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Long commutes and broken links.
Here's te Hexcrafter Optimization guide with the 3 most effective natural attack builds (Last 5 pages).
Warlock- The complete guide for dealing with the devil
But for those who choose not to go through the whole guide here is one of the more straightforward builds.
This Hexcrafter is mostly oriented on Melee damage via using Magic to acquire Natural Attacks to maximize his channeled touch spells. This build works best as a standard strength based hexcrafter since his focus is on using his natural attacks to deliver his spells this is the least weapon focused Hexcrafter out there and should be avoided by the Staff Magus and Blade Bound archetypes.
Half-Orc & Half-Elf make the best normal races for this build (Strength based Tieflings are second place due to not being able to use enlarge person spells but that's not a MAJOR deal and Tengu are best for any game not expected to get past 7th level).
Trait: Magical Lineage (Frostbite), Wayang Spell hunter (shocking grasp)
1- Arcane pool, cantrips, spell combat, Rime Spell
2- Spellstrike
3- Arcana: Arcane Accuracy, Enforcer
4- Hex Magus: Prehensile Hair
5- Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise; Power Attack
6- Hex Arcana: Flight
7-Knowledge Pool, Medium Armor, Intensify Spell
8-Improved Spell Combat
9-Arcana-Hasted Assault, Eldritch Claws
10-Fighter Training
11- Spell Recall, Extra Arcana – Accurate Strikes
12- Hex Arcana- Ice Tomb
13- Heavy Armor, Quicken Spell
14 Greater Spell Combat
15- Spell Perfection, Arcana – Hex: Retribution
16- Counterstrike
17- Extra Arcana – Accursed Strike (Use Bestow Curse:Amnesia)
18- Hex Arcana- Summon Spirit
19- Greater Spell Access, <undecided>
20- True Magus
How it Plays:
From 1st through 4th levels this build focuses on making use of the Stonefist/FrostBite spell combo to maximize the number of charges and melee damage the Magi can dish out each round. (You’ll be averaging 2D6 +str +level each hit and can routinely get 2-3 attacks a round by 4th level)
From 4th till 7th level you’ll be dedicated to using the Alter Self spell to assume the form of a Trogolodyte. This gives you 3 natural attacks a round (4 with spell-combat) and lets’ you dish out a significant amount of damage each round and can easily last for more than 1 combat.
From 7th through 10th level you’ll be using the monstrous Humanoid I spell to assume the shape of either the Four-Armed Sahuagin Mutant (5 attacks & darkvision), the Charda (Five attacks, swim but Small sized), the regular Gargoyle (4 natural attacks, Darkvison & Flight) or the Witchwyrd (also 4 nat attacks & Darkvision). Choose which one based on your specific encounter needs.
From 10th on you'll be focused on just using the Monstrous Humanoid II spell to assume the Calikang form as much as possible (or when space is an issue using the Four-Armed Sahuagin Mutant or Charda form) pending new monstrous forms being introduced since nothing else really comes close to it in terms of damage output, maneuverability and special abilities.
Your weapon will spend most of its time hanging from your hip so don’t invest much cash into it instead spend your funds on Amulet’s of Might Fist instead (I recommend at least 2 of them, swapping based on need).
In general you shift into a Form with multiple natural attacks, say a Gargoyle for example, and then close and use the Frostbite spell. From this point on every round you can burn an arcane pool point to add your Int bous to your attack bonus for normal weapon damage + 1D6 cold + CL in non-lethal damage and Fatigue as well as Entangle the target(s) because of the Rime Spell metamagic. That is usually enough non-lethal damage to knock most things out in a round and if it lives being entangled lets you 5ft away and it can’t follow you to retaliate. Also each successful hit will allow you to Intimidate the target for the Shaken condition.
At higher levels You’ll replace the Arcane Accuracy with Accurate Strikes to resolve all your attacks against Touch AC while power attacking and using your AoMF to drop an Intensified Shocking Grasp on each target you’re fighting. At this point you should have 2 touch spells running for each attack (Frostbite & Chill Touch from wand) stacking with your regular weapon damage and the elemental effect from your AoMF. On average you should be doing 4D6 +str +level +PA bonus on 6-8 attacks each round all at full Bab against touch AC.
Nothing should live through any full attack you unleash.
This is the basic Hexcrafter natural build and is the most basic and least damag focused of the three and routinely hits for 4D6 +str +level +PA bonus on 6-8 attacks each round all at full Bab against touch AC.
That averages out to 198-264 damage a round while entangling and fatiguing the target before adding in the spike damage/effect from whatever spell the Magus has decided to load into the AoMF.
If you choose to go to the other end of the spectrum of Natural Weapon Magus builds then you run into the Defiler builds who who on any single target fight can one round any opponent in the game no matter what they are. That's a cheesy build but auto grapple builds that at 7th level can inflict Grappled, Staggered, Fatigued, Entangled, Prone and Shaken onto a target with a single standard action while doing Double INT bonus in damage and triple power attack bonus. Not one I advise players to use but legal and very effective when needed.
Long commutes and broken links.
Here's te Hexcrafter Optimization guide with the 3 most effective natural attack builds (Last 5 pages).
Warlock- The complete guide for dealing with the devil
But for those who choose not to go through the whole guide here is one of the more straightforward builds.
** spoiler omitted **...
thats really cool, but is a good natural attacker possible without the hexcrafter archetype? the only reason i probably wouldnt be able to go with that is due to the fact Eldritch Scion, a vital piece of both backstory and character, replaces spell recall and by extension removes access to hexcrafter sadly :(
as im reading through this i can see that prehensile hair is replaced quite easily with the claws (they do 1d6 each base, so thats not bad) the flight gets replaced first magically by the fly spell and then by the ability to actually grow wings for a short while at 12th, which become permanent at 17th
however in the end i will lose ice tomb, summon spirit, retribution and accursed strike without any real match :/
also i forgot to mention that i am an Angel-Blooded Aasimar, so that means i get Alter Self 1/day as a spell-like ability
*sigh* i wish i was good at spell selection so i didnt have to stick to spontaneous casters
Hexcrafter's not actually doing anything for his natural attack setup. You're fine without it if you like the setup-- though it has issues.
*Shrug* It is hands-down the best Magus archetype, with its only real competition coming from Kensai (and sort-of Fiend Flayer, which has the advantage of replacing absolutely nothing).
Though, if you want to run it, maybe talk to your GM about letting you switch to a spontaneous caster with one of the other archetypes. Mine let me; I have a spontaneous, Int-based casting Kensai in a game right now.
It's not advantageous for you-- quite the opposite in fact since Spontaneous Metafocus becomes a feat tax if you want to make use of any Metamagic (which is something every Magus ever wants to do).
i dont think the GM really wants to do any favors for me, i get the feeling he is slightly irritated by me sometimes :/
also what issues does it have?
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FIRST you don't need natural spellcombat for claws, those are already hand based weapons so automatically work with spellcombat/spellstrike. Natural spellcombat is for natural attacks that aren't hand based (like Bites, Gores, Pincers, etc.) As for it only allowing you 1 natural attack a round, well that's just completely wrong.
