Zwordsman wrote: well i 'm writing this while i'm on th epage before still reading but I'm pretty sure I'll forget it otherwise before I catch up.
Some people have been saying Burn giving ability to bypass DR would be cool. and somepeople seem to have been wanting some way to bypass resistance.
Of the two, I feel like burn helping bypass resistances makes more sense. Since your body is building up with more energy than your adapted to and as a result your abilitie sare strengthened. Blasting through resistance because your body is burnt seems cool..
I don't know what an aetherist would get though
We honestly kind of need both. I think people are jumping on the DR more because there are two elements (Aether and Earth) locked into the non-elemental blasts, and as such are fighting uphill against both AC and DR. And while Earth can counter the DR with Rare Metals, the cost is prohibitive-- you're looking at 2 burn minimum every time unless you're level 15 for Composite Specialization.
However, as many have noticed with Fire-- Immunity screws you. You might only hit on a 20 and only do 5 damage against a high-AC high-DR opponent when using Earth... but if the other guy is immune to fire, your best bet is to run the hell away as fast as you can (or not be a specialist, which is honestly the 'correct' answer, but for reasons good and bad people don't want to hear that).
My hope is for a Glove or Bracer that acts as an Amulet of Mighty Fists for Kinetic Blasts (solving DR problems as well as making blasting much more interesting), clarification of Kinetic Blade + Conductive melee weapons (basically, does it work or not), and an ability similar to that of the Winter Witch to counter elemental resistance-- not negate it, but reduce its potency.
Zwordsman wrote: Two questiosn
also i read earlier in this thread something about
1 infusion 1 form per blast? I can't seem to actually find that anywhere inthe pdf though. So is that accurate? or can you put in as much as you like as long as yo ucan handle the burn ratio?
second question.
The specializatio nthat reduces form/infusion burns. I'm not quite sure is that "reduce the selected (form or inufsion type) burn from the total score per blast used" i.e if i put on a few things does it reduce from the total cost only. or does it reduce each application? (assuming you can apply more than just 1 infusion 1 form)
1 infusion/1 form is the last sentence of Kinetic Blast before the Wild Talent entry. "You can use any of the blast wild talents you know in conjunction with no more than one associated form infusion and no more than one associated substance infusion at a time."
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CWheezy wrote: Mark Seifter wrote:
I will say that Eram the hydrokineticist, who has over 100 hours of playtest in Skull and Shackles and has so far been a major badass, uses the current playtest build of kineticist.
When you playtest, are you actually playtesting or are you playing happy fun story time?
If I had 100 hours I could probably complete half (maybe more) of the combat encounters in skull and shackles, and you say eram is level 5? Playing the campaign, with all its ups and downs, roleplaying moments, and sandboxy nature (including add-on adventures and slow XP advancement). A full and thorough playtest. It's important to me to see how the tempo of the campaign ebbs and flows in a standard game. If a character doesn't get to contribute in certain situations, that's telling, and it's easy to miss that in an endless coliseum of battles. As a side note, the playtest also has a medium.
Insain Dragoon wrote: Morzadian wrote: I think what is missing from the Kineticist class is class abilities that can strongly affect narrative.
Elements and their relationship with narration:
A Pyrokineticist who uses fire to uncover the truth in things (e.g Zone of Truth spell).
A Aerokineticist who uses air to view places that are far away (e.g a lesser version of the Scry spell.)
Burn class ability and hurting yourself in the name of correcting injustices of the world.
Even though high DPR is empowering for many players (myself included), it's sometimes less empowering for others.
Roleplaying games have the power to act as a form of catharsis, you may not be able to correct the injustices in the real world, but you get the opportunity to do it in a fantasy world.
And voluntarily personal harm to combat the cunning nature of evil (finding the illusive trail of a serial killer) is epic and could be more empowering than a high DPR.
From my personal experience, for many players (especially female players, a common sight at my gaming table) "empowerment through influencing narrative" is an important factor in class selection.
This is some good stuff right here! It helps tie the Kineticist in closer with the Occult themes of the book, gives them more narrative power than "I can go here because of *Movement type*" For the most part, these sugggestions come across to me is let me take Burn in exchange for shortcutting and avoiding the work of a roleplaying adventure.
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I was going to ask how the hydrokineticist is manipulating water in non-blasty situations before 6th level, but then I saw the description for Manipulate Water indicates all hydrokineticists can do that at low quantities, with or without the talent. Why isn't this written into the other "Move Element" talents? As written geokineticists can only manipulate earth as an attack before 6th level. I'd also like specific rules on how much of your element you can manipulate without the talent.
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I expect that feats, archetypes and items will help with some of the abilities, but I still see some issues. Mark, I hope you playtest some higher level builds, and other elements to see their limitation.
If you aren't going to give both types of blasts to each element, they should have a way to boost their blast to overcome the accuracy and resistance issues. This trades burn (or a move action) for the limits of the original blast.
Defenses - There's definitely a big difference between the classes. Water and Aether apply universally, Earth is broadly applicable, but Air and Fire are extremely situational. If you are going to have them be so situational, perhaps making them better would balance them.
There should be some resistance to their chosen element built into the class. For aether I'd go with sonic or force resistance. I could also see a general resistance to environmental effects.
The issue with burn is that the costs scale with your level. Proportionately you can use the same amount of burn at level and and level 20. Since enemy damage scales as well, you don't want to drop it too low. I suggest burn be 1/2 level+1. While it still increases, you'll be able to burn progressively more as you level up. I realize that you have more ways to deal with burn, but you are progressing linearly in the amount of pushing you can do, when spellcasters progress exponentially.
