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Let's say we have an old green dragon that decides, for purposes of wanting to talk to the PCs in a 'civil' fashion/otherwise not reveal its draconian self, to use its alter self spell to take on the form of a human.
What will its stat block be like while under the effects of the spell?
Per the rules on polymorph spells, the following happens:
Base Stats after size modifications are made:
Str = 19
Dex = 12
Con = 17
Int = 18
Wis = 19
Cha = 18
AC = ?
This one depends on whether or not the dragon's natural armor bonus goes away. "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form." Is the dragon's +25 NA considered to be an extraordinary or supernatural ability depending on its original form? Because if not, then the dragon's AC actually goes UP while in human form, to a crazy AC 36... and if not, the dragon drops to a painful AC 11.
HP: Remain the same, I believe, as I see nothing about HP or hit dice changing.
Base speed is 30, loses flight, blah blah.
BaB = +19, + STR 4 = +23 to hit, but, what are the attacks? The dragon loses its bite, claw, and tail attacks, and has no weapon proficiencies. So... the humanized dragon could attack with a non-proficient weapon at a +19, I suppose.
The big question, though, is spellcasting. A dragon's spells are not born of taking class levels in sorceror; they are born of being, you know, a freakin' dragon. Does anything change regarding the green dragon's abilities to cast spells, given that it is no longer a dragon at the moment? What about spell resistance-- also something innate to being a dragon?
the nat armor, feels like it's based on it's original form, but hard raw, it's not an ability(nor are spells, though i think this has more to do with how long they've been alive than being a dragon).
The spells they keep. Their magical ability isn't tied into their physical form (nothing says it comes from their tail or wings or something).
The natural armor...
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc8s?Natural-Armor-and-Polymorph
IIRC, and it's been awhile since I read that thread through, some posters thought it was either lost or, at the least, you couldn't combine two (so if you kept them you couldn't also take any bonuses from polymorph spells).
Offhand I would adjudicate it as lost in a home game, seems it comes from some very physical traits (ie, hard scales tougher than iron or steel, sheer mass, dragon skin under the scales being tougher than leather, etc.) that are lost in the form change. However I'd also assume a dragon smart enough to do this would be smart enough to snag some AC items which wouldn't be lost or could be used in it's new form. However that's just knee jerk, I haven't researched this, if someone has a hard/fast RAW point that disputes that I wouldn't have a big issue either way.
Lazar: except, for pertinent story reasons, I want to use an old green dragon, and not all dragons have change shape. Green dragons do not. Additionally, change shape has a size restriction that alter self does not. (Change shape is within 1 size category of your base size; alter self just makes you either small or medium regardless of your original size.)
Shoulderpatch: thanks for the link. Yeah, I mean there's nothing saying the dragon can't then use shield and mage armor and so forth if it's down to a base AC 11, it's just something I have to consider when doing it.
Anyone have thoughts on immunities and DR? My gut says those would stay.
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Lazar: I intend to submit this, ultimately, to PFS. I don't know how lenient the editors will be on my going "well, it just works that way because I say it does," and I would prefer to err on the side of rule compliance.
Aside from that, I far prefer to play within the rules when I GM, because as a player I don't really like it when the story lets the monsters break the rules but I can't. That's a matter of personal preference, so... for the purposes of this question, I am talking about using alter self, which is a spell the green dragon usually has, and is the question I have presented.
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Does anything change regarding the green dragon's abilities to cast spells, given that it is no longer a dragon at the moment? What about spell resistance-- also something innate to being a dragon?
Polymorph spells don't change a creature's type and the creature only loses abilities that depend upon its shape or physical form. It's still a dragon and retains the spells and SR appropriate for a dragon. However, natural armour, which represents tough skin or scales is something gained from being shaped like a dragon so the dragon loses it while polymorphed into a humanoid (and a humanoid using Form of the Dragon conversely gains natural armour).
Anyone have thoughts on immunities and DR? My gut says those would stay.
I'm not sure about those. I feel like they're as tied to the dragon's dragon-ness as spells and SR, but on the other hand you can gain both from polymorph spells so there is at least some "form" component. When uncertain I tend to default to not losing the ability but you'll probably see variation ("While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed.")
RAW, Alter self just turns you into a dude. Not "subtly changes you from a dragon into a dragon shaped like a dude." So most interpretations say you end up with the stats of a dude. I.e. no natural armor bonus. This doesn't make a difference from Change Shape, which "works like polymorph" just like polymorph works like alter self.
"Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor."