A magus using spellcombat can attack with ALL their hand based weapons as well as any natural attack they defined with natural spell combat.
Not quite. Spell combat requires that you wield a spell in your off hand, which means you can only use one of your hand based weapons. You can't spell combat with two daggers, you can't spell combat with two claws.
FOURTH, some of you really need to re-read the rules for touch spells. ANY offensive touch spell allows you to cast then move and attack. Base rules allow you to swap that with a natural attack. Natural Weapon Magi don't even need spellstrike at all as long as they focus on just their natural weapons.
It's my understanding that delivering a touch spell through a natural weapon normally (without spellstrike) requires you to be holding the charge from a previous round, and that the free touch you get in the first round (when you can cast as a standard, move, and deliver as a free action) only works for a touch.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
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I had the long version a few posts above, but the biggest one is that he never takes Natural Spell Combat, which makes some of his forms nigh-useless when using Spell Combat, though most are just "marginally less useful". Calikang works out fine (probably, see below), which is the most useful of them, so it's not all bad.
Second problem is that Spell Combat specifies singular weapons in a few places. How this pans out, then, is dependent on the GM and how they feel about four-armed characters. It could be ruled, by the letter of the rules, that Spell Combat specifying a singular weapon means you would require another dose of Natural Spell Combat to use additional attacks with it, even if you have four or more hands with natural weapons. I don't think I would rule it that way... but I'm not your GM.
Third problem is that Enforcer, part of the Frostbite setup, says that when you deal nonlethal damage with a weapon its effect activates. The standard method of activating it is with Frostbite, which is a spell that does nonlethal damage. It's delivered through a weapon, yes, but the actual nonlethal damage is coming from a spell. Again-- it's something to ask your GM about.
I'm also not a fan of a number of the Arcana/Hex choices but that's a personal thing. It's a very different fighting style from my own Hexcrafter, but that one is built around Unarmed Strikes and Hex Strike.
The reason natural spell combat was never taken is A). this is an old build from before that was available and B). it was never needed since most all your attacks are using hands which don't need that Arcana. That arcana is only required to use the natural attacks the round the spell is cast AND you are using non-hand based natural weapons.
As for the enforcer question it's a non-issue. Either your GM will allow it as is or you'll burn 4,000GP for an AoMF with the Merciful enchant and go from there (I spend 8,000 to make a +2 amulet for merciful & spell storing myself but that's not a significant amount of money).
Finally Spell combat has ALWAYS stated that you get to make all your attacks with your other hand no matter how many hands you have.
When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?
Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
That's why the calikang is the king of forms for Magi, it has 6 hands. You give up 1 hand to cast the spell but since spell combat gives you an extra attack (when casting touch spells) one of your other hands gets to attack twice.
Also I made a mistake on the Defiler part of that post. It's not double INT triple Power, it's 4.5x INT and 9 times power attack bonus. It's minimum damage before adding in spell damage and AoMF is well over 100 damage a round, through on the spell damage and AoMF effect and it's usually around 200 pt's of damage on average.
@kestral, any build that actually makes Unarmed strike/hex strike worthwhile interests me. I have never been able to make that combo worthwhile no matter how I've crunched it. I'm interested in how you've built it to be functional, care to share?
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FIRST you don't need natural spellcombat for claws, those are already hand based weapons so automatically work with spellcombat/spellstrike. Natural spellcombat is for natural attacks that aren't hand based (like Bites, Gores, Pincers, etc.) As for it only allowing you 1 natural attack a round, well that's just completely wrong.
A magus using spellcombat can attack with ALL their hand based weapons as well as any natural attack they defined with natural spell combat.Not quite. Spell combat requires that you wield a spell in your off hand, which means you can only use one of your hand based weapons. You can't spell combat with two daggers, you can't spell combat with two claws.
FOURTH, some of you really need to re-read the rules for touch spells. ANY offensive touch spell allows you to cast then move and attack. Base rules allow you to swap that with a natural attack. Natural Weapon Magi don't even need spellstrike at all as long as they focus on just their natural weapons.It's my understanding that delivering a touch spell through a natural weapon normally (without spellstrike) requires you to be holding the charge from a previous round, and that the free touch you get in the first round (when you can cast as a standard, move, and deliver as a free action) only works for a touch.
** spoiler omitted **...
Don't forget casting a touch spell with spell combat grants you an extra attack with your hand. You give up 1 of your hand based attacks but get to make 2 an extra attack with the other. It's pretty much a wash when it comes to natural attacks.
.For holding a touch spell that quote comes into effect BUT there is another errata that makes this a non issue.
Can a magus use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat. So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal
Anytime a Caster touches anything other than his weapon with a touch spell active the spell goes off. Swinging a claw and hitting the target counts as touching and triggers the spell.
Natural weapon builds are AWESOME for any caster focused on touch spells, Magi just have a LOT of advantages to make it extra awesome.
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FIRST you don't need natural spellcombat for claws, those are already hand based weapons so automatically work with spellcombat/spellstrike. Natural spellcombat is for natural attacks that aren't hand based (like Bites, Gores, Pincers, etc.) As for it only allowing you 1 natural attack a round, well that's just completely wrong.
A magus using spellcombat can attack with ALL their hand based weapons as well as any natural attack they defined with natural spell combat.Not quite. Spell combat requires that you wield a spell in your off hand, which means you can only use one of your hand based weapons. You can't spell combat with two daggers, you can't spell combat with two claws.
FOURTH, some of you really need to re-read the rules for touch spells. ANY offensive touch spell allows you to cast then move and attack. Base rules allow you to swap that with a natural attack. Natural Weapon Magi don't even need spellstrike at all as long as they focus on just their natural weapons.It's my understanding that delivering a touch spell through a natural weapon normally (without spellstrike) requires you to be holding the charge from a previous round, and that the free touch you get in the first round (when you can cast as a standard, move, and deliver as a free action) only works for a touch.
** spoiler omitted **...
Weirdo is right, Mathwei is only spewing half-truths. For spell combat one hand is wielding a weapon the other is wielding a spell. You cannot do claw (main), claw (off), spell + claw (main) in a single turn.
Also, casting a touch spell in combat gives you a free touch attack. You can also deliver touch spells via natural attacks, but casting a touch spell does not give you a free natural attack. The only exception is if you're a magus--then you can use a natural attack. Normally you have to wait til following rounds to deliver spells with natural attacks.
This is even plainly described in the spellstrike text, you don't even need to be familiar with touch spells
whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell
And just because you're in a different form doesn't mean you can bypass the need for Natural Spell Combat. You still need natural spell combat if your main hand isn't a claw. You can't add in the rest of your natural attacks "for free" without natural spell combat. Unless you're talking about "trading rounds" where one round you cast a multi-charge touch spell and the next round you full attack...