If burn isn't changed, going to d10 or d12 hit dice would mitigate it. If it's half level, then d8's are still appropriate.
Perhaps pentrating your level in resistance for 1 burn? This would scale well without making it useless. Immunity could be treated as 20 resistance for this purpose.
I'd like to see some cantrip-level effect added as a baseline. Not enough to affect gameplay, but enough to give it a feel for the element.
An infusion for to add the properties of the weapon to Kinetic Blade would be cool. Enhancement, critical, material, etc.
Aether, air and water should have an option to do nonlethal damage.
Telekinetics can't gather energy to offset Kinetic Blade because they need both hands free. This makes it hard to use before level 5.
Arachnofiend wrote: I was going to ask how the hydrokineticist is manipulating water in non-blasty situations before 6th level, but then I saw the description for Manipulate Water indicates all hydrokineticists can do that at low quantities, with or without the talent. Why isn't this written into the other "Move Element" talents? As written geokineticists can only manipulate earth as an attack before 6th level. I'd also like specific rules on how much of your element you can manipulate without the talent. Specific rules on that would be most welcome indeed. A big part of the fun in playing such a class is having control of the element. Moving it, shaping, using it to move other stuff, heating/freezing it, with increasingly massive amounts of matter.
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Mark Seifter wrote: I would absolutely love to see level 7-10 playtests. But in those playtests especially, if you build the kineticist to not have access to both a touch blast and a full-AC blast, that's a design choice, and you could have chosen otherwise. This is ivory tower game design and really not acceptable. Fire/Fire and Earth/Earth builds need to be functional at all levels and they really aren't. Fire/Fire especially since elemental resistance tends to be higher than DR and elemental immunity has no counterpart for non-energy damage. I would suggest making blue flame at least half untyped like flamestrike.
Mark Seifter wrote: Insain Dragoon wrote: That's actually very reassuring to hear Mark. Honestly if I buy this book on release it's probably going to be due to the pleasant way you've been handling the playtesters.
Thank you for not just responding to that concern, but going beyond the call of duty in an effort to give us two enjoyable classes!
It's very easy to make a small nudge and break the kineticist (as is evident by what happened when the word "blast" got removed in edit) with a variant ability or feat. For instance, the burn ability took me a long time to balance to avoid a lot of the concerns in this thread, which I had shared, and it lives on what I consider a razor cusp of working amazingly to the point that even something like "Signature Wild Talent: Now one wild talent costs 1 less burn, minimum 0" could make it teeter. So what happens when a less than perfect optimizer gets his hands on it? It would be better to find a mechanic that doesn't teeter on the cusp between broken-nonfunctional and broken-gamebreaking.
Burn as it currently stands is almost con damage. It effects what is for everyone but kineticists and scarred witch doctors the primary effect of con as if it were con damage and is actually harder to recover from. In fact it would probably be less bad if it actually were con damage even with that as the casting stat since then 1d4 points could be cleared with a second level cleric wand making it effectively something incurred per encounter. That's a pretty bad cost.
The primary merit of HP costs is that they make the limits effectively per encounter and per encounter abilities are inherently the most easily balanced because CR is determined on a per encounter basis. Making burn unhealable turns this advantage into a liability and puts the kineticist in about the worst place possible for balance. Only making burn unhealable stat damage or negative levels would be worse. That in turn leads to your razor's edge balance of burn reduction.
If you can use Ride The Blast to target a square or an object an Aerokineticist gets at will teleportation to line of sight within almost a quarter of a mile. Couple that with a fly speed and high miss chance against ranged attacks, and you are the king of mobility. Use Expanded Element to taste. Earth for Earth Glide and Move Earth (quite possibly the best power for a creative player), Water for Swim Speed and a constant shield bonus, Aether for general telekinesis (if you can't come up with a use for telekinesis...why are you here?), fire for...no clue really (It just seems to do damage and some niche things that aren't as useful unless the situation calls for it) Sure, your DPR lags behind the archer, but regardless of element your mobility is absurd, and constant.
If I had any complaints they would be more or less the same as the ones I've seen on the thread: up the BAB, up the skills. Add more access to general utility.
Mark Seifter wrote:
I will say that Eram the hydrokineticist, who has over 100 hours of playtest in Skull and Shackles and has so far been a major badass, uses the current playtest build of kineticist.
I feel like there is kind of a disconnect going on here, because where people are complaining about the viability of the kineticist, they are talking about higher than level 5. How many of these testing hours have been spent on say, level 10, 15, 20?
Arashi, the Stormbringer
Human
Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 18
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
1: Hydrokineticist (Cold Blast), Slick, Spell Penetration, Toughness
No Precise Shot? No Precise Shot. It’s not worth the feat tax, frankly. Instead I’m taking Toughness out of the gate—I like not dying—and Spell Penetration as an early buy because my early feat levels are stacked. Instead, if allies are pushing into melee Arashi will fall back on his Slick talent.
Stats are enough for decent Dex, excellent Con, and Arashi was always a jerk so screw Cha for +1 on the Will save. Though +1 skill point is tempting.
2: Wild Talent: Extended Range
3: Weapon Finesse
Neither one of these should be particularly shocking anybody.
4: Kinetic Blade, +1 Dex
5: Infusion Specialist: Form, Improved Initiative
And now we can stab things. Going faster with Improved Initiative is one of those generically-useful things, but it's especially nice since we want to start shooting before our friends start stabbing.
