Throughout history, in countless cultures, warriors fight with a spear and shield combo. How is this best represented in game? Does pretty much every soldier ever have to take the phalanx soldier fighter archetype? That seems a bit silly. Surely there must be some way of using a spear with a shield in formation fighting without having to depend on a single archetype? I feel I must be missing something in the rules.
Let's see...there's the phalanx soldier archetype...the titan mauler archetype...did I mention the phalanx soldier archetype? All in all, you'd probably be better off just using a shortspear.
Ya except the short spears is like a little 3 foot Zulu style spears. Most shield wall formations had at least 6 foot spears or more. The Macedonian hoplites had spears up to like 20 feet along with their shields. It seems weird that there wouldn't be some basic way of deal with this.
Let's see...there's the phalanx soldier archetype...the titan mauler archetype...did I mention the phalanx soldier archetype? All in all, you'd probably be better off just using a shortspear.Ya except the short spears is like a little 3 foot Zulu style spears. Most shield wall formations had at least 6 foot spears or more. The Macedonian hoplites had spears up to like 20 feet along with their shields. It seems weird that there wouldn't be some basic way of deal with this.
just resin it in your mind…
Its a spear that does 1d6 damage, can be thrown, and doesn't provide reach or set against charge ability.
Just think of it as a "light spear" and not get stuck on the idea of a short zulu spear.
I agree, it's dumb. But dems the rules.
A great sword should technically supply reach and/or close combat alternatively… because it's so long… but it doesn't.
O well.
True but even if inaccurate theres at least a way of representing a buckler, crossbow, longbow, and musket in the game. As for the dueling shield it would be easy enough to make up some stats and make it an exotic weapon. The difference is there doesn't seem to be any way of even representing perhaps the most fundamental fighting style in all of history. Other then with an archetype or two that is. It just seems like there must be something for it in the rules somewhere?
Anyways. What would be a good way of representing this? With a rules amendment to spears? With a feat of some kind? I don't know. I mainly just want a way of making basic soldier NPCs that can use a spear and shield.
just resin it in your mind…
Its a spear that does 1d6 damage, can be thrown, and doesn't provide reach or set against charge ability.
Just think of it as a "light spear" and not get stuck on the idea of a short zulu spear.
I agree, it's dumb. But dems the rules.
A great sword should technically supply reach and/or close combat alternatively… because it's so long… but it doesn't.
O well.
hmm….. I suppose that could work. While it does seem pretty cheap it also appears to be the simplest solution available... and I don't want to needlessly complicate things. :/
Technically I believe using a 2-handed weapon 1-handed has a flat -2 penalty.
Really? A flat -2 penalty would work. The spear was mostly for reach before the enemy closed (or to keep them from closing). Usually the spear was dropped once combatants got too close because it was unwieldy up tight.
Which class do you want to do this with?
I was hoping to stat out a 1st level fighter to use as a basic career soldiers in my custom setting.
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You can't use a 2H weapon in one hand. Not possible.
However, the 2H weapon for a creature one size smaller than you counts as a 1H weapon for you. It's not correctly sized, so a -2, and it's got a smaller damage die. But it remains a Reach weapon (if it was one to begin with).
So as a human, you could use a halfling longspear one-handed with a -2 penalty, and bear a shield on your other arm.
Use a longspear sized for a halfling and just eat the -2 penalty. That's the way to do it without a specific fighter archetype or a third party tax feat
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It's not RAW, but...I treat spears a bit like bastard swords:
Spear is Simple 2H and Martial 1H. It's also a Martial double weapon, the blunt end doing 1d6/20x2
Longspear is Simple 2H, Exotic 1H (Str 13, Dex 13, BAB+1)
I am not alone in this.
The phalanx soldier archetype actually does the job pretty well. The armies most people think of when they think shield and spear are either greek or roman or one of the other nations that used hoplites. Greek hoplites basically all fought the same, in a phalanx. People like to think the Spartan were special, but they were hoplites just like Athens and the rest. The difference was that they had more practice being in a phalanx. The Romans just took what the Greeks did and used better materials.
One reason for the historical popularity of spear and shield is that, well, they're cheap. When you're well-equipped adventurers this is not particularly a problem, but when you're a local chieftain on a short budget trying to outfit all your followers, well, you can get a lot more of them with spears than with anything else. 20 guys with fancy pole arms, or 200 with spears... ? One guy with plate mail, or 50 guys with tower shields... ?
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Tesoe is basically right. Combat with a spear was usually in a phalanx. If you weren't in a phalanx you only used the spear against charges and as a reach weapon. All that crap we saw in movies like Troy and 300 were not the way basic soldiers fought. Maybe a 20th level fighter like Achilles or a pack of 12th to 15th level fighters like the 300 could do all those fancy moves with a spear but the common soldiers were phalanx fighters holding to their formations.