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FIRST you don't need natural spellcombat for claws, those are already hand based weapons so automatically work with spellcombat/spellstrike. Natural spellcombat is for natural attacks that aren't hand based (like Bites, Gores, Pincers, etc.) As for it only allowing you 1 natural attack a round, well that's just completely wrong.
A magus using spellcombat can attack with ALL their hand based weapons as well as any natural attack they defined with natural spell combat.Not quite. Spell combat requires that you wield a spell in your off hand, which means you can only use one of your hand based weapons. You can't spell combat with two daggers, you can't spell combat with two claws.
FOURTH, some of you really need to re-read the rules for touch spells. ANY offensive touch spell allows you to cast then move and attack. Base rules allow you to swap that with a natural attack. Natural Weapon Magi don't even need spellstrike at all as long as they focus on just their natural weapons.It's my understanding that delivering a touch spell through a natural weapon normally (without spellstrike) requires you to be holding the charge from a previous round, and that the free touch you get in the first round (when you can cast as a standard, move, and deliver as a free action) only works for a touch.
** spoiler omitted **...
Weirdo is right, Mathwei is only spewing half-truths. For spell combat one hand is wielding a weapon the other is wielding a spell. You cannot do claw (main), claw (off), spell + claw (main) in a single turn.
Also, casting a touch spell in combat gives you a free touch attack. You can also deliver touch spells via natural attacks, but casting a touch spell does not give you a free natural attack. The only exception is if you're a magus--then you can use a natural attack. Normally you have to wait til following rounds to deliver spells with natural attacks.
This is even plainly...
OK, I see where the issue is, You haven't kept up with the faq updates on spellcombat and Magi. Lets address the points where you are mistaken.
A). Spellcombat doesn't restrict you to only attacking with your main hand. Spellcombat was errata'd to function as a full attack action here:
Yes (revised 9/9/13) This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling did not allow the extra attack from haste when using spell combat.
Since it is considered a full attack action you get to make ALL of your legal attacks possible that round as long as the fulfil the requirement of being a hand based attack or have been flagged as one by the natural spellcombat arcana.
B). You do not need to take natural spellcombat for Claws or Slam attacks, ever. Those natural weapons have been officially stated as working with spellcombat normally and don't need any extra rules to channel the spell..
Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
C). Using touch spells through natural attacks can be done the same round they are cast. This is addressed in the spellstrike rules you just quoted.
whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell.
See where it says ANY weapon? As the previous faq quote just directly said that all natural attacks are light, 1-handed weapons that makes them a valid choice for spellstrike allowing you to use any of them as a delivery method for that spell.
I have multiple faq posts showing how these rules work. There's also about a dozen direct Developer quotes agreeing with my explanation on how this works as well. Now if you have anything to show that your ideas are correct and mine is wrong I'd be happy to see them.
@Hazrond
Before you go much further into building your Magus I'm going to give you some advice that should really hammer home what a Magi is.
"Magi are casters who know how to fight, not fighters who can cast."
Think on that for a bit, Magi can't really wear real armor for most of the game, have rogue Hit Points, Rogue Base attack bonus (but worse since they suffer a -2 to hit on all their best attacks), Cleric saves and Wizard stat requirements. They are not frontline fighters or meatshields. Trying to build a basic magus like a fighter means you are going to be hurting for most of the game.
Int is your most important stat, it controls how powerful ALL of your attacks are (Int gives you spells which is where 80% of all your damage comes from), it controls your defenses (it powers you shield spell, your mirror image, your invisibility, etc.) and if you want it can be the source of all your melee direct damage as well (Hair Hex, Pool Strike, Flamboyant Arcana).
EVERYTHING is secondary to that stat since it powers everything a magi can do.
Just remember, a Magi who tries to fight without spells is just a second rate rogue without sneak attack, and we all know how effective they are.
Int is your most important stat, it controls how powerful ALL of your attacks are (Int gives you spells which is where 80% of all your damage comes from), it controls your defenses (it powers you shield spell, your mirror image, your invisibility, etc.) and if you want it can be the source of all your melee direct damage as well (Hair Hex, Pool Strike, Flamboyant Arcana).
EVERYTHING is secondary to that stat since it powers everything a magi can do.
about that, i have mentioned several times now that i am actually going to be using the Eldritch Scion archetype for this magus, which switches everything from Int to Cha
Also, thanks for the help, the stuff you have posted has been quite helpful so far :)
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Int is your most important stat, it controls how powerful ALL of your attacks are (Int gives you spells which is where 80% of all your damage comes from), it controls your defenses (it powers you shield spell, your mirror image, your invisibility, etc.) and if you want it can be the source of all your melee direct damage as well (Hair Hex, Pool Strike, Flamboyant Arcana).
EVERYTHING is secondary to that stat since it powers everything a magi can do.about that, i have mentioned several times now that i am actually going to be using the Eldritch Scion archetype for this magus, which switches everything from Int to Cha
Also, thanks for the help, the stuff you have posted has been quite helpful so far :)
Yes, I know you mentioned it I'm just trying to convince you not to do it.
It's a bad archetype and it costs you more than it gives you.You're spells known drops to nearly nothing (bard spells known, really?), you have to burn your swift actions AND arcane pool points to be able to spellcombat and you don't get the ability to improve your weapons until 4th level.
You can't use your arcana when you want to since your swift action is used every 2 rounds just to be able to do the main schtick your class is designed around. Add to that you are going to be burning through your pool points 2 or 3 times faster than every other Magus type in the game.
Finally you are giving up all your extra skill points from having a high Int score. Remember Int is still used for skill points AND skill modifiers.
Playing this is going to really destroy your action economy and you are going to hate trying to juggle everything you have to do just to function.
This archetype is really, really bad and is a trap option don't do it.
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I never disagreed with B or C--in fact I said exactly what you did.
I can see how A says what you're saying about negating the need for natural spell combat, though. But I'd be heavily prepared to defend it to a GM with the dev posts you're talking about since it answers the question with a "Yes" but then goes on to say everything about haste and nothing about the question.
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Mathwei ap Niall, I don't think you're paying attention to what we are actually objecting to about your posts. For starters:
C). Using touch spells through natural attacks can be done the same round they are cast. This is addressed in the spellstrike rules you just quoted.
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See where it says ANY weapon? As the previous faq quote just directly said that all natural attacks are light, 1-handed weapons that makes them a valid choice for spellstrike allowing you to use any of them as a delivery method for that spell.
claudekennilol and I have repeatedly pointed out that spellstrike is exactly what allows you to do this. Why is this important? Because here's where that question came up in the thread: the OP pointing out that if he's not a magus with spellstrike, he can't cast-move-natural attack.
And here was your response to that (bold mine):
FOURTH, some of you really need to re-read the rules for touch spells. ANY offensive touch spell allows you to cast then move and attack. Base rules allow you to swap that with a natural attack. Natural Weapon Magi don't even need spellstrike at all as long as they focus on just their natural weapons.
But if you DON'T have spellstrike:
Anytime a Caster touches anything other than his weapon with a touch spell active the spell goes off. Swinging a claw and hitting the target counts as touching and triggers the spell.
