I'm looking into character concepts that either use trip or intimidate frequently, and I'm wondering which ones you guys think is best based on feat costs, and how regular it is to encounter enemies vulnerable to such tactics.
Trip can be performed in place of any regular melee attack.
However, intimidate can be used to demoralize in combination with feats like dazzling display and cornugon smash.
Many enemies can become immune to trip by being too big or not walking. But more things are vulnerable to fear affects like demoralize (IMO).
I know that there are size penalties to intimidate if you're smaller than your opponent, do the penalties become too great to overcome like tripping does?
I'll second Intimidate build but beware size is a factor there as well (-4 to intimidate per size category bigger than you.)
AS far as I understand it's only a flat +/- 4 for being bigger or smaller, it does not depend on each size category of difference for intimidate/demoralize.
Where as with CMD each size category nets the creature a different bonus. Now, at medium versus a huge that's only a +2 difference inherent from size. But you can't actually even attempt to trip a huge creature because you're only medium. And that's the real issue.
Besides, if you have spell casters that love to cast save or suck spell the -2 to saves you can cause will got a long ways to debuffing the enemy more than a single trip will. In my opinion trip is better defensively to control where the enemy will move. Intimidate is better offensively.
And in Pathfinder, offense typically wins out over defense.
I'll second Intimidate build but beware size is a factor there as well (-4 to intimidate per size category bigger than you.)
I don't think that's correct. The wording in the intimidate skill makes it seem like a flat +/- 4, not scaling based on size difference.
@Claxon good correction it is indeed a flat +/-
Looks like I'm going for an intimidate build, and just pack other countermeasures for mindless creatures. Thanks guys.
Again for intimidate. Excellent debuff, and if you've got friends with more fear effects you can cause some serious chaos.
Your caster will love you for imposing a -2 on most enemy saves, too. Try and leverage this into getting them to craft you a + intimidate item or two.
If you truly want, you could use an antipaladin. At their third level, you can demoralize EVERYTHING in a 10 foot radius. Even mindless and creatures with fear immunity.
Rogues with the Thug archetype is pretty good for an intimidate build.
Enforcer + Hurtful or Power Attack + Cornugon Smash + Hurtful might be useful for you.
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Instead of Cornugon Smash, you can always just go Blade of Mercy / Enforcer. There isn't all that much immune to nonlethal attacks which isn't immune to morale abilities anyway. (Undead who aren't mindless is the only thing I can think of off the top of my head, though I'm pretty sure there's more.)
Also - try to get any rogue/ninja in the party to eventually grab Shatter Defenses for some awesome double-team.
Where is the Fauchard found?
If you're willing to damn your soul to hell for this build, the Soulless Gaze feat chain (from Champions of Corruption) is fantastic for this. It lets you stack demoralizes, so a creature you've already shakened becomes frightened if you intimidate them a second time. You need to take Soulless Gaze twice for the effect, but damn is it worth it.
A friend of mine plays an intimidate Thug rogue/fighter that covers a lot of what you're looking for. Not 100% on build specifics beyond using the Thug archetype and a pile of Intimidate-focused feats. Pretty sure there's Dazzling Display, Skill Focus, and Intimidating Prowess in the mix.
If you're willing to damn your soul to hell for this build, the Soulless Gaze feat chain (from Champions of Corruption) is fantastic for this. It lets you stack demoralizes, so a creature you've already shakened becomes frightened if you intimidate them a second time. You need to take Soulless Gaze twice for the effect, but damn is it worth it.
That's not how damnation feats work. You take Soulless Gaze once, and then you take some other damnation feat, and then they are both made better by the fact that you now have two damnation feats.
It is pretty hard to fail for intimidate checks to demoralize as the DC is only 10 + level of monster + wisdom modifier, which do not increase faster than you can specialize in. And 'most' creatures you fight do not have inflated Wisdom compared to Str or Dex.
Already at level 9 games, I am seeing creatures with CMD of 40 without buff, which means only rolling a 20 is it possible to ever trip them.
In conclusion, intimdate is easy to afflict but the condition is not as severe as tripping unless you manage to increase the condition to frightened.
Trip only causes the prone condition.
Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Prone causes a reduction in AC and melee attacks. This is actually worse than demoralizing someone because while it may only be a -2, it applies to attack rolls, skills, and saves. With saves being the big one.
Order of the Cockatrice gives Dazzling display at class level 2.
Thug rogue 1 / cavalier (gendarme, honor guard) or samurai (sword saint) x
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Trip only causes the prone condition.
Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.Prone causes a reduction in AC and melee attacks. This is actually worse than demoralizing someone because while it may only be a -2, it applies to attack rolls, skills, and saves. With saves being the big one.
While I like intimidation builds (playing one currently - though in my case it's a secondary build factor) - you're forgetting perhaps the two most important things about prone.
1. Movement is a crawl. (literally :P)
2. If they stand up - they provoke AOOs.
And that doesn't include that once you have greater trip, tripping them in the first place provokes an AOO.
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Tripping with reach weapons is fun. If your opponent can't reach you, then their melee capabilities don't matter. You don't provoke if they don't threaten your square even if you lack the feats. My bloodrager loves the Bladelash spell. +10 to trip at 20 feet. At 6th level with no serious investment she has +23 to trip before any buffs. She's PFS and she mostly uses it against enemy casters because surrounding a prone spellcaster and playing whack-a-mole is fun.
Something else to keep in mind - there are a ton of additional 'Display' style feats that can be stacked on top of Dazzling Display for combined effects... I've seen some pretty impressive builds that use them.
While I like intimidation builds (playing one currently - though in my case it's a secondary build factor) - you're forgetting perhaps the two most important things about prone.1. Movement is a crawl. (literally :P)
2. If they stand up - they provoke AOOs.
And that doesn't include that once you have greater trip, tripping them in the first place provokes an AOO.
Those things only help if the character is a melee character. If it's a spellcaster they don't really give a damn about being unable to move.
And while this works quite well with a reach weapon, they can attack with a full attack, without moving though they will take some penalty to do so.
Couple that with the fact that many creatures become outright impossible to trip between flying, multiple legs, size...
I think intimidate builds are simply more effective overall for the party. Intimidate is more offensive, trip is more defensive.
You could be a bard with a whip to do both tripping and intimidate.
Having access to True Strike is nearly always a successful trip and you can dazzling display when you're out of true strikes because you have high CHA.
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While I like intimidation builds (playing one currently - though in my case it's a secondary build factor) - you're forgetting perhaps the two most important things about prone.1. Movement is a crawl. (literally :P)
2. If they stand up - they provoke AOOs.
And that doesn't include that once you have greater trip, tripping them in the first place provokes an AOO.
Those things only help if the character is a melee character. If it's a spellcaster they don't really give a damn about being unable to move.
And while this works quite well with a reach weapon, they can attack with a full attack, without moving though they will take some penalty to do so.
Couple that with the fact that many creatures become outright impossible to trip between flying, multiple legs, size...
I think intimidate builds are simply more effective overall for the party. Intimidate is more offensive, trip is more defensive.
I'm with you - especially at really high levels the intimidate build simply works on more stuff.
I just think that the OP should hear all of the pros/cons.
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It is pretty hard to fail for intimidate checks to demoralize as the DC is only 10 + level of monster + wisdom modifier, which do not increase faster than you can specialize in. And 'most' creatures you fight do not have inflated Wisdom compared to Str or Dex.
Already at level 9 games, I am seeing creatures with CMD of 40 without buff, which means only rolling a 20 is it possible to ever trip them.
In conclusion, intimdate is easy to afflict but the condition is not as severe as tripping unless you manage to increase the condition to frightened.
At level 9 my trip specialist will be looking at a +30 to CMB for purpose of trip attacks before items and spells.
Going with items I'll be getting another +3 from my +1 dueling weapon (+1 enhancement, +2 luck), +2 from Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver, +2 competence from the Brown Thorny Ioun stone, +2 insight from the resonance power of the Dusty Rose Prism Ioun stone for a total of +39 to CMB for trip, which means I'm fine as long as I don't roll a 1 or encounter creatures of size huge or bigger (though with a potion of enlarge person I could trip them as well).
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At level 9 my trip specialist will be looking at a +30 to CMB for purpose of trip attacks before items and spells.