6: Kinetic Whip
7: Extended Element: Aerokineticist (Electric Blast), Combat Reflexes
So no Composite Blast here. Which is interesting—the Touch-blasts get really hosed on Composites. I assume that’s a feature and not a bug, but still interesting. The Aerokineticist was chosen largely for flavor reasons—the original Arashi’s primary combat tactic was to summon a thunderstorm and uses it to beat your face in. However, being honest… it’s looking like the best two-element combination. Electricity/Cold, as a combination, is relatively rare as a dual-immunity/dual-high-resistance (mostly belonging to Good Outsiders, a relatively rare opponent). Water has good stuff clean though, but Air has, I think, the single most powerful ability for a Kineticist with its Kinetic Form. Combat Reflexes is mostly setup at this point, honestly.
8: Infusion Specialist: Form, Extreme Range, +1 Dex
9: Greater Spell Penetration
Snipe or spam Kinetic Whip, either one is a winner. With Kinetic Whip freely available Combat Reflexes becomes muuuuch more viable. Greater Spell Penetration is the Touch spells' version of Weapon Focus.
10: Kinetic Form
11: Infusion Specialization: Substance, Iron Will
This is when the build gets interesting. At the start of every day, Arashi is going to take a lot of damage. Two Burn will be used to activate Kinetic Form as a Medium Air Elemental. 60ft of perfect flight, 60ft of darkvision, +4 Dex, +3 Natural Armor. He’ll probably also eat a point of burn to bring his Armor Bonus from Shroud of Water up to +5.
For some environments, he can instead take the Water Elemental, basically trading in Flight and a +2 to-hit/+2 initiative for breathing water, +2 damage, and more HP. If Flight isn’t useful, that’s Plan B. Either way, he’s beginning the day with his Feel the Burn maxed out.
Fun fact on the Infusion Specialization: No Form Infusion the Air/Water combination can take will have a Burn higher than 2. Substance is the only option despite not /having/ any Substance blasts. Yet.
12: Ride the Blast, +1 Con
13: Improved Iron Will
Teleport-fu with all the range Arashi needs, he can be in melee against whatever opponent needs meleeing from the first turn. An extra point on Feel the Burn means he’ll probably drop another point of Burn to keep his Shroud of Water at +6. Iron Will is for not murdering the party.
14: Infusion Specialization: Substance, Chilling Infusion
15: Shimmering Mirage, feat
Chilling Infusion can be free with a move action, otherwise it costs one burn. In return, Fort-or-be-staggered. Shimmering Mirage means that Feel the Burn can be kept maxed out and we get constant-Blur.
16: Greater Kinetic Form, +1 Con
17: Infusion Specialization: Substance, feat
Every Cold attack now gets Chilling Infusion. Greater Elemental Form still gives Arashi an excellent dichotomy to choose from. Air is +6 Dex, +4 Natural Armor, and Fly 120ft. Water trades in the Dex (it’s -2, which kind of sucks) for +8 Con and +6 Natural Armor and a Swim speed. Both are granting DR and fun immunities. Air is preferred for more AC and flight, but if he needs to survive lots of burn for a nova attack towards the end of the day, +8 Con goes a loooong way.
18: Weather Master
19: Metakinetic Master: Empower, feat
20: Chain Lightning, +1 Con
Chain Lightning is literally because-I-can. Weather Master is a thematic thing for the character, but I imagine it could be useful. Probably. Empower is my go-to on Metakinetic Master because that makes it a constant flat 50% damage boost.
I’m still debating some aspects of the build. The last three feats are the biggest ones, and some feats entirely (Iron Will/Improved Iron Will mostly). I’m tempted to snag Expanded Element again at some point for a couple Composite Blasts (Air or Water; they're functionally identical in that both give Piercing+Cold and Bludgeoning+Electricity).
If someone wants DPR calculations I can work them out, just pick the level you want me to check at and targets to shoot at.
Kestral, how are you qualifying for the Arcane Strike feat?
Per Mark, the Kineticists SLAs do NOT count as qualifiers for Arcane Strike as they are Psychic, not Arcane.
That REALLY needs to be a sticky, IMO.
Fomsie wrote: Kestral, how are you qualifying for the Arcane Strike feat?
Per Mark, the Kineticists SLAs do NOT count as qualifiers for Arcane Strike as they are Psychic, not Arcane.
That REALLY needs to be a sticky, IMO.
... Ah. I'd missed that statement.
Well, that opens up a fair few feat slots
Mark Seifter wrote: Rory wrote: Fomsie wrote: Where is the Arcane Strike qualification coming from? I believe earlier today Mark replied to a question stating that the Kineticist SLAs do NOT qualify you for Arcane Strike. That would cut a piece out of the damage totals. I took Arcane Strike out of the comparison. If Mark said it doesn't count, then hey... I'm not sure why the spell-like abilities don't count. That's beyond my pay grade! :-)
I also fixed Feel the Burn to be +2/+2 at 6th instead of the +1/+1 carryover from levels 3 to 5. Thanks! It doesn't count as a prereq because it isn't arcane, it's psychic. Gnomes become the optimal choice for Kineticists.
- Size bonuses to to-hit & AC
- No size penalties to SLAs
- Strength score not used for anything other than encumbrance
- +2 CON
- Qualifies for Arcane Strike without jumping through hoops.
Artanthos wrote: Mark Seifter wrote: Rory wrote: Fomsie wrote: Where is the Arcane Strike qualification coming from? I believe earlier today Mark replied to a question stating that the Kineticist SLAs do NOT qualify you for Arcane Strike. That would cut a piece out of the damage totals. I took Arcane Strike out of the comparison. If Mark said it doesn't count, then hey... I'm not sure why the spell-like abilities don't count. That's beyond my pay grade! :-)
I also fixed Feel the Burn to be +2/+2 at 6th instead of the +1/+1 carryover from levels 3 to 5. Thanks! It doesn't count as a prereq because it isn't arcane, it's psychic. Gnomes become the optimal choice for Kineticists. Tieflings or Aasimar? Admittedly Aasimar need a variant heritage to work while Tieflings only like it, but hey.