Hitting something with a claw certainly discharges the spell, but without spellstrike hitting a target with a claw requires an attack action. Which means you cannot NORMALLY (without spellstrike, quicken, or some other exception) deliver a touch spell using a natural weapon in the same round as you cast the touch spell. Which is exactly what the OP and Artoo were saying, so your objection was unfair and inaccurate.
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Don't forget casting a touch spell with spell combat grants you an extra attack with your hand. You give up 1 of your hand based attacks but get to make 2 an extra attack with the other. It's pretty much a wash when it comes to natural attacks.
I'm not forgetting it. But you also get that extra attack if you are using a manufactured weapon. Again, the specific thing I'm objecting to is:
A magus using spellcombat can attack with ALL their hand based weapons
You can't spell combat with all your hand based weapons because you can't spell combat with your off-hand claw. The usual advantage of claws is that you get two attacks at full BAB, but when using spell combat you lose one of those attacks. That means that spell combat with claws, assuming you have only two arms, is not an improvement over spell combat with a manufactured weapon in your main hand. In fact the claw is worse at BAB +6 or higher. Using Monstrous Physique to turn into something with multiple arms resolves this issue, but that doesn't come into play until high levels.
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Natural weapon builds are AWESOME for any caster focused on touch spells, Magi just have a LOT of advantages to make it extra awesome.
Magus are probably better than average as natural weapon / touch spell using spellcasters. The question is whether natural weapons are the most effective weapon choice for a magus, given that spell combat does not work as efficiently with natural weapons (you lose your off-hand claw and have to take an arcana to use non-hand-based weapons) and that spellstrike allows you to use a manufactured weapon instead of a natural weapon to deliver a touch spell with an attack. I'm undecided, hence hanging out here and trying to clarify the relevant rules.
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Well then lets directly address your points then.
Anytime a Caster touches anything other than his weapon with a touch spell active the spell goes off. Swinging a claw and hitting the target counts as touching and triggers the spell.Hitting something with a claw certainly discharges the spell, but without spellstrike hitting a target with a claw requires an attack action. Which means you cannot NORMALLY (without spellstrike, quicken, or some other exception) deliver a touch spell using a natural weapon in the same round as you cast the touch spell. Which is exactly what the OP and Artoo were saying, so your objection was unfair and inaccurate.
Incorrect. Casting ANY touch spell grants you a free action to use it. That has nothing to do with spellstrike, quicken or anything else.
Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
I'm not forgetting it. But you also get that extra attack if you are using a manufactured weapon. Again, the specific thing I'm objecting to is:
You can't spell combat with all your hand based weapons because you can't spell combat with your off-hand claw. The usual advantage of claws is that you get two attacks at full BAB, but when using spell combat you lose one of those attacks. That means that spell combat with claws, assuming you have only two arms, is not an improvement over spell combat with a manufactured weapon in your main hand. In fact the claw is worse at BAB +6 or higher. Using Monstrous Physique to turn into something with multiple arms resolves this issue, but that doesn't come into play until high levels.Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
A magus using spellcombat can attack with ALL their hand based weapons
And you are essentially wrong here as well. Yes, a claw wielder technically gives up one hand to use spellcombat which would cost one attack. But since spell combat with a touch spell gives you an extra attack he's back up to 2 attacks a round. Yes a manufactured weapon wielder with a BaB over 6 can get a 3rd attack but that attack will be at a -7 to hit and will usually miss. However the natural weapon wielder can invest in a Natural Spellcombat arcana and add another weapon into the rotation or simply cast a spell granting a form with extra claw/slam attacks OR simply use an unarmed strike. (The UAS does require burning two feats to do it safely without to extreme a penalty but still an option)
Add to this that the Natural Weapon wielder will almost always have a better to-hit chance then the weapon wielder for their extra attacks usually makes it a better option.For example a 8th level rapier wielding magus would have a attack routine of +4/+4/-1 (before stat/magic adjustment) vs. the identical Natural weapon magus with a +4/+4/+4 with a claw/claw/(bite, Slam, gore, etc.)
Since the most important thing is to connect with the target to discharge the spell the natural weapon wielder has a superior chance to do that.
I think the big issue here is in your understanding of what an off-hand is. It's not a real term, there is no off-hand in spell combat, there is only "the other hand". It's just the hand that is occupied with casting the spell, it doesn't impact anything else, it's just busy during this round is all.
Overall between levels 1-8 the natural weapon wielder will be better then the weapon wielder since it has the same or more attacks each round. Once the Weapon wielder gets an iterative attack at 8th it starts to pull ahead IF the nat weapon wielder doesn't find a way to add another attack to their rotation. If they do they will rapidly shoot ahead of the weapon wielder since they will ALWAYS have a better chance to hit with their additional attacks. The will also have significantly more cash since they don't ever need to buy, improve or replace a weapon.
Eventually they will probably buy an AoMF but it's not a mandatory purchase like a magical weapon is for your weapon wielder. Plus the ability to wield a rod/wand/staff while doing spellcombat and still being able to attack that round is a small but very powerful advantage.
Normal Magi cannot use any of these during spellcombat since both of their hands are full and drawing/sheathing/picking up a weapon takes an action which they don't have. Natural wielders simply drop the rod and attack.
End of the day, Natural weapon Magi have a clear edge in attack bonus, number of attacks and utility over weapon wielders. They have a few different drains on their resources but the flexibility and potency more than make up for it.
I second dropping the Cha casting archetype. If the bloodline is that important to you then consider playing a bloodrager with the blood conduit archetype. At 5th level you kinda become a magus and can combine the spells you cast with some combat manuevers.
That being said. Which bloodline are you going for?
EDIT: derp, yeah, draconic. Just reread the OP. This build you have in mind is actually harder to play than a prepared caster. Good luck.
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And you are essentially wrong here as well. Yes, a claw wielder technically gives up one hand to use spellcombat which would cost one attack. But since spell combat with a touch spell gives you an extra attack he's back up to 2 attacks a round. Yes a manufactured weapon wielder with a BaB over 6 can get a 3rd attack but that attack will be at a -7 to hit and will usually miss.
At this point, at BAB +6 we have +4/+4 with the claw (main hand, main hand delivering touch spell) and +4/+4/-1 (main, spell, iterative) with the rapier. At BAB +11 we have +9/+9 vs +9/+9/+4/-1. Rapier wins - even if the iterative attacks don't hit as much, they hit sometimes.
However the natural weapon wielder can invest in a Natural Spellcombat arcana and add another weapon into the rotation or simply cast a spell granting a form with extra claw/slam attacks OR simply use an unarmed strike. (The UAS does require burning two feats to do it safely without to extreme a penalty but still an option)
If you go UAS, it replaces your main hand claw since any UAS used with spell combat must be your hand-associated weapon. Polymorph and Natural spell combat let you add more attacks, but they also require you to spend resources (spells and arcana) that a manufactured weapon wielder could allocate elsewhere. For example, if you're casting Monstrous Physique I, you and your party might be turning down Haste.