CR 9 creatures in the bestiary:
air elemental (greater): Flyingblue dragon (young): Flying
bone devil: Flying
bronze dragon (young): Flying
dire crocodile: CMD 40
dire shark: swimming
dragon turtle: Swimming
earth elemental (greater): earth glide
fire elemental (greater) CMD 41
frost giant: CMD 29
giant squid: swimming
marid: CMD 34, swimming
mastodon: CMD 39
nessian warhound CMD 37
night hag: CMD 27
roc: Flying
spirit naga: Immune to trip
tyrannosaurus: CMD 39
vampire: CMD 24
vrock: Flying
water elemental (greater): CMD 40, Swimming
Of those creatures, fully half are immune to tripping from flying, swimming, or not having legs.
You'll be able to trip a lot at that level, but the CMD doesn't matter if they can't be tripped.
Rogues with the Thug archetype is pretty good for an intimidate build.
IIRC the Swashbuckler class has some built-in mechanics for intimidate.
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At level 9 my trip specialist will be looking at a +30 to CMB for purpose of trip attacks before items and spells.
*list of monsters*
Of those creatures, fully half are immune to tripping from flying, swimming, or not having legs.
You'll be able to trip a lot at that level, but the CMD doesn't matter if they can't be tripped.
A lot of it depends on your GM and how much they use monsters vs how much they use NPCs.
Either is monster dependent, I have a personal preference for trip though. It requires greater dedication than Intimidate, but the payoff is far greater in terms of battlefield control.
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At level 9 my trip specialist will be looking at a +30 to CMB for purpose of trip attacks before items and spells.
CR 9 creatures in the bestiary:
air elemental (greater): Flying
blue dragon (young): Flying
bone devil: Flying
bronze dragon (young): Flying
.....You'll be able to trip a lot at that level, but the CMD doesn't matter if they can't be tripped.
If you fight lots of flyers...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/dr agoncatch-guisarmeworks wonders.
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At level 9 my trip specialist will be looking at a +30 to CMB for purpose of trip attacks before items and spells.
CR 9 creatures in the bestiary:
air elemental (greater): Flying
blue dragon (young): Flying
bone devil: Flying
bronze dragon (young): Flying
.....You'll be able to trip a lot at that level, but the CMD doesn't matter if they can't be tripped.
If you fight lots of flyers...
dragoncatch guisarme
works wonders.
Fixed link. Thanks, I wasn't aware of that item, that does make tripping better.
The dragon catch guisarme assume the enemy will ever get close enough while flying for you to use it.
I mean, my flying archer character makes a habit of getting near melee combatants all the time. I never target flying enemies first specifically because they pose a threat to me. NPCs never use tactics, am I right?
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The dragon catch guisarme assume the enemy will ever get close enough while flying for you to use it.
Any melee weapon won't function against a target that stays far away.
But for any target with flying that does melee attacks, it works well.
Worse case; enlarge and ready action.
But to the OP, adding intimate to a trip build isn't that hard via cornugan smash. - Hellknight works well.
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At level 9 my trip specialist will be looking at a +30 to CMB for purpose of trip attacks before items and spells.
CR 9 creatures in the bestiary:
air elemental (greater): Flying
blue dragon (young): Flying
bone devil: Flying
bronze dragon (young): Flying
.....You'll be able to trip a lot at that level, but the CMD doesn't matter if they can't be tripped.
If you fight lots of flyers...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/dr agoncatch-guisarme
works wonders.
That would be really mean for mid-air combats taking place a few hundred feet in the air. At least so long as they don't have feather fall.
If you'll willing to invest some feats you can "have it all" by tripping AND intimidating. I've got PC with Fighter and Monk levels who has Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Vicious Stomp, and Enforcer. Any time he successfully trips an opponent he gets to stomp on them for nonlethal damage and make a free Intimidate check due to Enforcer. This almost always results in the opponent being demoralized for the rest of the fight (if they're not knocked out by the stomp, the other AoO from my PC, and 1-2 more AoOs from the rest of the party)
At least in our campaign there seem to be a LOT of creatures which can't be tripped, and I suspect that the number of flying foes will only grow as we reach higher levels and the DM tires of my PC's antics. That said, when tripping does work it is absolutely devastating. Luckily even when I can't trip throwing in an unarmed strike to demoralize a foe is often helpful.
