|
I looking to put together a Tengu Empiricist Investigator for PFS.
I very much like the archetype, and want not only to try out a class I have never played, but a race as well, and I digging the Tengu.
I am not sure exactly how to handle the build though.
Should I go melee, or ranged? How should I focus the build?
Any advice is welcome.
|
|
The Empiricist is a lovely archetype. Tengu is an interesting choice, since while they don't get a bonus to int, bonuses to wisdom (for perception) and dex aren't bad. Still, it is going to be really costly to get the intelligence you want on a 20pt buy. The only time I ever played an investigator was when I played the pregen Quinn at 4th level. I noticed that his stats were actually pretty MAD. He started out with a 17 Int (after applying racial) and had positive stats in most other attributes.
Still, I really like tengus. You also get a chance at picking up some exotic weapon proficiencies for better weapons than the investigator gets. With a tengu, I'm not certain whether I'd go ranged or go for a dex to damage melee build. Both will eat up lots of feats, but I think that the dex to damage build would eat up less and give you an option to other things with your feats (like extra inspiration.)
Would you keep the gifted linguist? I'd be tempted to do so with an Investigator, as much as I love glide.
Hmm
|
|
Gifted Linguist is nice.
I figure I could reduce my wisdom down to 10, after racial mods, and bring charisma down to 8, or 7, as I will eventually get to use intelligence for many social skills.
If it was for melee, I figure unarmed/natural would work well, and just wait for an Agile AoMF, or choose a weapon that works with Slashing Grace.
Maybe a Rapier.
If ranged, I figure a Shortbow is the choice, as it can have the Inspired enchantment. I would need the Ranged Study feat though.
|
|
Very rough melee build:
Male tengu investigator (empiricist) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30, 100, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 162)
LN Medium humanoid (tengu)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10 (+3 Dex)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee aldori dueling sword +3 (1d8+1/19-20) or
. . sap +3 (1d6+1 nonlethal) or
. . bite +3 (1d3+1)
Ranged shortbow +3 (1d6/×3)
Investigator (Empiricist) Extracts Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 1st—long arm{super}ACG{/super}, shield
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 14
Feats Weapon Finesse
Traits hermean paragon (steaming sea), student of philosophy
Skills Acrobatics +7, Craft (alchemy) +7 (+8 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +3, Disable Device +8, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Linguistics +11, Perception +6, Stealth +9; Racial Modifiers +4 Linguistics, +2 Perception, +2 Stealth
Languages Azlanti, Common, Giant, Goblin, Orc, Tengu, Tien
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +1), inspiration (4/day), trapfinding +1
Other Gear aldori dueling sword, arrows (20), sap, shortbow, alchemy crafting kit, backpack, belt pouch, flint and steel, grappling arrow, ink, black, inkpen, mess kit, silk rope (50 ft.), soap, thieves' tools, torch (5), trail rations (5), waterskin, 17 gp, 9 sp, 5 cp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
Arrows - 0/20
Inspiration (+1d6, 4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
Torch - 0/5
Trail rations - 0/5
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alchemy +1 (Su) +1 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea) You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Inspiration (+1d6, 4/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Student of Philosophy Use Int instead of Cha for Diplomacy checks to persuade others and Bluff checks to lie.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Thoughts?
Should I lower the charisma to 7, and bring the strength to 13, for Power Attack later?
That sounds like a good idea. Charisma is pretty much an ultimate dropstat for your build right now. While it looks like you probably won't get Power Attack until at least level 7, assuming you're getting Slashing Grace, a higher Strength would be nothing but beneficial for your carrying capacity. You should tally up your gear weight to see what minimum Strength you'd need. You forgot to add in a formula book, it's free but still 3 lbs. Unless you fully intend to rely on Shield and not wear any armor.