Spell Resistance is an (ex) ability, so they lose it. Probably shouldn't, since I've known plenty of dragons who did the darmatic villain reveal AFTER laughing off a spell that bounced off their SR.
Creatures only lose extraordinary abilities that depend on their original form - things like Web, which requires spinnerettes.
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."
Spell Resistance they (probably) shouldn't lose, it's more intrinsic to the soul of what they are than the physical form. I don't think you can find a trend tying SR in the game to the physical forms of the creatures with it, it has more to do with their 'mystical-ness' which wouldn't be lessened because they were using a spell.
The Energy Resistances... that I'm unsure on. On the one hand, as polymorphs grant them and the different dragons don't share the same ones universally that would imply physical form matters, on the other hand some of the dragons have environment subtypes (White IIRC) so that might imply it's intrinsic to their very being not just their physical body. I'd lean slightly that they lose them, I'd think it has to be at least partly physical so it should (probably) go, I could see it going either way though.
I might rule differently between two dragon types doing this if one had a subtype they didn't lose in the process (if they keep a weakness they keep a strength basically) and the other didn't. I wouldn't let bonuses stack though.
Because polymorph has the RAW that the GM splits the hairs on powers/abilities/etc that could go either way, physical or not, I'd just assume this will have more table variation than most (as the RAW is basically "GM's individual call")
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I don't have any Pathfinder statted-up versions of Shape-shifted dragon NPCs, so I can't find book examples of dragons sneaking around in humanoid form.
I don't have a quote on this, just my fuzzy memory, but I think I remember reading somewhere that at least one of the Paizo guys is not a fan of the Dragon-disgiused-as-human trope, which is why they've largely avoided it in their products so far.
I just now noticed a discrepancy in the rules. Under the spell descriptions of spells like beast shape, it describes them as giving a natural armor bonus. Under the description of the polymorph subtype, however, it describes polymorph spells as giving a bonus to natural armor. Whichever one of these is true probably determines whether or not polymorph spells allow you to keep natural armor, because you can't get a "bonus to your natural armor" if you don't have any.
minor aside, if you don't have a natural armour bonus for most purposes you can be considered to have a natural armour bonus of +0. Otherwise amulets of natural armour would be useless to most PCs.
Only exception I can think of off the top of my head is qualifying for feats such as Improved natural Armour.
Okay, so in a side note on the natural armor thing...
Why give a doppelganger natural armor if they just lose it? Seriously, why would a doppelganger ever be like "oh dear, I need my +4 natural armor, I shall let everyone know I'm a doppelganger!" Sure, they have claws too, but if you are to the point that you've decided to let everyone know you're a doppelganger, then you can use your 2 claws rather than full iterative attacks with weapons only because you have no weapons and are to the point of desperation.
In fact, I am playing a doppelganger in a 3.5 game on Sundays, and when I told my GM my armor was 24, she didn't bat an eye. +4 Dex, +4 Natural, +6 (from +3 Studded Leather) armor. Didn't even occur to me that I would lose my natural armor, as others have said, natural armor is not typed as extraordinary... I am still a doppelganger, I just LOOK like a human. I think it would be the same for the dragon. The skin might not LOOK like scales, but it's still going to have the toughness of scales.
EDIT: Okay, if you give the dragon "Change Shape" like a Doppelganger has, rather than just the spell, then 100% yes they would keep their natural armor...
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their descriptions.
Emphasis mine. I will note that yes, it doesn't call out exactly what entails those "most of its own physical qualities" entails, but that to me, especially given that 3.5 did spell it all out, they'd keep natural armor...
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using change shape reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template. Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature:
The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.
And really, what is alter self other than the spell version of Change Shape, limited to humanoid forms?
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Polymorph spells changed dramatically and purposefully between 3.5 and Pathfinder. Quoting 3.5 rules on the subject will only lead to confusion and grief.
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Okay, so in a side note on the natural armor thing...
Why give a doppelganger natural armor if they just lose it? Seriously, why would a doppelganger ever be like "oh dear, I need my +4 natural armor, I shall let everyone know I'm a doppelganger!" Sure, they have claws too, but if you are to the point that you've decided to let everyone know you're a doppelganger, then you can use your 2 claws rather than full iterative attacks with weapons only because you have no weapons and are to the point of desperation.
In fact, I am playing a doppelganger in a 3.5 game on Sundays, and when I told my GM my armor was 24, she didn't bat an eye. +4 Dex, +4 Natural, +6 (from +3 Studded Leather) armor. Didn't even occur to me that I would lose my natural armor, as others have said, natural armor is not typed as extraordinary... I am still a doppelganger, I just LOOK like a human. I think it would be the same for the dragon. The skin might not LOOK like scales, but it's still going to have the toughness of scales.