Humans are still likely to be common for people wanting Precise Shot though.
mhm for now its going to be human or your going to miss alot lol, hopefully we can get that built into the class lol
I might have missed it but the entangle infusion doesn't seem to have the requirements on it. What might those be?
The first post of this playtest says you must be at least level 6.
Raphael Valen wrote: mhm for now its going to be human or your going to miss alot lol, hopefully we can get that built into the class lol Eh. Touch-blasters are seeming like they can do without if they can make it past the first few levels, after that it bites into their accuracy a bit but far from cripplingly so. If I took it for a Touch-blaster I'd certainly wind up trading it out later.
Third Mind wrote: I might have missed it but the entangle infusion doesn't seem to have the requirements on it. What might those be? 6th level; check the Hydrokineticist Wild Talents list.
Raphael Valen wrote: mhm for now its going to be human or your going to miss alot lol, hopefully we can get that built into the class lol I'm not sure you 100% need precise shot... The switch hitter style with Kinetic Blade seems really attractive. I heavily support the oft-given "combat style" bonus feats where you can get Precise Shot or Weapon Finesse for free, though.
technarken wrote: If you can use Ride The Blast to target a square or an object an Aerokineticist gets at will teleportation to line of sight within almost a quarter of a mile.
You really can't target a 5 foot square from a quarter of a mile away. Not going to happen.
All my players are very excited about this class, and having now fooled around with it a bit here are my thoughts:
1. The class plays a lot like an archer but without many of the options that normal bow and crossbow wielders have available.
2. All of the class's damage is concentrated into one hit (excepting the very costly quicken/double), which makes it feel a little bit binary at higher levels.
3. Iterative attacks are kind of where it seems to fall apart in terms of damage. Kinetic Blade/Whip are respectably powerful, but none of the other forms can benefit from the multiplying power of iteratives; a level 11 fighter can get +18 damage from Deadly Aim before Rapid Shot, while a Kineticist of the same level would get only +6 even if they had a full BAB progression (which they don't). 12 damage doesn't seem like a ton, but that's about average for 3d6 -- and the disparity just grows as you add levels.
4. Another comparison to Fighter: the Fighter gets feats as a class feature -- almost as many as the Kineticist gets Wild Talents. The fighter's feats can increase damage, though, while the Kineticist currently seems mostly limited to very specific utility.
5. The class's maximum power level without Kinetic Blade is about 100 damage/turn with little-to-no drawback, and an extra ~200 a couple times per day. Adding Kinetic Blade boosts the base damage per turn by 200, which makes it seem a little mandatory.
LazarX wrote: technarken wrote: If you can use Ride The Blast to target a square or an object an Aerokineticist gets at will teleportation to line of sight within almost a quarter of a mile.
You really can't target a 5 foot square from a quarter of a mile away. Not going to happen. Target a tree. Or a rock. Or a wall.
LazarX wrote: technarken wrote: If you can use Ride The Blast to target a square or an object an Aerokineticist gets at will teleportation to line of sight within almost a quarter of a mile.
You really can't target a 5 foot square from a quarter of a mile away. Not going to happen. Why? A 5 foot square has a lower AC than anything that might be standing in it. On what grounds is it impossible to target when creatures are?
With regard to the Water type Wild Talent: Slick. When it says it can use the slick for any of the effects of Grease, what is the area of the slick? Is it a 5 foot area, or is it a 10 foot area like Grease?
Also, what is it's range? It's not a "Blast" Wild Talent so I don't see that it's tied to a blast range or extended range.
Ssalarn wrote: Heladriell wrote: There are some class examples to balance the kineticist:
The Ranger:
Combat: Full BAB, access to good all day ranged damage, that can be improved later by limited abilities (spells). Reliable in close combat and has circumstantial bonus (favored enemy).
Utility:Has lots of utility power (wild empathy, nature bond, 6 skills with wide selection, favored terrain, woodland stride, spells, etc...)
Defense: d10 HD, medium armor and shields, minor healing magic, minor protective magic, evasion and improved evasion.
The Summoner:
Combat: medium BAB, access to good all day ranged damage (the eidolon), that can be improved by limited abilities (spells). Reliable in close combat (eidolon).
Utility:Has lots of utility power (evolutions, high Cha, summoning, spells that can transport anywhere, etc...)
Defense: d8 HD, light armor, medium healing magic, good protective magic, double HP pool.
Both classes fill similar niches, providing ranged damage reliably while having flavorful features. While they can do their job all day, they can burn up /day resources to excel. Those resources, however do not reduce their power after used, so they can keep doing their regular job afterwards.
I can understand being cautious from a design point of view around a class that has many "at will" abilities, but regarding combat balance, most of the time anything past 5 encounters/ day won't matter much. So, I would suggest to give the class some new toys, no need to fear a bit more of power.
Considering that they're putting out a new version of the Summoner in Pathfinder Unchained that was written specifically because the original Summoner is considered overpowered, I wouldn't expect that as a balance point.
However, the Ninja, Inquisitor, Ranger, Zen Archer, Paladin, Samurai, Gunslinger, Slayer, Hunter, and Bard all make excellent points of comparison. Pretty much all of those classes can easily match or even substantially exceed... Good point about the Summoner.
And Pathfinder Unchained has a release date before Occult Adventures.
Combat Utility and Out-of-Combat Utility:
On the topic of utlility, as most people know, there is a significant difference between combat utility and out-of-combat utility.
