Why am I writing this? because I am fed up of seeing encounters reduced to a set of die rolls. Heres the typical scenario:
Now, I'm not having a go at all you GM's who do this - we all do it (I know I have), but there is no "atmosphere" involved. Thed Fighters ready weapons, archers get out bows, spellcasters prepare spells, all roll initiative, a few hits later encounter over.
The reason I have been thinking about it is because I have recently been watching Mountain Monsters{/i] on Discovery channel. Now I don't care if you think it's all hogwash or not, I'm not here to start an argument about all that, but it does show how an encounter should be run.
Here are a bunch of seasoned hunters, chasing after whatever cryptid it happens to be that week. Unlike our heroes, they actually [i]know it's out there, does their encounter go like the Tatzlwyrm encounter?
No, it does not. First they hear it. Twigs snapping, or maybe some kind of noise alerts them to it's presence, but they only know roughly where it is. Edging forward into the darkness (they always hunt at night), one of them might catch a glimpse of it behind some brush.
Now heres where it gets interesting, instead of attacking, it disappears. Why? Well most large creatures are ambush predators. getting spotted is not comfortable for them, they want to get close unseen, so they vanish. The hunters edge their way over to where they saw it, only to find it's moved. Pausing to listen, they hear it again and the whole process goes around again.
exceptions are made for the pack animals; whether it's the Yahoos or the Grass man, they both attack from a distance (one by knocking trees down on the hunters, one by throwing logs at them). In all cases, the quarry is using it's natural advantages to try and outwit the hunters; running rings around them, attacking from the darkness, etc.
Now in a fantasy environment things are little different. Darkvision exists but whenever there is a light source about it is limited to 30' (so the same distance as normal vision by lamplight). This gives ample opportunity for the party to be outmaneouvred. Even Goblins have 60' darkvision. How would it be if they started shooting out of the darkness? The pc's wouldn't necessarily know what was out there, and running out into the darkness could be suicidal. How do they react? Do the fighters run out into uncertain territory, risking a fall ore being mobbed by goblins? if they don't have darkvision, how will they cope being blind? Will they think to wait until someone casts a light spell on an arrow? Will the goblins stick around when the light spell lands, or will they just move position? This simple scenario can really keep tensions high.
So that's my thoughts on running a better encounter.
I have no problem with the die rolls, only in the way they are used.
Typically, I see an encounter start like this:
What happens next depends on how they react; the goal of the quarry would be to isolate one of the party members and launch a surprise attack; if seen it would be to run off, circle around and come back to try again. All the pcs know is that there is "something" out there. If they keep their wits about them, it will eventually go look for easier prey; if they don't, one of them will end up as dinner. If they corner it or somehow manage to enrage, entangle or otherwise trap it, then it's game on and the pcs (if they are smart and want to force the encounter) should be allowed to do that. Reminding them that this creature that is stalking them may go after a lone woodsman - or even a child (if appropriate in that location) may help them think about it.
The important thing is to keep it elusive, give them only distant sounds and glimpses, dribble out bits of imformation (a large hairy shape, a toothy maw, etc.) and make them think about how they can force the creature into an encounter. The knowledge (nature) roll might be used to give some indications of what it could be, but should not be used to find a definitive answer until a close encounter takes place.
Bear in mind, PCs are likely to have darkvision or low-light vision. It's possible they are using magical light to see as well. I like creating more drama in encounters, but you have to decide how long you want to draw out the encounter (game time wise). I have used sound, smell, sight, and sixth sense (you feel someone or something watching you) when trying to set a mood.
Sometimes its fun to give no warning and just have the thing charge from stealth! =)
Creating a mood and having fun is all about knowing your players and how to get them excited about the encounter. Good luck!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I understand your point, OP, but you can always just add more description to the situation. The dice are not really a problem.
As an example instead of saying "you see a creature with fur" you can say "Out of the corner of your eye you spy a large feline shaped creature off in the distance with striped fur, sneaking up to your position.
After the knowledge check:
You identify it as a tiger, dangerous beast who are typically apex predators. While powerful killers, they tend to prefer ambushes..<then go on to give a certain amount of info about the creature depending on the how high the knowledge roll was>.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If your point is generally that encounters are much more satisfying when the "bad guys" behave as though they are actually living things which want to go on living, I agree completely. Using perception and knowledge checks does not, however, get in the way of this. The crux of the problem is not the mechanics, but rather the creature's behavior. Does it charge the party suicidally like a video game monster, or does it behave with a certain level of intelligence or, barring that, cunning? Getting this aspect of the game right is on the DM, not the designers.