Add to this that the Natural Weapon wielder will almost always have a better to-hit chance then the weapon wielder for their extra attacks usually makes it a better option.
For example a 8th level rapier wielding magus would have a attack routine of +4/+4/-1 (before stat/magic adjustment) vs. the identical Natural weapon magus with a +4/+4/+4 with a claw/claw/(bite, Slam, gore, etc.)
Since the most important thing is to connect with the target to discharge the spell the natural weapon wielder has a superior chance to do that.
The odds of missing with two highest-BAB attacks in the same round are in my experience not high, even at 3/4 BAB, and if you're delivering a single-charge spell you just need one hit in a round. When using multi-touch spells the last attack packs a bit more punch, and it's nice to speed up the rate at which you deliver a multi-touch spell since they often have more total effects than the one-shot touch. But is that worth an arcana, and the resources to obtain the natural attacks? Note also that the rapier wielder crits on a 18-20 instead of just the 20, increasing the chance they'll do double damage with both weapon and spell.
I think the big issue here is in your understanding of what an off-hand is. It's not a real term, there is no off-hand in spell combat, there is only "the other hand". It's just the hand that is occupied with casting the spell, it doesn't impact anything else, it's just busy during this round is all.
And because it's busy, it can't make a claw attack.
The will also have significantly more cash since they don't ever need to buy, improve or replace a weapon.
Eventually they will probably buy an AoMF but it's not a mandatory purchase like a magical weapon is for your weapon wielder.
Justify this, please. I have never seen someone suggest an AoMF is less important to a natural weapon user than a magic weapon is to a manufactured weapon user, especially when as pointed out upthread the natural weapon user can't use arcane bond to enhance all their attacks at once. And the AoMF is more expensive, meaning the natural weapon user will have less cash.
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Also noticed in your guide:
At this point you should have 2 touch spells running for each attack (Frostbite & Chill Touch) stacking with your regular weapon damage and the elemental effect from your AoMF.
This doesn't work - you can't deliver Frostbite and Chill Touch at the same time.
When you have charges remaining in a touch spell eg Frostbite or Chill Touch, you are still considered to be holding the charge.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
If you have Frostbite active and cast Chill Touch, Frostbite dissipates, and vice versa.
I can see how A says what you're saying about negating the need for natural spell combat, though. But I'd be heavily prepared to defend it to a GM with the dev posts you're talking about since it answers the question with a "Yes" but then goes on to say everything about haste and nothing about the question.
That's not what it does. There are still FAQ on the books limiting the weapons used with spell-combat to hand-associated ones. Of course, Mathwei ap Niall hasn't actually claimed that you don't need natural spell combat to use spell combat with a bite, just that you don't need it to use spell combat with a claw - which no one is disputing.
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OK Wierdo, at this point you are obviously not reading the clear cut rules quotes provided and just making things up.
A). Nowhere and I mean NOWHERE does anything state that adding an UAS replace a mainhand attack. UAS are explicitly called out as being valid spellcombat weapon choices and don't impact the mainhands attacks at all. UAS strikes are full body weapons, this has been stated over and over agin. It CAN be a punch, or a kick or elbow or whatever other choice you want. IT specifically allows you to break the Hand requirement by the definition of the attack.
B). I never said anything about the highest Bab attacks. I Specifically said the iterative attacks. EVERY example I wrote only addressed the later attacks with the lower attack bonus. Did you skip reading that part?
C). AoMF is a Nice addition for a Nat Weapon Magus but it is not a necessary one. The only use a magus has for the AoMF is if they want a spell storing strike, no other enchant is needed. Here's the simple fact that you keep ignoring, Nat weapon Magi don't care about weapon damage. It's unimportant to them. You use natural weapons for the faster access to extra attacks and the better attack bonus on all those attacks. All the real damage comes from the spells you are channeling which massively dwarfs the weapon damage from the nat attacks. If you want to scrape every single point of damage you can then go ahead and buy the amulet an take power attack, etc. but end of the day the spells ill easily do 8x as much damage for a fraction of the work.
D). Chill touch & Frost bite. Again you are showing you aren't reading what you are replying to. The Chll touch came from a wand/staff/spellscar which is NOT considered casting a spell and doesn't cause the Frostbite to dissipate.
Items as Spells: Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells, bloodline abilities, and so on?
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
Now if you wish to continue in this discussion you should probably read what you are replying to first.
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D). Chill touch & Frost bite. Again you are showing you aren't reading what you are replying to. The Chll touch came from a wand/staff/spellscar which is NOT considered casting a spell and doesn't cause the Frostbite to dissipate.
Items as Spells: Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation...
I am not gonna further clog the topic about "personal opinions" about natural attacking magus, but your D point is very very unlikely correct. The FAQ you quoted explains that feats and special abilities do not effect spells stored inside items which makes sense but it does not state that you can have multiple touch spells active at any such time.
Please don't spread incorrect information. If you can further dispute, go ahead, but include topics or designer responses in it otherwise you are fishing in muddy waters.
Adam
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D). Chill touch & Frost bite. Again you are showing you aren't reading what you are replying to. The Chll touch came from a wand/staff/spellscar which is NOT considered casting a spell and doesn't cause the Frostbite to dissipate.
Items as Spells: Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation...I am not gonna further clog the topic about "personal opinions" about natural attacking magus, but your D point is very very unlikely correct. The FAQ you quoted explains that feats and special abilities do not effect spells stored inside items which makes sense but it does not state that you can have multiple touch spells active at any such time.
Please don't spread incorrect information. If you can further dispute, go ahead, but include topics or designer responses in it otherwise you are fishing in muddy waters.
Adam
You are entitled to your opinion however the Faq says what it says. The only thing that causes you to lose a held spell is if you CAST another spell. Period.
Using a wand, staff, scroll or rod does not count as casting a spell so does not cause you to lose any charges. Now retrieving one of these items will probably cause you to discharge one of your charges but that's what Weaponwand and Spell Scar are there to prevent.|
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OK Wierdo, at this point you are obviously not reading the clear cut rules quotes provided and just making things up.
...
Now if you wish to continue in this discussion you should probably read what you are replying to first.
Take your own advice.
A) UAS are normally full-body weapons and can be delivered with any body part (general rule), but when using Spell Combat you must use hand-associated weapons (specific rule). The FAQ allowing UAS with spell combat still requires that the attack be hand-associated, which means a punch, not an elbow or kick.
Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
B) Your argument was that a claw/claw/bite user has a higher chance to deliver a spell because your third attack is at full BAB compared to an iterative attack. While I agree this is true, I was pointing out (1) the difference is only meaningful with multi-touch spells (2) there are trade-offs which you are not mentioning. Both of these are important points for the OP when considering how effective a claw/claw/bite build will be.
C) Magic weapons aren't just about weapon damage. They also increase to-hit, help you overcome DR, and can add properties like Keen or Holy. The former amplifies the rapier magus' crit advantage and the latter is very useful in certain campaigns. Rapier magi also derive much of their damage from spells and they still want magic weapons.