If you're using Intimidate also be sure to check out the Cruel weapon property, which makes shaken foes sickened when you hit them. This better than doubles the debuff effect of Intimidate and really opens foes up to abuse by effects which require a saving throw. If you partner with a Witch who has Evil Eye you can achieve absolutely hilarious levels of debuff. I highly recommend it.
I hadn't seen the dragoncatch guisarme before. It might make a nice backup weapon. If only the same enchantment were available for a heavy flail my PC would be ecstatic. Would a creature falling to the ground as a result of being tripped with the dragoncatch guisarme take falling damage? (I was thinking of tripping them while we're both flying)
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If Trip doesn't work, there are other methods of forcing them Prone. Punishing kick is one of my other favorites, though usually with only a 30% overall success rate between landing the attack, and them failing their Fort save against it.
My favorite thing in the game, is giving them a -4 to melee and +4 to my melee attacks via Trip/Prone. I'll never give it up.
I'm looking into character concepts that either use trip or intimidate frequently, and I'm wondering which ones you guys think is best based on feat costs, and how regular it is to encounter enemies vulnerable to such tactics.
Three levels of Thug (Rogue archetype) allows you to either up the Intimidate ante to the Frightened condition or to layer on Sickened along with Shaken... there will never be a time when inflicting -4 saves on an opponent isn't a good thing.
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Where is the Fauchard found?Classic Horrors Revisisted p8
I love the Fauchard, but I'm not willing to buy that book just to get it for PFS. Sigh. I can justify some of the other purchases I've made for spells and such by the great background material offered. I have no interest in horror. Is there anything else in that book worth looking at other than the fauchard?
Hmm
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The only disadvantage for the Dragoncatch Guisarme for me is that I can't put the dueling enhancement on it, nor can I increase the static bonus (PFS rules)
However it makes for a great secondary weapon to carry, so putting it on my wishlist :D
Edit:
Where is the Fauchard found?Classic Horrors Revisisted p8I love the Fauchard, but I'm not willing to buy that book just to get it for PFS. Sigh. I can justify some of the other purchases I've made for spells and such by the great background material offered. I have no interest in horror. Is there anything else in that book worth looking at other than the fauchard?
Hmm
Not really for players. It's mostly monster lore and page 8 has 4 weapons.
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Where is the Fauchard found?Classic Horrors Revisisted p8I love the Fauchard, but I'm not willing to buy that book just to get it for PFS. Sigh. I can justify some of the other purchases I've made for spells and such by the great background material offered. I have no interest in horror. Is there anything else in that book worth looking at other than the fauchard?
Hmm
I found my answer to that in it's Additinal resources entry:
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Classic Horrors Revisited
Equipment: aklys, crystal chakram, fauchard, injection spear
For me, the fauchard and injection spear are the only things mildly tempting, and it's no worth it.
Leveraging Intimidate to use Hurtful is extremely powerful. Whatever the merits of Intimidate alone, getting an extra attack from a swift action on a charge in particular is not only really good by itself, but it allows things like Cruel weapon or Shatter Defenses to be applied right away. With ways to intimidate off of 4 of the 6 ability scores, it's a nice new option for those classes that aren't already using swift actions all over the place.
You could be a bard with a whip to do both tripping and intimidate.
Having access to True Strike is nearly always a successful trip and you can dazzling display when you're out of true strikes because you have high CHA
Half-Orc's with the city raised alternate trait get whip proficiency, so building a Battle Mystery Oracle or Stone Mystery Oracle (keep reading stone stability, it gives you improved trip and greater trip for free) can get you pretty potent trips with a whip. And since Half-Orcs get an intimidate bonus and Oracles want high CHA you can take Dazzling Display for AoE intimidates.
I'd say this though. There are a bunch of enemies that are immune to trip, and a bunch of enemies that are immune to mind-affecting effects (like intimidate), so you want your character to have something else to do when fighting hordes of undead, swarms, elementals, etc. Being a bard, or full-casting oracle can mean you get to play a powerful support role and then you do your tripping and intimidating in between casting and buffing. Don't overcommit to either intimidate or trip because there will be scenarios where they just won't work.