I agree, like I said I am not against using rolls; but they are a tool of the encounter, not the encounter itself.
and while the DM should be trying to use description to set the encounter, and playing creatures smart, most often they don't. Whether it's lack of imagination, time or they're just "in a rut", most often the monster just rushes up to the pcs (or they rush up to it) and bares it's throat.
I know when I've GMed, it's just been assumed that all creatures behave this way, so all creatures did. Lighting problems were largely waived (probably too much bookkeeping), stealth was determined by an opposed perception roll (and if it failed, they just charged the pcs).
This contrasts greatly with the Mountain Monsters group. Most of the injuries caused in this programme comes from someone slipping down an unseen obstacle (slippery rock face, hidden den, log, etc.) and the only time anyone goes charging off on their own they get severely reprimanded.
Which kind of highlights another problem: in encounters, a map is used which shows where all the difficult terrain is. In reality, you can't always see where difficult terrain is since there is always a patch of mud to slip on, a hidden tree root or some other obstacle that you can't see if you go rushing off. You might see that there is some brush between you and your destination, but you don't usually try and run around it in the dark because of the hidden dangers. PC's however, seem to have perfect knowledge and happily run around difficult terrain because it is not hidden. That needs to change.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why am I writing this? because I am fed up of seeing encounters reduced to a set of die rolls. Heres the typical scenario:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **Now, I'm not having a go at all you GM's who do this - we all do it (I know I have), but there is no "atmosphere" involved. Thed Fighters ready weapons, archers get out bows, spellcasters prepare spells, all roll initiative, a few hits later encounter over.
The reason I have been thinking about it is because I have recently been watching Mountain Monsters{/i] on Discovery channel. Now I don't care if you think it's all hogwash or not, I'm not here to start an argument about all that, but it does show how an encounter should be run.
Here are a bunch of seasoned hunters, chasing after whatever cryptid it happens to be that week. Unlike our heroes, they actually [i]know it's out there, does their encounter go like the Tatzlwyrm encounter?
Of course not, but that's as much a function of the Tatzlwyrm as of the dice. The cryptid is trying very hard not to be seen -- if it exists at all -- while the Tazlywrym is trying to eat the party. There's a big difference between looking for a fawn camouflaged in the undergrowth and trying to identify it, and trying to run away from a charging rhinocerous.
One of the chief issues with a lot of encounters as published is that the monsters are the aggressors; there's a hungry bandersnatch that "attacks the party as soon as it comes in range." This is unrealistic, particularly so for animal encounters. In real life, even grizzly bears would rather you left them alone and will run away rather than attack except under very unusual circumstances.
There are also far too many carnivores and not enough prey. What does the tatzlywyrm eat when it can't get wizard?
But it makes for a very boring game if the encounter is "you hear a rustle in the bushes and see an Irish elk bounding away."
Typically, predators can be measured on two axes:
1) Do they see everything as food, or only a specific set of prey animals?
2) Do they hunt alone or in a pack?
Examples:
- see everything as food/hunt alone: tiger and polar bear
- see everything as food/hunt in packs: crocodile, some types of shark
- hunt a specific set of prey/hunt alone: puma
- hunt a specific set of prey/hunt in packs: wolves and dolphins
----------------------------------------
Generally speaking, predators that do not see everything as food will avoid humans. There will be exceptions to this rule, especially if the predator is a pack animal with numbers on its side, but "shy" predators will very rarely attack a party of armed humans.
The other type - the "super-apex" predators like polar bears and crocodiles, are the ones who might be realistically expected to actually attack a party, but even these animals are not stupid. As a DM, I have found that the best way to set up such encounters is to either allow the creatures to surround the party and attack en masse, or to have a single very strong creature which could quickly dispatch any individual PC stalk the party and attempt to catch one of the PCs alone.
Indeed, one could even have certain peak predators which have learned to follow groups of armed humans with the knowledge that blood follows in their wake. These creatures might choose to feast on the carrion left by a battle or might even attack during a battle while the PCs (and their opponents) are distracted.