D) Your guide doesn't mention using a wand or spell scar to pull off the Frostbite + Chill Touch combo, so you can hardly fault me for failing to read your mind and anticipate the rules exception you were using - and I think it's a disservice to those reading your guide who might not realize that you need to jump through those hoops and expend extra resources to pull off that trick. (Which I do think works RAW, though maybe not RAI.)
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OK Wierdo, at this point you are obviously not reading the clear cut rules quotes provided and just making things up.
...
Now if you wish to continue in this discussion you should probably read what you are replying to first.Take your own advice.
A) UAS are normally full-body weapons and can be delivered with any body part (general rule), but when using Spell Combat you must use hand-associated weapons (specific rule). The FAQ allowing UAS with spell combat still requires that the attack be hand-associated, which means a punch, not an elbow or kick.
** spoiler omitted **
B) Your argument was that a claw/claw/bite user has a higher chance to deliver a spell because your third attack is at full BAB compared to an iterative attack. While I agree this is true, I was pointing out (1) the difference is only meaningful with multi-touch spells (2) there are trade-offs which you are not mentioning. Both of these are important points for the OP when considering how effective a claw/claw/bite build will be.
C) Magic weapons aren't just about weapon damage. They also increase to-hit, help you overcome DR, and can add properties like Keen or Holy. The former amplifies the rapier magus' crit advantage and the latter is very useful in certain campaigns. Rapier magi also derive much of their damage from spells and they still want magic weapons.
D) Your guide doesn't mention using a wand or spell scar to pull off the Frostbite + Chill Touch combo, so you can hardly fault me for failing to read your mind and anticipate...
A). Hand Associated not limited to just hands. UAS strike is explicitly called out as valid but it doesn't require you to use a hand. UAS (kick) is valid for spellcombat since UAS is explicitly declared as valid. If it was limited to hand only then Natural Spell Combat (bite) and prehensile hair would never work.
B). Good, we agree that natural attacks are better as long as you don't use sub-optimal spells that ignore what the build is designed to do.
C). Everything that you are referring to applies to natural attacks as well and depending on your build is easier and/or cheaper to do with natural attack. A +1 enchant on a AoMF for 6 natural attacks (calikang form) cost 667gp per weapon as opposed to the 2300+ for that +1 rapier. Honestly once you get past 2 natural attacks it's cheaper to have Magic natural weapons then manufactured weapons. Throw on the fact that natural enchants don't require a base +1 to enchant ALL of them makes the higher bonus enchants an order of magnitude cheaper.
D). That's a reading comprehension fail on your part since all of that is written into the guide. Read it again.
At this point you sound like you are more invested in proving my argument wrong then proving your argument right. Don't argue with me on why I'm wrong, show everyone else why you are right, you'll do better going that way.
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I can't argue my side. I don't have one. I am undecided on how the natural weapons magus stacks up against the manufactured weapon magus. I was just lurking and hoping you'd convince me (I'd really like to try this build!) but I'm noticing some inconsistencies and I can't ignore them because I'm stubborn. It's a character flaw.
A)
You are entitled to your opinion however the Faq says what it says.
B) We are agreed that the natural weapons magus has a higher average number of hits in a round. We are not agreed that makes the build "better."
C) I notice that your Transmorgifist build #2 takes Eldritch Claws to bypass DR/magic and DR/silver - at level 9. At that point WBL is 46,000gp and even if you haven't got a +3 rapier you can make one with arcane pool, so why are you spending a feat on getting through less kinds of DR than a +3 weapon does? That's not easier and cheaper.
In terms of value, a rapier also gets the +1 bonus on its free spellstrike attack and any iteratives, so you need more than twice the number of natural weapons for AoMF > rapier. With six arms an AoMF is a better buy than swords - but that doesn't make it less necessary for the build, which was your original assertion. Goal-posts should stay put, thanks.
D) Maybe I'm blind. Bold it for me.
In general you shift into a Form with multiple natural attacks, say a Gargoyle for example, and then close and use the Frostbite spell. From this point on every attack you can burn an arcane pool point to add your Int bous to your attack bonus for normal weapon damage + 1D6 cold + CL in non-lethal damage and Fatigue as well as Entangle the target(s) because of the Rime Spell metamagic. That is usually enough non-lethal damage to knock most things out in a round and if it lives being entangled lets you 5ft away and it can’t follow you to retaliate. Also each successful hit will allow you to Intimidate the target for the Shaken condition.
At higher levels You’ll replace the Arcane Accuracy with Accurate Strikes to resolve all your attacks against Touch AC while power attacking and using your AoMF to drop an Intensified Shocking Grasp on each target you’re fighting. At this point you should have 2 touch spells running for each attack (Frostbite & Chill Touch) stacking with your regular weapon damage and the elemental effect from your AoMF. On average you should be doing 4D6 +str +level +PA bonus on 6-8 attacks each round all at full Bab against touch AC.
Plus you can have a tail to hold a wand or rod for you (saves taking hair hex). The alternate favored pool point favored bonus is sweet too.
One for you, one for your familiar (they use YOUR skill ranks remember?) so your 8 Int little buddy actually knows quite a bit. Spring a feat on Improved Familiar later and get a Faerie Dragon to use wands (considered a 3rd level sorc so no UMD check!! and telepathy!) for you while you fight, either buffs for you or Debuffs on enemies (Did I mention Ill Omen yet?)
Wand Wielder: Not bad. But not awesome. Having a wand gets you tons of spell combat rounds without burning spells. But wands are expensive, have a poorer CL than your spells and you can't two hand Spellstrike with a wand in your offhand. Why isn't your familiar using the wand again?
It is effectively an extra 'hand' that can hold a wand (so can a familiar though).
Evil Eye+Ill omen wand using Familiar= MASSIVE DEBUFF.
Use wands of Infernal Healing outside combat. Works out better than CLW
Not finding it. Just a lot of references to giving your familiar the wands.
*twice in build lists*
Extra Spells from Spell Scars gets you a bunch of out of combat slots that make you awesomer.
Page reference?
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A). Hand Associated not limited to just hands. UAS strike is explicitly called out as valid but it doesn't require you to use a hand. UAS (kick) is valid for spellcombat since UAS is explicitly declared as valid. If it was limited to hand only then Natural Spell Combat (bite) and prehensile hair would never work.You are aware that they don't work without Natural Spell Combat, which is a specific rule overriding the limitation, right? Specific beats General, this is old news.
In other news, only Monks and Brawlers can explicitly make unarmed strikes with body parts other than their hands.
No. That is not true and I showed you direct FAQ quotes stating that you do not need Natural Spellcombat for claws, slams or unarmed strikes. The Devs have also directly stated that since prehensile hair functions as a hand it also doesn't need it either.
Now if you do not want to listen to the people who created the game telling you how it works then there's nothing that's going to convince you so I'll just stop trying, it's not worth the effort.Secondly you are wrong on the unarmed strikes as well.