A Ranger's Woodland Stride is a combat utility, similar to the Kineticist's Flame Jet. It's the Ranger's spells that provides out-of-combat utility.
Kineticist Blast Comparison:
And the Kineticist's blast behave in a way, which makes direct comparison (range, DPR) incorrect analysis.
A Monk can't deflect a Kineticist's Blast (Deflect Arrows), neither can a Fighter (Missile Shield).
I think the blasts trade slight power for greater versatility. The Kineticist blasts can do things the Archer's arrows can't.
Mark Seifter wrote: I am not certain based on your post, but I think you're missing that feel the burn is active for the rest of the day once you spent that much burn once. You don't need to spend the burn each round to get the bonus. Well, that's not so bad...
Fomsie wrote: Right, but his self damage was off, at level 10 the damage he would be taking is 10 points per point of burn, so 3 burn to max out his potential Feel the Burn for his level would be 30 points of unhealable damage. If he never used Burn again for the day. Then again... Maybe it is. That's about 25% of the character's health (23.44%, to be precise), even with Toughness and favored class bonus.
I don't want to sound negative, but as it is, the kineticist is quite underpowered. The class has a few nice tricks (like having Fly at will), but it needs to suffera considerable amount of unhealable damage just to be mediocre at blasting, and its out of combat usefulness is limited to say the least. :/
I'd like to know what's the expectation of Burn usage for the class, because I don't see how the HP loss can work... Use it twice and any CR-appropriate enemy will drop you unconscious with a single a hit, and the Kineticist doesn't have the enough range, AC or DR to mitigate that. Are players supposed to only use it once, maybe twice a day?
This class desperately needs a boost in accuracy, skills and AC. Honestly, the element-specific class skills could very be class skills for the whole class. And they definitely need at least 4 skill points per level. My dwarf Kineticist could invest in Fly, Perception and Stealth... Thelast two skills are the bare minimum to be a passable scout (which is the easiest skill role to fill)
Even though my Kineticist dumped both Str and Cha to 7 and 5, he still had poor accuracy, 3 skill points per level, a +10 will save and mediocre HP (the huge bonus to HP from high Con, Toughness and FCB just alleviates the non-healable damage that he needs to suffer in order to hit anything with his blasts)
- - -
I honestly feel bad criticizing this class so heavily. I think it has a lot of potential and it's really interesting, but mechanically speaking, it's... not very good. At least, not in its current version. Specially the Pyrokineticist.
Morzadian wrote: A Ranger's Woodland Stride is a combat utility, similar to the Kineticist's Flame Jet. It's the Ranger's spells that provides out-of-combat utility. I have to disagree that Flame Jet is a combat utility completely. It can help in combat cause you can fly but I would say it is also out of combat utility because you can fly.
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brad2411 wrote: Morzadian wrote: A Ranger's Woodland Stride is a combat utility, similar to the Kineticist's Flame Jet. It's the Ranger's spells that provides out-of-combat utility. I have to disagree that Flame Jet is a combat utility completely. It can help in combat cause you can fly but I would say it is also out of combat utility because you can fly. Point taken. I was making a generalization. Yes I agree, it's applicable in both situations.
Atarlost wrote: LazarX wrote: technarken wrote: If you can use Ride The Blast to target a square or an object an Aerokineticist gets at will teleportation to line of sight within almost a quarter of a mile.
You really can't target a 5 foot square from a quarter of a mile away. Not going to happen. Why? A 5 foot square has a lower AC than anything that might be standing in it. On what grounds is it impossible to target when creatures are? Yeah, in a post about a day ago, I worked out the math that with ride the blast, an aerokineticist, and extreme range. And use the specialization in extreme range for a no-burn, 960 ft move, using your attack. And if you can't see, I'm sure there are some goggles out there that can help out with that.
Perfect run and gun sniper, imo.
Lemmy wrote: I'd like to know what's the expectation of Burn usage for the class, because I don't see how the HP loss can work... Use it twice and any CR-appropriate enemy will drop you unconscious with a single a hit, and the Kineticist doesn't have the enough range, AC or DR to mitigate that. Are players supposed to only use it once, maybe twice a day? That's going to be the million-dollar question. I haven't gotten to have any live testing yet, but my builds are generally very, very focused on keeping 'active' burn costs to a minimum, ideally 0-- I want to have effective damage without destroying myself. I'm more accepting of spending Burn for things like Kinetic Form or boosting the defensive bonuses, but if I have to spend burn to kill a target, it had better be an all-out nova assault (and I'd better be able to go to sleep right afterwards).
Lemmy wrote: This class desperately needs a boost in accuracy, skills and AC. Honestly, the element-specific class skills could very be class skills for the whole class. And they definitely need at least 4 skill points per level. My dwarf Kineticist could invest in Fly, Perception and Stealth... Thelast two skills are the bare minimum to be a passable scout (which is the easiest skill role to fill)
Even though my Kineticist dumped both Str and Cha to 7 and 5, he still had poor accuracy, 3 skill points per level, a +10 will save and mediocre HP (the huge bonus to HP from high Con, Toughness and FCB just alleviates the non-healable damage that he needs to suffer in order to hit anything with his blasts)
He's an Aerokineticist, right? Is there a reason you're putting more focus on Air Blast instead of Electric Blast, or dropping Expanded Element for Cold Blast/Fire Blast? It seems like that solves the accuracy issues.