Sure, there has to be a trade-off between engaging the pcs and realism; if a creature like the tatzlwyrm did exist, it would probably take a look at the pcs and think, "There's easier prey", and off it goes. No encounter. The most the pcs would know about it is a rustle in the bushes - that's totally boring, and not what we want.
But if we run the Tazlwyrm encounter properly, it's looking for an easy kill. That means stalking the pcs and waiting for one of them to be isolated or distracted.
Now this throws up some interesting problems; the pcs could ignore the Tatzlwyrm, putting up with the occasional sound of something in the nearby brush, and hope that nothing isolates/distracts them; or they could attempt to entrap the Tazlwyrm long enough to dispatch it.
What if we force their hand? Thankyou, the secret fire, for suggesting one possibility (getting it to attack while they are engaged against other opponents), other possibilities might include a washed-out bridge (typically they would cross one by one, so whoever is left until last becomes vulnerable). This works well with hints you have been dropping of something stalking them (rustling in the bushes, snapping twigs, etc.). If the Pcs decide to risk it, they deserve what they get (plus the guys on the other side can still use ranged weapons). Once the pcs get the message that things stalking them should be taken out ASAP, they will start gearing up accordingly.
Sure, there has to be a trade-off between engaging the pcs and realism; if a creature like the tatzlwyrm did exist, it would probably take a look at the pcs and think, "There's easier prey", and off it goes. No encounter. The most the pcs would know about it is a rustle in the bushes - that's totally boring, and not what we want.
But if we run the Tazlwyrm encounter properly, it's looking for an easy kill. That means stalking the pcs and waiting for one of them to be isolated or distracted.
Well, that's kind of the point..... is it? Does it?
I think the idea of waiting until the party is fighting something else is not that realistic; I'm not sure the tazylwyrm has that kind of tactical sense. It's got an intelligence of 5, which puts it ahead of a polar bear but still not exactly Julius Caesar. I also get the feeling that the tazywyrm itself is supposed to be a super-apex predator (it is a dragon, after all), so it has no need to look for "easy" kills because everything is an easy kill to it.
"Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I will fear no evil, for I am the meanest son-of-a-b+%*! in the Valley, and evil Chuck Norris fears me instead."
And the problem becomes that almost everything is a super-apex predator and the meanest son-of-a-b+&@@ in the valley. What the hell is going to eat a roc? Even in the real world, raptors will cheerfully attack anything they think they can eat, and the only reason they don't attack humans is because we're too big to carry away.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just checked out the official description of a tatzywrm, and I'm more convinced than ever that it's not going to stalk the pcs.
Yellow eyes briefly flicker from a hole in a nearby maple tree. Suddenly, a large reptile leaps out, as green as the surrounding foliage and at least six feet in length. [...]
Like full dragons, tatzlwyrms are strict carnivores. They spend most of their time hiding, waiting to attack any prey that ventures too near. They consume their food slowly in their lairs, in the dark security and seclusion they thrive on. Tatzlwyrms have a remarkable knack for ambush and camouflage.
A tatzlwyrm is an ambush predator that strikes from hiding; it's a pouncer, not a stalker. (It's even described as a pouncer, and of course has the pounce trait.) The first you'll know that a tatzlwyrm is around is when you roll initiative. If you're lucky, it won't get a surprise round in first.
I think the idea of waiting until the party is fighting something else is not that realistic; I'm not sure the tazylwyrm has that kind of tactical sense. It's got an intelligence of 5, which puts it ahead of a polar bear but still not exactly Julius Caesar.
Oh, I dunno. Barracudas have a tendency to follow divers around because they have apparently figured out that humans often lead them to food. Smaller predators will often follow larger predators around looking to pick up scraps. Ever seen the honey badger video? That's what those little wild dogs and birds were doing...waiting for dumbass to do all the work, and then snapping up what he had flushed out.
Animals don't need a high intelligence to learn certain behaviors through evolutionary pressure. A predator who stalks a party need not have a clear plan such "waiting until they're fighting someone else". It only needs to have somehow developed the instinct that armed groups of humans can lead it to food, which is not implausible, at all.
Animals could also be attracted to the sounds and smells of battle without having first stalked the party. Sharks may not mess with a spear fisher the first time they see him, but they're going to take an interest once he's gotten his prey. Wolves were somewhat notorious for showing up at medieval battlefields to pick up scraps, to include wounded but still living soldiers. There are a lot of behaviors that real, natural animals exhibit which could be a hell of a lot more threatening to a party than standard "charge and die" tactics.