I would like to see a feat path for advanced spear fighting; but I understand that the awesome spear fighting abilities everybody wants would come at higher and higher levels.
After some consideration taking a -2 penalty on a normal spear seems the best option to me. Using a short spear as a "light spear" would also work but just seems kinda cheap. Especially when using a 9 foot plus spear. I think the -2 isn't too bad when it's just used at reach in a formation. So I guess my question would then become are there any rules on formation fighting?
PS. This wouldn't be just for phalanxes. Don't forget about the shield walls used all across northern Europe.
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The phalanx soldier archetype actually does the job pretty well. The armies most people think of when they think shield and spear are either greek or roman or one of the other nations that used hoplites. Greek hoplites basically all fought the same, in a phalanx. People like to think the Spartan were special, but they were hoplites just like Athens and the rest. The difference was that they had more practice being in a phalanx. The Romans just took what the Greeks did and used better materials.
The romans didn't use spears. They used gladiuses & pilums. It made them less effective in a straight on brawl, but they were far more versitile.
On the other hand - the greek phalanx was pretty hosed if they were flanked. But Greece is so mountanous that it was hard to do.
And don't even get me started on the macedonian phalanx. :P (Bucklers & 18ft spears. Really - the main reason it didn't get peppered to death by arrows is because for centuries in that part of the world the greek phalanx was practically immune. So armies didn't use archers much by the time they were employed.) But they were mostly to keep enemies in place for the heavy cav to hammer them anyway.
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Throughout history, in countless cultures, warriors fight with a spear and shield combo. How is this best represented in game? Does pretty much every soldier ever have to take the phalanx soldier fighter archetype? That seems a bit silly. Surely there must be some way of using a spear with a shield in formation fighting without having to depend on a single archetype? I feel I must be missing something in the rules.
Really - the only time I can think of where people used long spears combined with shields was in Greek phalanxes and armies which derived their tactics from them. (Admittedly - over a thousand or so year period. But it was only in a rather small part of the world.)
Really - the only time I can think of where people used long spears combined with shields was in Greek phalanxes and armies which derived their tactics from them. (Admittedly - over a thousand or so year period. But it was only in a rather small part of the world.)
Germanic/Scandinavian people used shield walls. So pretty much from the British Isles to Russia. Persians and on into India used similar formations too. Also ancient Egyptians did the shield and spear thing. I don't really know much about eastern history. Though I have seen something like it in a pseudo-historical Hong Kong action flick before. :p
Egyptians: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/99/ff/5d/99ff5de94f97d5515cfbe577059 8db92.jpg
Persians: http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3a/37/49/3a374989ac6b8c484bf43ff3838 193fb.jpg
Normans: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eNWraLqlvuo/S-Z_B84BX2I/AAAAAAAAB8A/DH-SY_C0sTA/s 1600/SHIELD+WALL+2.jpg
Just to show a few examples.
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Really - the only time I can think of where people used long spears combined with shields was in Greek phalanxes and armies which derived their tactics from them. (Admittedly - over a thousand or so year period. But it was only in a rather small part of the world.)Germanic/Scandinavian people used shield walls. So pretty much from the British Isles to Russia. Persians and on into India used similar formations too. Also ancient Egyptians did the shield and spear thing. I don't really know much about eastern history. Though I have seen something like it in a pseudo-historical Hong Kong action flick before. :p
Egyptians: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/99/ff/5d/99ff5de94f97d5515cfbe577059 8db92.jpg
Persians: http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3a/37/49/3a374989ac6b8c484bf43ff3838 193fb.jpg
Normans: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eNWraLqlvuo/S-Z_B84BX2I/AAAAAAAAB8A/DH-SY_C0sTA/s 1600/SHIELD+WALL+2.jpgJust to show a few examples.
I'm not sure if those would be considered long-spears in Pathfinder terms. (I did know of others with spear & shield - just not as long as hopilites' spears.) I think that the suggested use of a trident with the fluff of a single tine would cover those.
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I fought with long spear and shield in an 11th century historical reenactment society. English peasant conscripts were so equipped and fought in shield wall formation. It was historically reasonably effective and cheap. The peasant soldiers would get butchered by armoured huscarls wielding Dane axes and longswords though.
The phalanx soldier archetype seems like a fair approximation.
I'm not sure if those would be considered long-spears in Pathfinder terms. (I did know of others with spear & shield - just not as long as hopilites' spears.) I think that the suggested use of a trident with the fluff of a single tine would cover those.
Indeed most of those would just be regular medium spears. I suppose the trident thing works. Just seems a rather silly way of having to go about it.
How long do you believe those spears are?
Probably around 5-6 feet on average. About as long as someone is tall.