So by now our group is very familiar with the rule that tells you summoned cards cant summon other cards but how about this situation?
Damiel is at the location which makes increases the difficulty of barrier checks by 3. I forget the name of the location but it is especially horrible- and the closing requirement for the location is to summon and defeat a barrier.
Damiel beats the henchman and attempts to close the location - out comes the random summoned barrier and its pirate hunting.
Does that barrier still summon the random ship?
We played that it did because you need to defeat the barrier. Hilariously enough the ship that showed up was Goblin Weildling - which summons a Grindylow. Now I think the Grindylow wouldn't actually be summoned due to the summoning rules (although we did play it that way for the extra challenge) but what about the summoned Pirate Hunting and its ship
I would have played it the same way. Otherwise, you have no way to defeat the barrier and therefore no way to close the location, and I don't think that would be intentional.
The "Summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned." is more intended to stop something like a location that says "If you encounter a monster, each other character at the location must summon and encounter a monster." Without the the prohibition against summoned cards causing other cards to be summoned, you'd have an infinite loop of summoned monsters even with just 2 characters:
You encounter a monster, so I summon and encounter a monster.
Now I've encountered that summoned monster, so you must summon and encounter a monster.
Now you've encountered a summoned monster, so I must summon and encounter a monster.
Now I've encounter that summoned monster, so you must summon and encounter a monster...etc.
But your situation wasn't going to create that loop.
I'm not sure this was ever said, but I really take "Summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned." to mean that you always do the things the summoned card tells you to do, but that other cards that might trigger off that summoned card cant' summon new cards. In other words, it says "Summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned." not "The powers of summoned cards cannot summon other cards." So summoned Pirate Hunting is allowed to summon a ship, because that is what the powers of Pirate Hunting do. But if the location card said, "If you encounter a barrier, summon and encounter a monster" that wouldn't happen. Or if a card said, "If you encounter a ship, after you act summon and encounter the ship Truewind" that wouldn't work either. In both the cases the difference is whether the power on the summoned card tells you to summon something or if another card is trying to trigger off the summoned card.
Just my opinion, but it seems to make sense.
Aaaah I see - but so in your interpretation would the Grindylow show up or not? I think it wouldn't because the Goblin Weildling is being triggered off the original pirate hunting barrier right?
Ah, I missed that in your first post. Yes, it would in my interpretation. And really, there is no reason for it not to. As far as I can see, it wouldn't cause any problems, at least as far as game mechanics and overhead.
Again, this is all my opinion and interpretation. So I could be wrong.
Thanks so much - It was kind of fun seeing all the nested summons so glad we played it the right way then.
Thanks so much - It was kind of fun seeing all the nested summons so glad we played it the right way then.
Well, I don't know that it was "the right way" so much as the way that one other single person would have played it too.
Feel like the "right" way to play is definitely to summon everything all the way down to the Grindylow (and I would've enjoyed that just for the absurdity of picking up like four cards to close a location). The intent of "summoned cards can't cause other cards to be summoned" is to prevent an infinite summoning loop, like Hawkmoon points out. Like Garrison and such, right? Hawkmoon lays out the logic pretty well, I think. You to imagine the rule applying to the summoned card's existence, not the summoned cards powers. Maybe it's best to think of it as something like "summoned cards cannot activate any summoning conditions but their own."
That raises an interesting point about Goblin Weidling. Ships are pretty much always summoned (usually by Enemy Ship or Pirate Hunting), because they can't be mixed into location decks. So by the letter of the rules there's almost no way for Goblin Weidling to actually summon the Riptide Grindylow.
As strange as it sounds, this is one instance where the rules can cause a little hiccup in the situation.
The rules do state that "Summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned."
So, by the rules, any additional summons caused by a summoned card are completely and totally ignored, since "cannot" overrules all.
The initial intent of it was to stop infinite summons, such as encountering a bane, and the scenario rules saying when someone encounters that bane, everyone summons and encounters that bane, which would then cause everyone to summon and encounter that bane, which would then cause everyone to summon and encounter that bane, which would then cause everyone to summon and encounter that bane, etc, etc.