|
|
Okay, updated rough draft:
Male tengu investigator (empiricist) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30, 100, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 162)
LN Medium humanoid (tengu)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+2 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee aldori dueling sword +3 (1d8+1/19-20) or
. . dagger +3 (1d4+1/19-20) or
. . sap +3 (1d6+1 nonlethal) or
. . bite +3 (1d3+1)
Ranged shortbow +3 (1d6/×3)
Investigator (Empiricist) Extracts Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 1st—long arm{super}ACG{/super}, shield
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 14
Feats Weapon Finesse
Traits hermean paragon (steaming sea), student of philosophy
Skills Acrobatics +7, Craft (alchemy) +7 (+8 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +2, Disable Device +8, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Linguistics +11, Perception +6, Stealth +9; Racial Modifiers +4 Linguistics, +2 Perception, +2 Stealth
Languages Azlanti, Common, Draconic, Giant, Osiriani, Tengu, Tien
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +1), inspiration (4/day), trapfinding +1
Other Gear lamellar cuirass, aldori dueling sword, dagger, sap, shortbow with 20 arrows, alchemy crafting kit, backpack, flint and steel, formula book, ink, black, inkpen, mess kit, silk rope (50 ft.), thieves' tools, tobacco, torch (3), trail rations (2), waterskin, 2 gp, 14 sp, 8 cp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
Arrows - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Inspiration (+1d6, 4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
Torch - 0/3
Trail rations - 0/2
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alchemy +1 (Su) +1 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea) You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Inspiration (+1d6, 4/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Student of Philosophy Use Int instead of Cha for Diplomacy checks to persuade others and Bluff checks to lie.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
If using dex-to-damage with fencing or slashing grace, bite and claw are both open for use... generally extremely weak of course, but totally free. If you've got something giving you a flat bonus to all attack and damage rolls, it might be worth thinking about trying to use a pair of free attacks.
I'm hardly an investigator expert, but it looks pretty good to me. Personally I'd be pretty tempted to surrender some intelligence in order to beef up my 'stab and don't get stabbed' game, but I tend to obsess on that sort of thing. 13/19/12/14/10/7 would make for one seriously spry swordbird.
Looks as good as you can do with a tengu. What are your plans for future feats, talents, and extracts?
|
|
Well, I figured the Weapon Focus to Slashing Grace, then eventually Combat Reflexes, and Power Attack.
Now, after that, I am unsure. Some different paths I have considered, are the Enforcer/Hurtful line, and also the Kirin Style Path.
Talents depend on which path I go, although Mutagen is definitely on the list, but welcome to suggestions.
Extracts will mostly stay buff focused, and I will nab Alchemical Allocation as soon as possible, as it is just awesome, if used correctly.
Thoughts?
Kirin Style would be great thematically, but sadly it kind of trips over its own swift action needs - start style, knowledge check, kirin strike - even without trying to use quick study.
Quick Draw / Dueling Mastery is costly, but an obvious thematic choice with the added benefit of allowing your tengu to spin off thrown shortspears with a studied damage bonus nice and quick.
Yeah... Cornugon Smash or Enforcer with Hurtful is just so good it's kind of tough to imagine a reason not to do it. Bruising Intellect trait to the rescue even if you don't have strength or charisma to scare with.
I go Student of Philosophy and Precise Treatment. Student of Philosophy fits very well with Empiricist. and Precise Treatment actually give a bonus on top of changing it to int.
EDIT: of course, that doesn't work if you want to boost intimidation.
Why would I need high Heal checks?
If I'm going to do the Sherlock holmes character, I'd like to know about bodies. I've always seen it used as 'roll a heal check to see how they died' or 'what injured them'. Seems perfect for a detective type character.
Well, there are Potions and Scrolls of Speak with Dead for that, I suppose.
Speak with Dead only works with creatures that have languages or those that you understand (plus it's limited to what the creature knows), so it's often not a viable option. Plus I'm a cheap bastard, hence the skill route.
I could nab Bruising Intellect/Clever Wordplay and Precise Treatment though.
Then again, I could go more John Shaft, rather than Sherlocke Holmes.
That's cool, I was just saying what I was planning to do with my Empiricist.
|
|
I would much rather go Cadfael, than Sherlocke Holmes, if I went that route.
I own all the books and TV Series, so, well, I am a bit of a fan.
I would much rather go Cadfael, than Sherlocke Holmes, if I went that route.
I own all the books and TV Series, so, well, I am a bit of a fan.
Cadfael's cool too. I've seen all the shows but I picked Holmes because he's a universally known detective.
Cadfael fits more thematically, to the setting, for the most part.
Besides, the PC would not need to do a lot of morphine and cocaine.
I hear Pesh is popular. ;)
Myself, my character is going to focus on getting inspiration on skills without spending uses. In fact, I'm going to retrain 1st level feats to get Extra Investigator Talent. I'm also thinking of being an android to help with the low fort save. (Constructed)
Ah, you did say PFS. Sorry.
The Extra (inspiration or talent) feats and ranged study off the top of my head.
If you have 3 feats for combat, picking up fencing grace isn't bad.
Fencing Grace vs Slashing Grace: You want to get an Inspired weapon and the best weapon that can get that is the rapier.
Ranged Study: even if you don't focus on ranged, it's a good idea to have options. If you get stuck at range for some reason you might as well get your full bonus to it. It also sucks if your target tries to escape on you when your strike is up.
Inspired Strike: see Inspired weapon. Spend your point on the weapon.