That's kind of the problem for accuracy balance that I'm starting to see. I've been building Touch-based ones and generally have no problem hitting anything, to the point that I'm outright ignore the generally-necessary Precise Shot. Other people are using the non-Touch blasts and are eating hit rates in the 60%-40% range. One of these has beautiful aim, the other can't hit the broad side of a barn. So... some bonus to-hit for the solid blasts is probably in order, but general full BAB might not be.
Of course, the touch-blasts have their own issue. I'm desperately hunting for a solution to Cold Immunity and shooting death glares at Winter Witches.
AC is the reason most people are favoring the Hydrokineticist I think-- +4 Armor AC or +2 Shield AC (Probably the latter) out of the gate, more as you level, and you can Burn to boost. Otherwise, it's burn feats or a level for better Armor Proficiency I think. Kinetic Form is a huge help at higher levels though.
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I find it amusing that the Kineticist topic has 930 posts, while all the other classes combined have 678.
People (myself included) really want this to be as great as it can be.
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kestral287 wrote: He's an Aerokineticist, right? Is there a reason you're putting more focus on Air Blast instead of Electric Blast, or dropping Expanded Element for Cold Blast/Fire Blast? It seems like that solves the accuracy issues. I didn't want to be basically useless against opponents with energy resistance/immunity and/or SR.
I don't think full BAB would hurt the balance of the class (and it could really use the accompanying increase in HD). The blasts are not that powerful. Electric Blast, for example deals an average of 32.5 damage per turn... That "meh" at best.
It's not only the BAB, the class also suffers from not having any accuracy boosting class feature (that doesn't take about 25% of their total hp) and not being able to use magical weapons.
Non-touch blasts have the same accuracy as a Rogue with no magical weapon. :/
Drejk wrote: The burn as is seems to me to suffers from a greater problem... Because each point of burn inflicts one point nonlethal damage per level that cannot be healed until the next day, it means that average kineticist cannot use more burn per day than 4.5+Con modifier. Which at higher levels is about two wild talents/metakinesis use, three or four with Constitution increasing effects. 20th level character focused on Constitution can reasonably have ability score of 36, which gives +13 modifier - about 17-18 burn points per day. Seems ok, allowing to use the max boosted powers three times per day. Assuming you don't do anything else... And you don't mind fainting ever other round when an opponent stabs you for 1d6 damage dropping you current hit points below nonlethal damage already suffered... I 100% agree with this. Burn needs to be overhauled, probably with set damage values.
Lemmy wrote: kestral287 wrote: He's an Aerokineticist, right? Is there a reason you're putting more focus on Air Blast instead of Electric Blast, or dropping Expanded Element for Cold Blast/Fire Blast? It seems like that solves the accuracy issues. I didn't want to be basically useless against opponents with energy resistance/immunity and/or SR. Fair point. A solution to energy resistance is needed for Touch blasts like a solution for AC is for non-Touches.
Lemmy wrote: I don't think full BAB would hurt the balance of the class (and it could really use the accompanying increase in HD). The blasts are not that powerful. Electric Blast, for example deals an average of 32.5 damage per turn... That "meh" at best. The only thing that worries me about full BAB is the obnoxious power that Kinetic Blade starts to put out when you get four attacks instead of three. That might be me worrying too much, though it also might be worth testing at higher levels.
The difference between Electric Blast and Air Blast should be fairly minimal; only half your Con mod.
Lemmy wrote: It's not only the BAB, the class also suffers from not having any accuracy boosting class feature (that doesn't take about 25% of their total hp) and not being able to use magical weapons.
Non-touch blasts have the same accuracy as a Rogue with no magical weapon. :/
See... I'd call the ability to target Touch the class' main accuracy-boosting class feature. Admittedly, that also seems like a bug rather than a feature right now.
Magical Weapons is the other issue needing resolution. They need an Amulet of Mighty Facemelting.
kestral287 wrote: The only thing that worries me about full BAB is the obnoxious power that Kinetic Blade starts to put out when you get four attacks instead of three. Considering the poor defenses the class has (light weapon proficiency and surprisingly low hp) I don't think it's a big deal.
kestral287 wrote: Magical Weapons is the other issue needing resolution. They need an Amulet of Mighty Facemelting. Not an amulet! The Kineticist's AC is just not good enough to compensate for the lack of Amulet of Natural Armor... And they certainly don't have the HP to endure more hits. :/
Burn just doesn't work very well, IMO... Use it twice, and there goes half your hp....
Lemmy wrote: kestral287 wrote: The only thing that worries me about full BAB is the obnoxious power that Kinetic Blade starts to put out when you get four attacks instead of three. Considering the poor defenses the class has (light weapon proficiency and surprisingly low hp) I don't think it's a big deal. Reasonable-- though I'd expect at least one of those two issues to be solved before BAB jumps. Not that I wouldn't be very happy to be wrong.
Lemmy wrote: kestral287 wrote: Magical Weapons is the other issue needing resolution. They need an Amulet of Mighty Facemelting. Not an amulet! The Kineticist's AC is just not good enough to compensate for the lack of Amulet of Natural Armor... And they certainly don't have the HP to endure more hits. :/
Fair. I went with Amulet because it's easier shorthand for "class-specific Amulet of Mighty Fists". I'm figuring on Gloves or Bracers, personally.
kestral287 wrote: Fair. I went with Amulet because it's easier shorthand for "class-specific Amulet of Mighty Fists". I'm figuring on Gloves or Bracers, personally. I'd like a robe, although gloves is okay. As long as it's not a belt, headband, cloak, amulet or ring, it works...
I hope the class gets an unarmed variant so we can play Avatar!
BTW... Why does the kineticist have a good Reflex instead of Will? I get the good Fort, but Reflex? It's a form of psychic magic. That screams Will! Nothing about the class screams Reflex.