So, I think the OP did play it the way it's 'intended' to be played, even if the rules say not to.
I think Goblin Weidling is that way, too. As the poster above said, pretty much the only normal way to encounter it is to have it summoned, and because it's summoned, its "before you act" summon ability wouldn't trigger, by the rules.
Just for reference:
Sometimes you will be told to summon cards or to add cards
to a deck. When this happens, retrieve the cards from the box.
However, if you’re told to summon a card that’s already in play, just
imagine you have another copy of that card for the new encounter;
this summoned copy ceases to exist at the end of the encounter.
Summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned.
...
It may be able to be read as "Summoned cards cannot trigger abilities of other cards that cause cards to be summoned," depending on your interpretation of "cannot cause," which would allow its own abilities to be triggered (and I think that's the intent of the rule).
As always, though, I could be wrong.
If you want big summoning chains to happen but no infinite loops, then
If you would summon and encounter a card that you are already encountering, instead banish the newly summoned card.
This leaves the card neither defeated nor undefeated, assuming it was a bane.
If you encounter a monster, summon and encounter a Riptide Grindylow henchman before you act.
Possible encounters if you are alone at the location:
Skeleton: RG, Skeleton
Riptide Grindlylow: RG
Owlbeartross: RG x2, Owlbeartross
Hawkmoon's location wasn't prevented from causing an infinite loop by 'summoned cards can't summon other cards'. The location does the summoning, not the summoned card.
My suggestion can handle 'at this location, when you encounter an Ancient Skeleton henchman, so does everyone else at the location'.
Adding to this a bit, my wife and I had our second attempt at The Secret of Mancatcher Cove tonight. We failed the first time by running out of blessings, but coasted this time.
Krelloort (if there are cards in the location) summons the villain Sea Devil Prince, who in turn would summon a Sea Devil henchman. The interpretation I'm arguing for would mean I'd still encounter that Sea Devil henchman, while the interpretation that "summon cards can't summon other cards" would mean I'd wouldn't.
Unfortunately, I didn't really get to encounter him, because the Matron was the last card in the location deck, so when we added Krelloort, he was the only card.
If you want big summoning chains to happen but no infinite loops, then
If you would summon and encounter a card that you are already encountering, instead banish the newly summoned card.This leaves the card neither defeated nor undefeated, assuming it was a bane.
That may be an issue. Say I have a barrier that just says : summon monster X, this barrier is defeated/undefeated based on the result of ...
Maybe something like...
If you would summon a second bane that would be the same as one you are already encountering, do not summon it and proceed as if this second bane has been defeated.
There are currently a number of things in discussion about summoning. They're pretty complicates, but I'd expect that rules entry to get an adjustment soonish.
In the meantime, yes, go ahead and let that summoned barrier summon a ship.
Has there been any amendment to the "Summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned." rule, in the end?
I summoned and encountered Goblin Weidling a few times yesterday; it's disappointing to play it by the rules.
Has there been any amendment to the "Summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned." rule, in the end?
I summoned and encountered Goblin Weidling a few times yesterday; it's disappointing to play it by the rules.
There has not. Specific instances such as Widowmaker Isle have been addressed, but no rules change was made.
I would make a special exception for ships summoning other cards. Since ships are only ever summoned and encountered you should treat them as being able to summon other cards. Any cards they summon follow the regular rules, however. I can say with certainty that it is Rules As Intended to do so, at any rate.
Maybe it's best to think of it as something like "summoned cards cannot activate any summoning conditions but their own."
This still suits me.
Though "summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned," may imply an external card with its use of "cause." Goblin Wielding isn't "causing" the summon of a Riptide Grindylow, it's just summoning it straight up!
...though I'd be the first to admit that's a pretty willful distinction/definition of "cause"...
Maybe it's best to think of it as something like "summoned cards cannot activate any summoning conditions but their own."This still suits me.
Though "summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned," may imply an external card with its use of "cause." Goblin Wielding isn't "causing" the summon of a Riptide Grindylow, it's just summoning it straight up!