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon,
Monks and Brawlers are allowed to add elbows and knees to this list but ALL characters can make unarmed strikes with Kicks, Headbutts and punches.
Honestly, would you just stop making things up? Your attempts to confuse the actual rules of the game are wearing thin.|
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I can't argue my side. I don't have one. I am undecided on how the natural weapons magus stacks up against the manufactured weapon magus. I was just lurking and hoping you'd convince me (I'd really like to try this build!) but I'm noticing some inconsistencies and I can't ignore them because I'm stubborn. It's a character flaw.
A)
You are entitled to your opinion however the Faq says what it says.B) We are agreed that the natural weapons magus has a higher average number of hits in a round. We are not agreed that makes the build "better."
C) I notice that your Transmorgifist build #2 takes Eldritch Claws to bypass DR/magic and DR/silver - at level 9. At that point WBL is 46,000gp and even if you haven't got a +3 rapier you can make one with arcane pool, so why are you spending a feat on getting through less kinds of DR than a +3 weapon does? That's not easier and cheaper.
In terms of value, a rapier also gets the +1 bonus on its free spellstrike attack and any iteratives, so you need more than twice the number of natural weapons for AoMF > rapier. With six arms an AoMF is a better buy than swords - but that doesn't make it less necessary for the build, which was your original assertion. Goal-posts should stay put, thanks.
D) Maybe I'm blind. Bold it for me.
In general you shift into a Form with multiple natural attacks, say a Gargoyle for example, and then close and use the Frostbite spell. From this point on every attack you can burn an arcane pool point to add your Int bous to your attack bonus for normal weapon damage + 1D6 cold + CL in non-lethal damage and Fatigue as well as Entangle the target(s) because of the Rime Spell metamagic. That is usually enough non-lethal damage to knock most things out in a round and if it lives being entangled lets you 5ft away and it can’t follow you to retaliate. Also each successful hit will...
Fine I'll spell it out for you as simply as I can. That is an optimization guide designed to squeeze out every advantage possible. None of it is necessary for a functional character, it's designed to show you the limits of what's possible.
As for why it's unnecessary I'll say it again "Melee damage from the natural attacks is unimportant, it's all about hitting the target with the spell effect." If your spells are doing 30 or 40 or 90 points when they hit that makes the 1D4+whatever from the actual weapon a joke.The reason you choose natural attacks over manufactured attacks is because it's SOOO much easier to get more natural attacks and they all have a higher chance of hitting and discharging the spell.
Here's the best way of looking at it, let's say you do have that rapier +3 and you're hasted and you spell combat to get your frostbite off. Best case you are going to get 4 possible attacks that round with at least one of them having a less then 50% chance to hit. Your +3 rapier is going to add 3D6+9 (19pts of damage on average) to your total damage.
Or you can use natural attacks and get 6 (8 with the same haste and spellcombat) attacks there with all your attacks having an equal chance to hit. At 9th level without the rapier and use the slams the natural attack build gives you an extra 5D6 + 45 (ave 62) pts of damage without spending the cash for the weapon. That's a return of over 3x the damage of the weapon and saving over 18,000GP which you can use to buy more spells, wands, rods and attribute boosting items.
It is overwhelmingly a better return on your investment.
As for the Eldritch claws feat you don't take it to get through the DR, you take it so you can freely attack every type of creature you are likely to encounter. Being treated as magic lets you freely hit incorporeal or creatures that require magic weapons to affect. We don't care about the DR since your spell damage ignores DR.
As for the rest of your post we have no idea what you are asking there.
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1. As you explicitly pointed to Natural Spell Combat (Bite) as something that would never work without your ruling, pointing out that it does not work without Natural Spell Combat is simply a statement of fact, regardless of the status of rulings regarding hands. You do not Bite with your hands.
2. "Functioning as a hand" and "associated with a hand" are not the same thing. A prehensile tail can also function as a hand with the right feats, but it is not legal for use with Spell Combat.
3. Excellent. Now, if that rule regarding unarmed strikes is true for everybody, explain why it got specific mention as a special ability of the monk? Given that the rule is in the combat section explaining what you can do with an unarmed strike, rather than what it is, it doesn't really help your case... but then we still have the Monk issue.
Really, this is all rules lawyering of the worst sort. An attack associated with a hand doesn't actually use that hand? Really?
You are adding conditions to the ability that don't exist. There is no requirement for it to "Function as a hand" it simply has to be associated with a hand. The Developers have stated this over and over Claws work with Spellcombat, Slams work with Spellcombat and all Unarmed strikes work with spellcombat. Why it works is unimportant, they say it works so it works. Period.
Monks get a special mention because they can do everything everyone else can and more. Normal characters can't use Knees and Elbows with UAS Monks can. Normal characters provoke when making UAS, Monks don't and Normal characters do 1/2 damage with their offhand attacks, monks don't. THAT'S why monks get a specific writeup, they simply do it better.
If you want to play a game where the rules of the world match ours then go play life. DnD/Pathfinder is a simulationist game with different rules and a more flexible meaning of the term WHY.
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Let's try some numbers.
Let's assume that a 10th level magus with a +3 rapier is fighting beside a magus in a 6-clawed form (but no AoMF). The claw magus has taken Eldritch Claws as you suggest – the rapier magus instead took Improved Critical. Both are otherwise identical and using Haste, Spell Combat, and Frostbite. Let's assume that the claw magus has a 75% chance to hit with each attack. This means the rapier user has a 90% chance to hit at full BAB with the +3 and their iterative attack will have a 65% chance to hit. For simplicity attack damage only includes base weapon damage + enhancement + spell.
BUT there's also a 40% chance of crit threats, so we have to add an extra .4* Expected damage. Working this out in the long form, for each attack we add chance threat * chance confirm * attack damage:
With crit = 67 + 3*.4*.9(2d6+13) + .4*.65(2d6+13) = .4*45.9 + .4*11.05 = 26.8 + 67 = 93.8
Claw gets 7 attacks: 1 haste + 1 spellstrike + 6 claws – 1 hand being used to cast a spell = 7 attacks, with a 5% chance of crit threat.
Claw = 7*.75(2d6+10) + 7*.05*.75(2d6+10) = 89.25 + 4.46 = 93.7
DPR is 93.8 vs 93.7, virtually identical. Both characters are almost guaranteed (>99.9% chance) to hit at least once, so the target is also fatigued. The claw user has an extra 18K, but the rapier user didn't cast Monstrous Physique, so they have an extra 4th level spell slot. 4th level pearl of power = 16K so I'd call that even. Keep in mind also this is a favourable level for the claw user since they have just gotten access to their 6-armed “king of forms.”
