waiting for a quark to slip out of sequence so a card spontaneously appears.
But that doesn't change the next sentence: "You win the scenario only if each is an Enemy Ship." Ask this question: "Is the top card of each location deck an enemy ship?" If the answer is "yes", you win. If the answer is "no", you lose. And a location deck is a location deck even when empty, so when there isn't one there the top card of that location deck isn't an enemy henchman.
I see your point Hawk... which is very valid as usual. And surely was indeed the designers' intentions.
However I would have been 100% convinced if it was written as :
If at any time while the blessings deck is empty the top card of each location deck is an Enemy Ship, you win the scenario.
Because that wouldn't have included the "examine the top card" part.
See for example the Bizarre Triangle Scenario. It just says you win if the 2 others are in the same location, it doesn't refer to "examine". It's clearer - although it creates another issue (how do you know? do you reshuffle if you don't find them?)
I would hope it goes without saying that you shouldn't close any locations in this scenario if you want to be able to win.
This seems almost impossible for two players to do for all 8 locations. Are we 100% sure it shouldn't read "when you would banish the Enemy Ship henchman..."?
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I don't have the card in front of me, so maybe I'm missing something, but why would you have 8 locations with 2 players? If the scenario doesn't tell you to do so, then whether or not that is impossible 100% irrelevant to what the card should say since playing that way is a house rule. If it does, I still don't see it as much of a problem, it just means you're holding your blessings and allies more for explores than usual (just like larger groups tend to do on a regular basis)
All 8 locations list Players 1-6
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Just finished it with my wife and got lucky that the Enemy Ship was already the top cqrd at two locations. I was playing Alahazra, so was able to find those wihout ever moving to those locations.
Perhaps "almost impossible" was inaccurate, but "requires luck" seems about right.
There are other henchman cards in each deck. It's possible to close a location without ever encountering the Enemy Ship. You "banish" all the cards in a location deck when you close it.
OK so there are still the regular henchman. Fair enough. Yup, I'd definitely say you just don't close in this one. It wouldn't be remotely close to the weirdest thing we've seen in this game.
It's part of the challenge. Six of the other henchmen direct you to shuffle them into a random deck if you don't defeat it, which has the potential of screwing up a deck where you got an enemy ship on top.
I don't have this scenario yet, but reading the above raises this question:
Shuffle an Enemy Ship henchman into each location deck. If you defeat an Enemy Ship, put it on top of its location deck.
If you defeat an Enemy Ship, two effects trigger: (1) The Enemy Ship says you can attempt to close the location, and (2) the scenario says to put the Enemy Ship on top of its location deck.
Is there any reason you can't choose to do them in that order? That is, close the location, and assuming you succeed, return the Enemy Ship to the (closed, empty) location deck. I'd think that would make it quite a bit easier to keep the card on top.
I don't have this scenario yet, but reading the above raises this question:
Shuffle an Enemy Ship henchman into each location deck. If you defeat an Enemy Ship, put it on top of its location deck.
If you defeat an Enemy Ship, two effects trigger: (1) The Enemy Ship says you can attempt to close the location, and (2) the scenario says to put the Enemy Ship on top of its location deck.
Is there any reason you can't choose to do them in that order? That is, close the location, and assuming you succeed, return the Enemy Ship to the (closed, empty) location deck. I'd think that would make it quite a bit easier to keep the card on top.
I would agree. But that is my first opinion (I'll have to wait to have all cards in hands). I refer to the golden rule that says you have to finish what you are currently doing before getting to the next point.
So OK I finish "defeating" the Enemy ship (I defeat the actual ship card, then go back to the "Enemy Ship" henchman card and consider it defeated). then what. As you say 2 new "things" are activated and I have to process one then the other.
As per the golden rule, if there was contradiction between the two, the scenario would take precedence over the Henchman card and you would only do the scenario part. But it's not the case since indeed you can always close the location and put the henchman on top of the location deck, whatever the order.
So then for me another rule kicks in : if different things happen at the same time (like all things happening "at the start of your turn" or "after your move step" and so on), the you get to chose in which order you do them.
In which case obviously in that scenario you can say :
OK I have to do two things.