Lemmy wrote: kestral287 wrote: Fair. I went with Amulet because it's easier shorthand for "class-specific Amulet of Mighty Fists". I'm figuring on Gloves or Bracers, personally. I'd like a robe, although gloves is okay. As long as it's not a belt, headband, cloak, amulet or ring, it works... I'm really hoping not a Robe, because they can get great use out of the Otherworldly Kimono. Another combat option, frees up the shoulders, and a bonus on CL checks to let them nail concentration checks and spell resistance checks more easily.
Lemmy wrote: I hope the class gets an unarmed variant so we can play Avatar! Mark has hinted heavily at an archetype based around Kinetic Fist. In the same way that it's hinted heavily that the ocean is wet. Not the melee that I wanted, but I'll take it.
He's also dropped hints about a healer archetype, for the record.
Lemmy wrote: BTW... Why does the kineticist have a good Reflex instead of Will? I get the good Fort, but Reflex? It's a form ofpsychic magic. That screams Will! Nothing about the class screams Reflex. If I was a guy who played with fire for a living but wasn't immune to it, I'd learn to jump out of the way real fast too.
I don't know if this has already been addressed (thread too long, didn't read) but on page 6, column 2, "Fire," the Wild Talents: 1--Burning Infusion, Fire Sculptor.
Where is Fire Sculptor? I couldn't find it in the Infusion section, which starts on page 7, while I did find Burning Infusion there (which apparently costs 1 Burn).
[edit: I found it, on page 10...silly me, I expected the entries to be alphabetical!]
kestral287 wrote:
Lemmy wrote: It's not only the BAB, the class also suffers from not having any accuracy boosting class feature (that doesn't take about 25% of their total hp) and not being able to use magical weapons.
Non-touch blasts have the same accuracy as a Rogue with no magical weapon. :/
See... I'd call the ability to target Touch the class' main accuracy-boosting class feature. Admittedly, that also seems like a bug rather than a feature right now.
Though not every element has a vs touch blast. I dont think pure aether gets any until you get focus and double up on Aether for force damage vs touch, costing 2 burn that can only be reduced via that move action and when the combined discount comes in.
I'm not sure if Earth has a touch ac one either. I can't remember off hand but I seem to remember people talking bout it needing one also.
Maybe aether could get a sonic blast or some weaker touch based thing... Sonic would be neat. doing less damage of course, since then a pure aetherist is giving up power blasts for some utility lesser damage but easier to use damages.
Sonic doesn't really fit what Aether is though
also I vote for gloves as an item. like the gem based one I mentioned somewhere.
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Yeah, as cool as it is, Burn may need to be scrapped and reworked entirely. Making a class more fragile with no capability to mitigate said fragility to power his one and only class feature (essentially) is not the greatest.
If it's not going to be something that can be recovered, it needs to either be waaaaay reduced in cost or have some other limitation besides "And now you die faster".
Having a third "bar" that builds up and has debilitating effects would work better IMO.
Using your abilities gives you Burn points. When Burn hits a certain threshold, you get certain Conditions.
EX:
Burn = 1/4 HP: Fatigued (with a caveat that it otherwise overcomes immunity to Fatigue).
Burn = 1/2 HP: Fatigued and Sickened.
Burn = 3/4 HP: Exhausted and Sickened.
Burn = HP: Previous effect, and accepting further Burn causes you to fall unconscious.
Can be removed with regular healing magic, but on a 5:1 basis.
It has a similar effect, but doesn't make him less effective at SURVIVING combat, while still providing a concrete incentive to keep your Burn low.
I'd also probably reduce many Burn triggering abilities by 1 or 2 and/or boost the power.
kestral287 wrote: If I was a guy who played with fire for a living but wasn't immune to it, I'd learn to jump out of the way real fast too. Fair enough... BTW, why don't they get Energy Resistance/Immunity of any kind??? That seems like such an obvious ability to add to the class...
Earth does not receive a touch attack.
I'm working on building a Kineticist for PFS, and I realized something. I went Hydrokineticist with Cold Blast, and was thinking that with Cold Blast, there are a lot of enemies that have SR or are immune to cold. Then I realized that similarly, Cold Blast cannot penetrate DR/magic.
My solution to this (since I went human and maxed out on Dexterity, and had taken PBS and Precise Shot) was to buy a light crossbow. Then, I realized something.
In virtually every situation, the crossbow is better than my blast.
Alma the Hydrokineticist
Level 1 Human Kineticist
7 STR
18 (20) DEX
15 CON
10 INT
12 WIS
7 CHA
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Wild Talents: Extended Range
Now, let's look at the advantages and disadvantages of Cold Blast vs Light Crossbow.
Cold Blast
Pros:
Hits touch AC
No reloads
Can take 5 foot step and fire
Cons:
Less range than xbow unless using full round or burn
Cannot bypass DR
Affected by SR
Creatures can be immune to cold
Cannot ever be made to bypass DR or Hardness
Less damage (d6 + 1)
Light Crossbow
Pros:
Can be enchanted later to bypass DR
Not effected by SR
Creatures cannot be immune to it
More damage (d8)
More range unless extend range is used
Cons:
Does not hit touch AC
Needs move action to reload
Cannot take 5 foot step while reloading and firing on same turn
I'm fairly certain there is a problem with the class when the blasts will not outdamage that crossbow until level 3, and really don't have any other advantages over the crossbow until level 6 when I can get a free entangle for a full round action.
@Timrod--Cold blast ignores all DR.
Zwordsman wrote: kestral287 wrote: See... I'd call the ability to target Touch the class' main accuracy-boosting class feature. Admittedly, that also seems like a bug rather than a feature right now.