EDIT: Okay, if you give the dragon "Change Shape" like a Doppelganger has, rather than just the spell, then 100% yes they would keep their natural armor...
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their descriptions.
Emphasis mine. Polymorph spells cause the subject to gain/lose/change certain physical traits, including senses, natural attacks, and ability scores. Change Shape does not adjust the last, but it should function normally with respect to other qualities. While natural armour is not explicitly listed as something lost, it seems to me quite clearly in the same category as senses and natural attacks - if you lose your ability to see in the dark, you will certainly lose your tough skin.
Dopplegangers get natural armour in their natural form for the same reason they get claws - because if you've let everyone know you're a doppleganger you're probably at a point of desperation and need any advantage you can get.
I didn't read everything (shame on me), but since the con changes his HP will change as well. He still gets d12s and will have plenty though.
Natural armor is not a sense.
Natural armor is not a natural attack.
So, sorry but saying "You lose senses and natural attacks" in no way says to me "oh and Natural armor too..." It may be RAI, but it's not RAW. And if it is RAI, then it's purely speculation on our part until a developer clarification is made.
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How exactly do you intend to submit this to PFS? ...etc.... Not to mention that it would be sheer suicide for a dragon to take on a party in combat while staying in a human form.
I don't really see how any of that is relevant to the fact that I asked a question in the Rules forum about how a certain spell interacts with a certain creature casting it, and that, by definition, my asking in the rules forum means I am asking for a rules-compliant answer, and that the advice I received from you was 'run it however you feel like it, because you're the GM'.
I explained that, for reasons of PFS legality, I was looking for a rules-compliant answer. How I intend to get it to PFS is my problem, not yours.
All I asked was for insight into a rules situation, as per the rules, in the rules forum. Whether you think the situation as outlined is stupid, out-of-character, or otherwise, really has no bearing on that and I don't really understand why you feel the need to go out of your way to point those things out. If I were asking for scenario-writing advice, all of that would be valid, but I'm not, I'm asking a rules question. That's all I'm asking.
Thanks to everyone else for the in-depth responses, anyway.
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Natural armor is not a sense.
Natural armor is not a natural attack.So, sorry but saying "You lose senses and natural attacks" in no way says to me "oh and Natural armor too..." It may be RAI, but it's not RAW. And if it is RAI, then it's purely speculation on our part until a developer clarification is made.
Getting too hung up on specifics for an ability that specifically requires GM arbitration:
While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
If you're worried about how PFS runs it, then I suggest asking PFS's GM, Mike Brock.
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Natural armor is not a sense.
Natural armor is not a natural attack.So, sorry but saying "You lose senses and natural attacks" in no way says to me "oh and Natural armor too..." It may be RAI, but it's not RAW. And if it is RAI, then it's purely speculation on our part until a developer clarification is made.
The polymorph description intentionally does not give an exclusive list of things that are lost: as blahpers pointed out the exact list is explicitly up to GM discretion. However each GM makes that decision based on certain arguments and comparison with what is explicit about the polymorph rules ("speculation").
For example, it doesn't say that you lose the ability to manipulate manufactured weapons if the new form lacks hands, but I think few would argue that a character polymorphed into a horse can pick up and wield a sword with their mouth without penalty. This decision may be supported by the fact that fact that weapons merge into an animal form, and that a caster in animal form cannot use spells with somatic components.
Natural armour is not as clear-cut, but we can support the decision to drop it based on the fact that tough skin is at least as physical and form-dependent as darkvision and scent, which are explicitly lost. Arguing that it's not explicitly lost and thus is kept is not a strong argument when the list is, RAW, not exclusive.
If your table continues to keep natural armour, that's fine, but I hope you at least understand why so many people would make a different call from you and your GM.
If your table continues to keep natural armour, that's fine, but I hope you at least understand why so many people would make a different call from you and your GM.
Yes, but that also is why I like a RAW inclusive list (that D&D 3.5 had, which included Natural Armor as kept) rather than leaving it all up to the DM, because when large portions of the rules are "at the DM's discetion" both as a player and as a GM it's annoying to have to write out a 20 page dissertation on all my house rules (or read a 20 page dissertation from another GM, I've had to do that before when a GM had a huge house rules document... might as well have just written his own system at that point) Much easier for me as a GM and as a player to know that "NO, Natural Armor is NOT included" so I can then say "House rule! Natural Armor is included!"