I decide to try to close first.
Whatever the closing result (once all the "when closing" things are done), I will have to put the henchman back on top of the (may be empty) location deck.
Pretty much the same issue as with summoned cards. When dealing with the summoned card, you process is completely, and then (whatever has happened), you have to get back to the summoning card/power and finish processing it. Then you look at other powers/cards that may have been triggered.
So henchman is defeated. First read the henchman card. Says I can close. Ok I process closing. This sends henchman to the box. But then scenario card trigers that says to put back henchman on top. I don't see what in the rules would make that not happening. But it's friday and I'm tired :-)
You can decide the order, but the consequences of choosing to close first would also mean that the Enemy Ship henchman is banished.
Closing a Location If you didn’t find any villains, perform the When Permanently Closed effect: First, apply any effects that say “before closing.” Then banish all of the cards from the location deck; it is now closed.
So, you banish "all of the cards from the location deck". And the Enemy Ship henchman never stops being a card from the location deck. So you would also banish it. And thus you'd lose.
So no matter which order you'd perform them in, you'd banish the Enemy Ship henchman if you closed the location.
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On the one hand, it's a lot of locations for 1-2 players - on the other, you don't have to worry about any closing requirements. So any resources you would use to close decks can be spent on extra explores.
Also keep in mind that you don't have to encounter the enemy ships - if you scout that one is on top of its deck, there is no reason to actually encounter it unless you want plunder. You could just leave it there.
If you discover an enemy ship on the bottom, you can use Buoyancy to bring it to the top and just leave it.
Basically, it's a race, not necessarily a bunch of combats, so you can use all the deck scouting and manipulation at your disposal to come in first, without "fighting" everybody on the way there.
...And the Enemy Ship henchman never stops being a card from the location deck....
Actually there you have the one convincing valid point (kudos Hawk as usual), if you reverse it : if I close, the henchman stops being part of the location deck. Therefore I cannot later place it after on top of ITS location deck.
The "close" then "place on top" would have worked though if it was written "place it on the top of the location deck it came from, if any."
OK now I can go back to bed. Sorry my head was messy (we all have the flu here in France these days).
Good week-end Hawk.
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So my group played this scenario last night and an interesting thing happened near the end. We got the top card of all of the decks to be an enemy ship henchman with about 4 turns to go. Since you can't win the scenario until the blessings deck is empty, one of the locations (the Fog Bank, ironically) had only the enemy ship in it, and defeating an enemy ship means you put the card back on top of the location deck...
...let's just say that the reign of terror conducted by the Thresher and her crew will go down in the annals of Shackles legend as we marauded and pillaged our way through unsuspecting shipping. I think we raided the poor Truewind a near half-dozen times. We ended up with 24 plunder cards in the end and never will it be more fitting that this was the first scenario for our group during which the Jolly Roger was flown.
You can decide the order, but the consequences of choosing to close first would also mean that the Enemy Ship henchman is banished.
Closing a Location If you didn’t find any villains, perform the When Permanently Closed effect: First, apply any effects that say “before closing.” Then banish all of the cards from the location deck; it is now closed.So, you banish "all of the cards from the location deck". And the Enemy Ship henchman never stops being a card from the location deck. So you would also banish it. And thus you'd lose.
So no matter which order you'd perform them in, you'd banish the Enemy Ship henchman if you closed the location.
Sounds right, but I wonder if that's what the intent was. Seems weird that closing a location would make you lose.
I'm pretty sure it is what is intended. The other henchman can shuffle into a random open location if undefeated. The fact that you have to keep the locations open puts pressure on you to not lose to those other henchmen.
Actually the text on the scenario card doesn't even technically establish a win condition at all. In fact, all it does is tell you that you cannot win UNLESS there are enemy ships on the top of each location deck when the blessing deck is empty. It does NOT say that you automatically win when there are enemy ships on top of each location deck when the blessing deck is empty. The word "only" should be removed from the text. Or to make it even clearer:
"If each is an enemy ship, then you immediately win the scenario."
Here comes a boring logic lesson to prove this.
Here is the original text:
"You win the scenario only if each is an enemy ship."