In the case of the tazylwyrm, I agree, it's an ambush predator and will behave as such, though that doesn't mean it won't run away if it takes one on the nose (and doesn't die in the first round under focused fire).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the idea of waiting until the party is fighting something else is not that realistic; I'm not sure the tazylwyrm has that kind of tactical sense. It's got an intelligence of 5, which puts it ahead of a polar bear but still not exactly Julius Caesar.Oh, I dunno. Barracudas have a tendency to follow divers around because they have apparently figured out that humans often lead them to food. Smaller predators will often follow larger predators around looking to pick up scraps. Ever seen the honey badger video? That's what those little wild dogs and birds were doing...waiting for dumbass to do all the work, and then snapping up what he had flushed out.
In general, yes. I was specifically talking about the tatzlwyrm, and super-apex predators generalized slightly. Barracudas will follow divers because they flush out food, but orcas don't bother. If they're following a diver, it's because the diver is food.
A predator who stalks a party need not have a clear plan such "waiting until they're fighting someone else". It only needs to have somehow developed the instinct that armed groups of humans can lead it to food, which is not implausible, at all.
Right. But, again, to a super-apex predator, you don't need to follow food to food.
Animals could also be attracted to the sounds and smells of battle without having first stalked the party. Sharks may not mess with a spear fisher the first time they see him, but they're going to take an interest once he's gotten his prey. Wolves were somewhat notorious for showing up at medieval battlefields to pick up scraps, to include wounded but still living soldiers. There are a lot of behaviors that real, natural animals exhibit which could be a hell of a lot more threatening to a party than standard "charge and die" tactics.
There are. The problem is that after about CR 2, you run out of real, natural animals -- and what you're left with are the kind of animals that don't need to pick up scraps. The realistic behavior for a predator with no natural enemies whose prey can't fight back effectively is simply to take what it wants and eat it.
I agree, like I said I am not against using rolls; but they are a tool of the encounter, not the encounter itself.
and while the DM should be trying to use description to set the encounter, and playing creatures smart, most often they don't. Whether it's lack of imagination, time or they're just "in a rut", most often the monster just rushes up to the pcs (or they rush up to it) and bares it's throat.
I know when I've GMed, it's just been assumed that all creatures behave this way, so all creatures did. Lighting problems were largely waived (probably too much bookkeeping), stealth was determined by an opposed perception roll (and if it failed, they just charged the pcs).
This contrasts greatly with the Mountain Monsters group. Most of the injuries caused in this programme comes from someone slipping down an unseen obstacle (slippery rock face, hidden den, log, etc.) and the only time anyone goes charging off on their own they get severely reprimanded.
Which kind of highlights another problem: in encounters, a map is used which shows where all the difficult terrain is. In reality, you can't always see where difficult terrain is since there is always a patch of mud to slip on, a hidden tree root or some other obstacle that you can't see if you go rushing off. You might see that there is some brush between you and your destination, but you don't usually try and run around it in the dark because of the hidden dangers. PC's however, seem to have perfect knowledge and happily run around difficult terrain because it is not hidden. That needs to change.
I admittedly dont really use dim lighting, but I do enforce darkness, and I use the monsters in a tactical manners. I have never met a GM who ignored all lighting, and used no tactics. What you are describing is the minority from my play experience. I am interested however to see what others say.
In the case of the tazylwyrm, I agree, it's an ambush predator and will behave as such, though that doesn't mean it won't run away if it takes one on the nose (and doesn't die in the first round under focused fire).
In real life most opponents won't fight to the death. A few years ago I started having NPC's surrender and have monsters run away if they thought they could escape.
As for the tazylwyrm it depends on how much of a dragon's arrogance the GM thinks it has.
Seems to me, there are different styles of hunting among animals
First are pack hunters. Simple and straightforward, they attempt to isolate an individual and flank it, then attack enough masse. The difficulty (for me) is that their tactics rely on their opponents running away so that they can isolate a weak individual; the pcs will likely stand their ground or fight back. How would a predator react - even an apex predator - when their "prey" doesn't run away like they're supposed to? I surmise that at the very least, it would find it disconcerting, and possibly even enough to call off the attack.