Surprise Maneuver: not a fan of most maneuvers. Add to that it's only on studied strike that ends your study and I'm really not a fan.
|
Ranged Investigators are really tricky due to the Feat intensive nature of ranged combat and the necessity of Ranged Study (which, due to its Weapon Focus prereq, should not be taken on melee builds...two Feats is really expensive for a backup option you'll never be great at).
Really, I'd only ever do it with a shortbow as a Human, in which case it's actually doable...though not easily. You probably don't even get Deadly Aim until 11th level, for example (1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, 3: Weapon Focus 5: Ranged Study 7: Rapid Shot, 9: Manyshot, 11: Deadly Aim).
Sticking to melee is probably your best bet. For a melee Investigator, Extra Investigator Talent is solid, as is Power Attack (just like for everyone else)...along with Weapon Finesse and Fencing Grace (and thus Weapon Focus) if going Dex-based. Great Fortitude is also not a terrible choice, given Investigators' weak Fort saves. Combat Reflexes is (as always) good for Reach builds, too. That's really all I'm thinking of off the top of my head.
Also, for the record, Tengu isn't the best race ever for Investigators. You get Swordtrained, sure, but the Inspired weapon property is both awesome, and restricted to standard Investigator weapons...leaving other races better options. Half-Elf is notable for being particularly absurd given it's Racial Favored Class ability for Investigators. If going Tengu for flavor, you should absolutely stick with it, but mechanically it's just not the best choice, all things considered.
Ranged Investigators are really tricky due to the Feat intensive nature of ranged combat and the necessity of Ranged Study (which, due to its Weapon Focus prereq, should not be taken on melee builds...two Feats is really expensive for a backup option you'll never be great at).
Well if you use a different weapon, yeah. Myself I'd take it with the rapier, saving a feat. Throwing enchant on rapier + blinkback belt works fine since the ability only works out to 30' and only uses 1 feat.
|
|
Ranged Investigators are really tricky due to the Feat intensive nature of ranged combat and the necessity of Ranged Study (which, due to its Weapon Focus prereq, should not be taken on melee builds...two Feats is really expensive for a backup option you'll never be great at).Well if you use a different weapon, yeah. Myself I'd take it with the rapier, saving a feat. Throwing enchant on rapier + blinkback belt works fine since the ability only works out to 30' and only uses 1 feat.
That's actually not something I'd considered, and a bit pricey in gold, and particularly item slots (losing out on a stat belt sucks).
It's a very solid ranged option if you're willing to make the investment, though, I'll give you that.
|
|
Melee sounds like the easier path.
If focusing on the Rapier, then there seems to be little reason to keep Swordtrained. Likely swap with another alternate racial trait.
Being Tengu is not going to change.
Let's say full melee Rapier focus: What is a good feat order/stat array?
My advice?
Stats:
Str 13 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 11 Cha 7 (So...literally what you've already got).
Grabbing Dex at 4th, and then either Dex or Int at 8th and 12th (8th and 12th being the same stat, obviously).
That gives you enough Str for Power Attack later, while giving good Dex and Int and decent Con. If willing to ditch the Str to 10 and skip Power attack, you could grab Dex 18, but that's probably not the best choice long term.
Feats:
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Weapon Focus (Rapier)
5: Fencing Grace
7: Power Attack
9: Extra Investigator Talent
That's a combat oriented array, but pretty solid, IMO, though damage is a bit low early on.
A level of Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) would grant a few advantages and let you have Fencing Grace as your 1st level Feat, freeing space up for a couple more Extra Investigator Talents (which are nice), but delay Investigator stuff a level...but very possibly still be worth it in this case.
|
|
That is an idea.
Is the Inspired Blade the best dip?
I mean, the bonus feat is nice, but I could just as easily do Fighter, Blade Adept Arcanist, or Kensai Magus.
You could, but Inspired Blade effectively gives both Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus, something none of the rest of those do (two bonus Feats for one level is pretty sweet). It also gives Opportune Parry and Riposte, which is very nice, and enough Panache to riposte when you like. More attacks are never bad, and parrying is very nice...especially once you start doing it with Mutagen and Studied Combat up.
I'm not sure I'd dip, but if you do, Inspired Blade is definitely the way to go.
What level would I take the dip?
1st is technically best, but that'll delay all investigator stuff (which seems to be the point) a full level right from the get-go.
Personally, I'd take it at 3rd, when you already have Int to bunches of skills and some other Investigator stuff. With retraining Weapon Finesse, that'll give you Fencing Grace and Power Attack both at 3rd, which'll be a heck of a damage upgrade.