The problem is that it says "only if". "Only if" establishes a necessary condition rather than a sufficient condition. Compare these:
"There is a fire in the house ONLY IF there is oxygen in the house."
"There is a fire in the house IF there is oxygen in the house."
The first is true, the second is false. The first sentence says that oxygen is NECESSARY for a fire (which is true), and the second sentence says that oxygen is SUFFICIENT for a fire (which is false--you also need fuel and a heat source).
So, the text on the card establishes that having all enemy ships on top of the location decks is NECESSARY for winning the scenario, but it does not say that having all enemy ships on top of the location decks is SUFFICIENT for winning the scenario. Presumably, the intention was to say that having all enemy ships on top of each location deck when the blessing deck is empty is BOTH NECESSARY AND SUFFICIENT, since it seems that the intention is to say that this condition is ONE WAY to win (it is a sufficient condition), AND you cannot win without it (it is a necessary condition).
If that was the intention, then the scenario card should say:
"You win the scenario IF AND ONLY IF each is an enemy ship."
But only logicians would appreciate wording like that. Fortunately, since there is no villain in the scenario, the only other possible way to win is automatically ruled out. Therefore, the text need only supply a sufficient condition for winning, like so:
"You win the scenario IF each is an enemy ship."
Or to put it more colloquially (conditionals are usually easier to understand if the antecedent--the "if" part--comes before the consequent--the "then" part):
"If each is an enemy ship, then you immediately win the scenario."
I think it was wrong. You check after your move step, which is before your explore step. So if they aren't there after your move step, you can't win. You can still explore and try to get some more boons though. But you don't get to check the locations again.
We're looking at it for the "number of Enemy Ships" issue, so we will look at other aspects as well. It likely will take a while, because a lot of Wrath is moving through our hands in the next few days.
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The biggest issue we had with this was when becalmed came up (we actually got it twice) and we quickly realized that we had to overspend blessings to ensure that it didn't happen. If you lose that check, the game becomes unwinnable as it stays on top of the deck until the deck is empty, and obviously you can't do that if you need an enemy ship in the location to win.
Is Becalmed placed next to the location? If so, I wouldn't consider it the top card of the location deck.
Curious how people feel about the difficulty of this one, now that it's been out for a while. We tried it for the first time and lost pretty thoroughly (only set up 5 locations, even with Damiel's final Tot Flask/Potion of Flying mega turn at the end), though some of that was due to our hubris--Jirelle found an Enemy ship by peeking at the card and, since her move step was over, we decided she might as well try to defeat it and nab us another plunder. What, is Jirelle going to lose to a ship?
Turns out yes, when we have no blessings to help her, she doesn't have her bandana for rerolls, and she rolls a 3 against it when she only needs a 4. So the enemy ship got shuffled back into location and we lost four or five turns digging it back out.
Still, I don't know if we could've won anyway. Looking at the remaining cards in the last three decks, the Enemy Ships were pretty deep in each one. Those four turns might not've made a difference.
Loved the Hurricane Winds barriers. Damiel never found Find Traps so useful, and just adored seeing a difficult nautical barrier based on Intelligence instead of forcing him down the Wisdom/Survival route. We always threw blessings at them when we had them, the fear of shuffling them into an already set-up location is a great bit of tension before you see how the dice sort out.
Definitely going to try it again to see how the luck hashes out. Was sad to see that giant stack of plunder go (With Pirate Hunting and Goblin Keehauling showing up again, we probably had about 14 cards under there) but none of them were any good. I'll take comfort that we got rid of a couple light crossbows, longswords, and rapiers and look forward to our next try. :D
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Hmm, that brings up a point I hadn't thought of before - are plunder cards you can't claim because you failed the scenario banished or just returned to the box?
Clearly plunder cards you claim but no one uses are just like any other gained cards - just returned to the box when rebuilding.