Next comes stalkers; these are what I have mostly talked about and can be a flavorful encounter if run correctly.
Lastly, there are true ambush predators, like the Tatzlwyrm. If spotted, they may rethink their attack; otherwise they will try to ambush the last member of the group, or an isolated scout or other isolated individual.
This is how it would work in reality; in a game, the first is doable, but not very exciting if the monsters run away after the first round.
The second can get repetitive, but if managed can be a good encounter.
The third is something of a save or suck encounter; if the pcs spot the creature it will probably run away; if they don't it will probably kill a pc before they can do anything about it. Not sure what can be done about this.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Are we talking strictly about animals/animal-level inteligence here? If so well you're kind of stuck with the game mechanics - PCs make perception checks and either notice something or don't, then they either get a surprise round or not. The creature likely runs away unless it has superior numbers or some incredible sense of its own power versus that of the party.
If however we factor in creatures with some intelligence, it may be up to the GM to give it a reason not to be the standard encounter. Take a group of four level 1 PCs and a lone worg.
The worg is CR2 and is powerful enough to leap out of hiding, take out maybe 2 guys or the whole party with good rolls, but the odds are it'll perish before the party does. So what if the encounter isn't what you expect?
You hear the snapping of twigs and spot red, beady eyes in a muzzle of black with fangs bared. Out steps a hulking, lupine form. However instead of rushing to attack it merely sneers. The creature before you is a worg, and it looks like he's here to talk, not to fight.
Sometimes if you want a different encounter, you need to give the players a reason to do something other than roll perception and initiative.
Lastly, there are true ambush predators, like the Tatzlwyrm. If spotted, they may rethink their attack; otherwise they will try to ambush the last member of the group, or an isolated scout or other isolated individual.
The third is something of a save or suck encounter; if the pcs spot the creature it will probably run away; if they don't it will probably kill a pc before they can do anything about it. Not sure what can be done about this.
Careful use of challenge ratings would be my first suggestion. An ambush predator would be a poor boss monster precisely because the first you would know about it is when the wizard dies, but at a lower level, it would be a good way of softening the party up, using some resources, and doing some damage on the way to the boss.
Explicit warnings would be another good thing. If the party are wandering through the Tatzlwyrm Woods and have already found the dead body of a moose with tatzlwyrm tracks around it, I have fewer compunctions about letting the party get ambushed by a tatzlwyrm than I would in, say, a Chelish cathedral during Mass.
This is also a role traditionally played by Ensign Rothemd (German for "red shirt"); to announce the presence of something dangerous. If you don't have handy color-coded ensigns around, camp followers and bearers like Nodwick will do handily as well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
snip
... in encounters, a map is used which shows where all the difficult terrain is. In reality, you can't always see where difficult terrain is since there is always a patch of mud to slip on, a hidden tree root or some other obstacle that you can't see if you go rushing off. You might see that there is some brush between you and your destination, but you don't usually try and run around it in the dark because of the hidden dangers. PC's however, seem to have perfect knowledge and happily run around difficult terrain because it is not hidden. That needs to change.
1 - Players are heroes, who don't enjoy being told they tripped on a stick - they also aren't "reality TV" people attempting to create drama.
2 - If you want the environment to be more difficult, make it more difficult. There are plenty of game mechanics for that. "That brush is difficult terrain, you'll move at half-speed." Tell them they'll have to make an Acrobatics check or a Reflex save to avoid the obstacle. If you want, you can treat terrain obstacles like traps. For instance, a loose section of soil that is about to give way on a hill is essentially a pit trap. Set a reasonable DC to notice the dangerous terrain and a DC to avoid falling when it goes off. Maybe characters with Survival or Kn:Nature get a bonus to notice them. Etc.
3 - Encounters don't have to be roll-init-go-nukes. One thing I like to do is keep things in non-init, but limit the amount of action each character can take. In this situation, characters can take/make strategic choices that up the drama and give the GM chances to describe what's happening. "Fighty McSpellsword hustles around the ridge. Sneaky O'Bowman, you see the beast follow your friend's noise. It looks like it's trying to sneak around behind him... It doesn't seem to hear you as you clamber up over the boulder." It's more fun. In my experience, once you roll initiative, players sort of go "the jig is up!" and start charging and shooting, but by having your beasts and baddies act strategically in encounters, you will encourage players to do the same.