Though not every element has a vs touch blast. I dont think pure aether gets any until you get focus and double up on Aether for force damage vs touch, costing 2 burn that can only be reduced via that move action and when the combined discount comes in.
I'm not sure if Earth has a touch ac one either. I can't remember off hand but I seem to remember people talking bout it needing one also.
Maybe aether could get a sonic blast or some weaker touch based thing... Sonic would be neat. doing less damage of course, since then a pure aetherist is giving up power blasts for some utility lesser damage but easier to use damages.
Sonic doesn't really fit what Aether is though
also I vote for gloves as an item. like the gem based one I mentioned somewhere. Aether and Earth are missing them, while Fire lacks a non-Touch blast. Personally, I fall into the camp that everybody needs to have two blast options come release. I would also really like to see them get both, but I might be alone in that one.
Rynjin wrote: Yeah, as cool as it is, Burn may need to be scrapped and reworked entirely. Making a class more fragile with no capability to mitigate said fragility to power his one and only class feature (essentially) is not the greatest.
If it's not going to be something that can be recovered, it needs to either be waaaaay reduced in cost or have some other limitation besides "And now you die faster".
The big question there is whether or not it's necessary to Burn frequently. Infusion Specialization is an excellent cost-reducer that says, to me, that we don't need to pay all that often-- I've certainly planned around not paying Burn for individual blasts often, if ever.
Though I'd love to see Infusion Specialization branch out to Form, Substance, or Metakinesis, probably with a notation that, like the current Metakinetic Master, you can pick one Metakinesis. The build I threw out earlier was at the point of getting free burn on all primary infusions at level 8, and then I had three Substance Infusion Specializations in there for no real reason beyond "because I can". I would love to be able to replace those with making Metakinesis actually usable.
So basically, something like this:
Infusion Specialization (Ex): At 5th level and every 3 levels
thereafter, a kineticist chooses form, substance, or metakinesis. If she chooses Form or Substance, she reduces the burn cost of whichever type of infusion she selects by 1 point (to a minimum of 0 points). If she chooses Metakinesis, she reduces the burn cost of a single Metakinesis by 1 (to a minimum of 1 point).
To compensate for its schtick being stolen Metakinetic Master could either have an across-the-board reduction (somewhat risky because it means /massive/ high-level firepower, but the Wizard was casting Wish three levels ago soooo... mreh), or reduce the cost of a single one by 2 instead of 1, and keep the minimum-zero.
That solves damage augmentation and reduces some of the worst burn costs all in one go, while increasing player customization.
Grrrrr, I really want to create a Kitsune Pyrokineticist for the whole 'foxfire' theme, but the fact that humans are far better at the class in almost every way (and will get better when the favored class bonus comes out) drives me crazy. XD
kestral287 wrote: See... I'd call the ability to target Touch the class' main accuracy-boosting class feature. Admittedly, that also seems like a bug rather than a feature right now.
Magical Weapons is the other issue needing resolution. They need an Amulet of Mighty Facemelting.
I feel like all the basic blasts should target Touch AC. If you're not making iteratives, one touch attack per round is not that big a deal, especially if all of them also have to contend with Spell Resistance. The Kineticist is also a ranged attacker without any bonus feats; instead of spending class features on Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, he can simply eat the penalty because he's targeting touch AC. And if he grabs he really wants he can grab those feats anyway only now he's making himself stronger instead of simply trying to keep up.
The biggest concern would be melee kineticists (with their extra attacks per round), but they also have to deal with casting defensively (and blasts always count as the highest level spell possible) as well as general melee squishiness.
Composite blasts can remain ranged attacks. Here's your real risk-reward option. The attack is harder to hit and you have to burn yourself, but you get to double your damage if you pull it off. If needed, the metablast effects can also change the blasts from targeting touch to regular AC. A kineticist's un-augmented blasts will never get truly impressive, but at least they will be consistent.
The difference then between touch physical and touch elemental attacks would be whether you want to deal with Damage Reduction or Elemental Resistance, and the latter is at a considerable disadvantage. Here more forms and substance infusions can help differentiate the two. Looking at the existing options, most of the non-universal forms can only be used with physical blasts and allow you to hit multiple targets. Conversely, of the scant few substance infusions, most are slanted towards the elemental blasts. If substances still applied even if all the blast damage was negated (but the attack still connected) then elementalists can still go around debuffing enemies even against immunitues. Physicalists have the advantage in blasting groups of enemies, but that's still only just damage. Metal and Blue Flame kineticists have the unique bonus of access to both multi-target forms and debuff substances. In exchange for not having two different blast types, they can debuff whole groups of enemies.
Re: Burn
I like the burn point mechanics and I feel that the costs and reducers are well calculated, though playtesting will see if they bear out. At-will spell abilities make people jump to quick conclusions and a daily limit, or the perception of one, helps temper expectations.
I am ok with the non-lethal damage. It's a disincentive to going nova, and Kineticists have great potential to do so.
I do not like the unhealability of the non-lethal damage. It turns a class advantage (lots of HP!) into a disadvantage (you're actually really quishy). It also double taxes you for using your class abilities - your max hp AND your daily burn pool. And the benefits are not even that impressive (will you take a 2 CON drain for 1 AC or 1 DR/Adamantite?).
Well, the class is kind of set up to use Burn frequently, since everything the class can do besides its basic blast and the senses/movements Talents cost Burn.
It's the only resource the class HAS. It's sort of like if using Favored Enemy cost the Ranger to drain 1 HP a round.
So I have a question about armor. Since it is a spell like ability and not a spell does spell failure from armor still apply?
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