...though I'd be the first to admit that's a pretty willful distinction/definition of "cause"...
There are edge cases with "summoned cards cannot activate any summoning conditions but their own." Consider a power on on monster "Before you act, each other character summons and encounters this monster" -- by your rule this would cause an infinite recursion because it's a summoning condition on the card itself.
On the other hand, there are cases where I think it should be allowed to recurse but currently can't. Namely, summoning ships summoning things, or summoning Pirate Hunting summoning a ship, summoning Owlbeartross summoning a Riptide Grindylow, summoning Sea Devil Prince summoning a Sea Devil, etc. In all of those cases, the rules say it doesn't happen but common sense would indicate the opposite. In Wrath, the only instance I can think of where it should similarly recurse but doesn't is in the scenario where you encounter a henchman every time you move, and one of the locations is the Great Hall where you encounter the servitor demon whenever you encounter a henchman or villain.
Maybe it's best to think of it as something like "summoned cards cannot activate any summoning conditions but their own."This still suits me.
Though "summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned," may imply an external card with its use of "cause." Goblin Wielding isn't "causing" the summon of a Riptide Grindylow, it's just summoning it straight up!
...though I'd be the first to admit that's a pretty willful distinction/definition of "cause"...
The problem with that interpretation is that it allows monsters that have powers that summon copies of themselves to have the copies summon copies in a never ending loop.
It might be easier to modify the ships that summon to do something other than summon, though that gets a bit wordy (for example "Before you act, encounter Riptide Grindylow. After the encounter, treat Riptide Grindylow as if it were summoned")
That doesn't solve the issue of summoning barriers that summon, but that could be modified with something like "Summon a barrier who's difficulty to defeat is greater than 0", since the summon barriers are all "See Below" or "None", I think.
I'm sure there's a ultra-clean wording that covers most edge cases, and I'm not saying they SHOULDN'T work towards that, but isn't common sense a pretty good band-aid for infinite recursion? Like, I can see people being unsure about "should a summoned Pirate Hunting summoned a Goblin Weidling which then summons a Riptide Grindylow?" and I can even see people pausing for a sec over "should this Demonic Tree I just summoned in the Throne Room summon a Servitor Demon first?" (I have!) But I think it's okay, for now, to put the onus on the player to figure out "wait a minute, if Kyra encounters a giant maggot swarm then Adowyn encounters a giant maggot swarm then they BOTH encounter INFINITE giant maggot swarms until their hand is empty and the turn ends and I hate my life???? >>>>>>:|"
Yes, we could use common sense, but there are instances where common sense and the rules don't match up, so the rules need to be accurate.
I suspect (without going through the three sets that exist today and looking at all of the cards and trying to find interactions) that the number of times that a summoned card should be allowed to summon another card are far fewer than the number of times it shouldn't. If this is the case, it makes more sense to change the cards where it should break the existing rule than to change the rule and try to errata all of the cards that worked before but are broken post-rule change.
Totally. I agree that discrete & specific wording is better, I just mean in the meantime, there's a gulf of difference between "forgetting Throne Room can't proc off Arboreal Blight" (could happen in the heat of the moment) and "can Giant Maggot summon infinite copies of itself" (has anyone actually seriously considered this?)
But this is all predicated off the idea that the desginers DO want you to encounter the Grindylow when you run into a Goblin Weidling through Pirate Hunting. Maybe they don't!
(but probably they do, considering RAW, there's no way for Goblin Weidling to EVER summon a Grindylow, as people have stated, since Ships always seem to be summoned)
So just for my money, as someone who kind of likes the enthralling tragedy of turning over card after card and being like "oh no, I have to summon a Ship AND an Owlbear AND a Grindylow?? :( :( :(," I agree with Andrew: if the intent is to let summoning chains happen, but not proc separate summoning conditions in the process, it seems like the easiest way is to develop language that says "a card can't infinitely summon itself," since that seems like the major sticking point/only apparent edge case of our suggestion. If the intent is NOT to allow summoning chains to happen it's a done deal already... but I mean... certain cards have issues, then!