I imagine they're just returned to the box, the ways you banish a card are fairly few. We don't make a point of skirting the rules about it on purpose, but I we're probably about 50-50 in differentiating between "banish" and "return to the box" when it comes down to it. Figure it about evens out between banishing weak boons and weak banes, since we apply the same rules to both (if a location isn't closed when the scenario ends, shouldn't that crappy Electric Eel go back into the box, not be banished?). Damiel got a large chest and it was a pain in the butt constantly healing back Light Crossbows, Rapiers, and Trident +1s instead of his discarded blessings, isn't that punishment enough? :D
Lacking anything that says you banish the card, anything left over is just returned to the box. Nothing says to banish unused plunder cards (and really, they become just like any other card you acquired once you get to rebuilding your deck), so they are just returned to the box.
If you win the scenario, treat any plunder cards under your ship as you do loot; if you lose the scenario, put them back in the box.
Loot you didn't keep isn't banished, just put back in the box. And plunder from a lost scenario is clearly listed as being simply put back in the box, not banished.
Hmm, that brings up a point I hadn't thought of before - are plunder cards you can't claim because you failed the scenario banished or just returned to the box?
I'm not sure I understand, if the scenario is lost, isn't banishing and returning to the box the same thing?
A banished card can potentially be removed from the game starting in adventure 3. A card that is returned to the box, but not technically banished, doesn't meet the criteria for removal.
A banished card can potentially be removed from the game starting in adventure 3. A card that is returned to the box, but not technically banished, doesn't meet the criteria for removal.
Oh okay. I thought the question was about something else.
Just played this scenario and contrary to most everyone else in this thread I'm not certain that you are supposed to check for the win condition after the move/examine/shuffle. I know the consensus is that because the "If the blessing deck is empty..." text is in the same paragraph as the text for move/examine/shuffle that the two are related. However when I read it I feel the check for victory doesn't have anything to do with the move/examine/shuffle text.
I see three options
1) As soon as the blessing deck is empty you check for victory (essentially top of turn 30, so you only get 29 turns.)
2) As soon as you complete the move/examine/shuffle and the blessing deck is empty (middle of turn 30 so you get 29.5 turns.)
3) As soon as you'd have to flip a blessing and there are none you check for victory (get full 30 turns.)
By the text as written on the card 1 and 2 have the stronger argument.
May I ask why people believe the check for victory condition must be tied to the move/examine/shuffle text just because they are part of the same paragraph? Is this a meta rule that has come up before that I'm unaware of? Curious.
My friend and I completed this already in our run playing it safe without closing locations and before turns 29-30, but still I question a lot of what's being brought up here. My concerns are twofold:
1) Closing the locations during this scenario.
I understand the arguments folks are making in terms of what constitutes what is and is not a deck, but I start to think the design intent was that closing locations was fine for this scenario. Enemy Ship the card has printed on it that it allows you to close the location but that doesn't count since it's used in plenty of other scenarios. What's odd though is that all of the other henchmen (Hurricane Winds, etc) all allow you to close the location after defeating them. I find this line of reasoning compelling especially since the rulebook makes it a point to say that unless a henchman card specifically tells you you're allowed to close it, you can't. Why would these henchmen all have this printed on them if you're not supposed to close any locations? To knowingly try to trick the player into failure? If the henchmen unique to The Free Captains' Regatta all come with this distinction it's either an oversight on the design of the henchmen or scenario, or allowed in this scenario. I'm curious to find out what was the intent.
2) When the scenario ends.
This is a lot more of a case of design intent vs rules RAW (read as written). While the rules may read that the game may end at the start or the middle of the final turn, I imagine the designers probably wouldn't want to skip the last player's turn. It would feel pretty dumb if, say, I was the last player and got cheated out of my turn because the game decides HOLD UP BLESSINGS DECK IS EMPTY EVERYONE OFF THE BUS. This one's a bit tougher to argue on my end but still, I kinda think the last player would usually feel kinda salty if their last turn got skipped, just for being unfortunate enough to be the last player in turn order which I'd imagine is usually something fully out of their control (assuming folks determine starting player randomly like we do). Again, I'm curious to find out what the intent is here.
Then again that's just my two cents. Usually don't post anything in any of these and just read to get more info but... figured I'd chime in and see what happened. I uh... also may have forgotten what most of the previous posts have mentioned so if any of this was already brought up then hoo boy will I feel dumb, feel free to disregard anything I've said.