Now, both characters are likely to have a few extra damage bonuses, whether from a Str bonus, elemental property, etc, so let's see how this works with a general “X” where X is total damage from the attack before weapon enhancement:
DPR (natural weapons) = 7*.75X + 7*.05*.75X = 5.5125X
DPR (rapier) = 3*.9(X+3) + .65(X+3)+ .4*(3*.9X+3)+(.4*.65X+3) = 4.69X+14.07
The claw user wins when:
5.51X > 4.69X+14.07
X > 17.16
X = 17 above, which means that with a higher Str the claw user pulls ahead... unless X is reduced by DR. At level 10, many foes have DR 10 or higher which eliminates weapon damage, leaving only Frostbite damage. That's 7*.75(d6+10) + 7*.05*.75(d6+10) = 74.4. Your DPR drops by 20 against DR/cold iron or DR/alignment! Note that align weapon works on manufactured but not natural weapons.
Y=chance to hit with claw:
DPR (natural weapons) = 7*Y*X + 7*.05*YX = 7.35XY
DPR (rapier) = 3*(Y+.15)(X+3) + (Y-.1)(X+3)+ .4*previous
It's been a while since I worked at expressions that don't simplify nicely and the latter doesn't so I'm going to plug-and-play with X=17 as above:
With a 90% chance to hit on the claw, you get 112.5 claw vs 102.2 for the rapier*
With a 80% chance to hit on the claw, you get 100 claw vs 99.4 for the rapier.
With a 70% chance to hit on the claw, you get 87.5 claw vs 88.2 for the rapier.
With a 60% chance to hit on the claw, you get 75 claw vs 77 for the rapier.
With a 50% chance to hit on the claw, you get 62.5 claw vs 65.8 for the rapier.
With a 40% chance to hit on the claw, you get 50 claw vs 54.6 for the rapier.
*Note that I capped out the rapier's chance to hit for full-BAB attacks.
Claws get an advantage, then, with higher than 75% to-hit, but it's only significant when the rapier wielder starts missing only on a 1, which is not typical in a serious fight. As your chance to hit drops, the rapier gets better than the claws, though not by much.
Now, if you do decide to spend 16K on a +2 AoMF you pull ahead (7*.85(2d6+12) + 7*.05*.85(2d6+12) = 118.7 using initial assumptions). But then you're about on par with wealth, still a 4th level spell slot behind, and you still fall behind the rapier when dealing with DR (7*.85(d6+10) + 7*.05*.85(d6+10) = 84.3).
Note also that none of these calculations included an arcane pool enhancement, which benefits all rapier attacks but only one claw (3/4 claw attacks). This is an advantage for the rapier, though probably not an overwhelming one.
Conclusion: natural weapons exclusive build is viable, and under optimal conditions can beat a simple crit-fishing magus on damage. However, DR is a serious weakness and an AoMF is a must. You shouldn't ignore weapon damage – it may be a minority of your damage output but it's a significant minority and a decent Str mod may give you an edge over that guy with the rapier. Also from the OP's POV you'll need to abandon your natural natural weapons for a polymorphed form, otherwise your number of attacks won't keep up.
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Let's try some numbers.
Let's assume that a 10th level magus with a +3 rapier is fighting beside a magus in a 6-clawed form (but no AoMF). The claw magus has taken Eldritch Claws as you suggest – the rapier magus instead took Improved Critical. Both are otherwise identical and using Haste, Spell Combat, and Frostbite. Let's assume that the claw magus has a 75% chance to hit with each attack. This means the rapier user has a 90% chance to hit at full BAB with the +3 and their iterative attack will have a 65% chance to hit. For simplicity attack damage only includes base weapon damage + enhancement + spell.
** spoiler omitted **
DPR is 93.8 vs 93.7, virtually identical. Both characters are almost guaranteed (>99.9% chance) to hit at least once, so the target is also fatigued. The claw user has an extra 18K, but the rapier user didn't cast Monstrous Physique, so they have an extra 4th level spell slot. 4th level pearl of power = 16K so I'd call that even. Keep in mind also this is a favourable level for the claw user since they have just gotten access to their 6-armed “king of forms.”
Now, both characters are likely to have a few extra damage bonuses, whether from a Str bonus, elemental property, etc, so let's see how this works with a general “X” where X is total damage from the attack before weapon enhancement:
DPR (natural weapons) = 7*.75X + 7*.05*.75X = 5.5125X
DPR (rapier) = 3*.9(X+3) + .65(X+3)+...
Impressive math output and far beyond my ability to plot but add two more moving parts to this to show the in play effects. Touch AC and strength bonus. At this level the Natural attacker will always be using Accurate strikes against touch AC's to make sure their hit chance exceeds 90% and since these are built around transformation spells they should always have at least a +1 to +3 greater damage bonus from the strength boost over the weapon wielder.
9Yes the weapon wielder benefits from the accurate strikes as well but the increased number of attacks is a significant damage boost).|
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Well then lets directly address your points then.
Incorrect. Casting ANY touch spell grants you a free action to use it. That has nothing to do with spellstrike, quicken or anything else.Anytime a Caster touches anything other than his weapon with a touch spell active the spell goes off. Swinging a claw and hitting the target counts as touching and triggers the spell.Hitting something with a claw certainly discharges the spell, but without spellstrike hitting a target with a claw requires an attack action. Which means you cannot NORMALLY (without spellstrike, quicken, or some other exception) deliver a touch spell using a natural weapon in the same round as you cast the touch spell. Which is exactly what the OP and Artoo were saying, so your objection was unfair and inaccurate.
This is wrong. It does not grant you a "free action". It grants you a "free touch attack". You can only use a weapon you are wielding in place of that explicit "free touch attack" if you are a magus.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll
You must have spellstrike (or use a quickened spell like he was saying) to be able to do this without being a magus.
And you're incredibly wrong about "D)". You can't hold two separate charges regardless of whether one of the spells came from an item or not. The FAQ you're quoting says nothing about charges and you're just trying to read from it what you're hoping it says (which it doesn't).
Well, there is another small advantage: A Natural Attacking Magus can buff all of his attacks at once with an Amulet of Mighty Fists. This becomes increasingly beneficial the more natural attacks he gets. It is hard to judge the cost/benefit curve, though vs. the cost/benefit of the Weapon Magus.
It is an advantage. There are more ways to buff all of your natural attacks at once than there are for standard weapon enhancements. It used to not be this way with just core rules, but there are now more ways to do it.
The natural weapon magus could use an AoMF with elemental bonuses on it while getting Greater Magic Fang Permanancied on each natural weapon attack. He could use magic items that grant more natural attacks (that the amulet adds to). He could use Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes for other benefits. He could use Delequescent Gloves on both hands. There are also several feats and spells that he can take advantage to up the damage like Strong Jaw, Improved Natural Attack, Dragon Style, etc that the benefits are all improved by increasing in size which some staple Magus spells do. And while it is less efficient to do so they can still enhance one of their natural weapons with their arcane pool.
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I think a stronger strategy would be to focus on accuracy and increasing the number of attacks you make. The bulk of your damage as a Magus is going to come from your touch spells, not your weapon damage. So save your pool for Arcane Accuracy, rather than worrying about weapon enhancements. Landing all the touch uses of Chill Touch in one turn is going to be plenty of damage.