Why yes... For some reason, I did not offer Harsk as an option when I printed off a pile of pregens for people to choose from. He wasn't hanging around the lodge that day.
It's not two shots at -2, it's two shots at -10 compared to one at -4.
AC bonus of +4 for cover
-2 for Rapid shot
Just don't shoot at a target next to your friend... this means you shoot at a second rank figure (maybe the BBE?) or you get your friend to 5' back from the target. While running frontline characters I often step away from the badguy to give the shooters in the party a chance to hit. Esp. when in narrow halls.
But either way, it is not the "narrow passage" that is the problem that Percise Shot is fixing here, it would be shooting at a target next to your friends. These are two different problems. If Hmm had said "She chose rapid shot rather than precise shot, and precise shot is far more useful when your teammates stand next to all the targets." I would have not questioned it.
+4 AC for cover, -4 to hit for no Precise Shot, -2 for Rapid Shot.
vs
+4 AC for cover.
Precise Shot is far more useful when your teammates are always getting into melee(which is all the time, let's face it) especially in narrow passages.
The reason the archer pregen doesn't have precise shot at level 1, is that she will take it as a bonus feat at level 2.
And in any case, if she is lucky with initiative and position, she might be able to kill two enemies before they are in melee.
Well, the teammates did stand next to all the targets throughout the adventure, so my relative who played Arowyn felt really like he could do nothing with the character except beat things with a club.
We did have one guy in the adventure whose first reaction upon seeing a target was grappling it, and every target got surrounded fast. Still, Arowyn isn't a bad pick, and it was nice to have one archery option in the group of pregens.
Hmm
But, how do you get "teammates ... stand next to all the targets" and "narrow passages"? I mean unless you only have one or two targets?
"narrow passages" would seem to indicate that the passage is only one or two people wide, so if you have more than one or two targets your teammates would have to move past the first line to engage any in the back right?
It's not two shots at -2, it's two shots at -10 compared to one at -4.
AC bonus of +4 for cover
-2 for Rapid shot
Just don't shoot at a target next to your friend... this means you shoot at a second rank figure (maybe the BBE?) or you get your friend to 5' back from the target. While running frontline characters I often step away from the badguy to give the shooters in the party a chance to hit. Esp. when in narrow halls.
But either way, it is not the "narrow passage" that is the problem that Percise Shot is fixing here, it would be shooting at a target next to your friends. These are two different problems. If Hmm had said "She chose rapid shot rather than precise shot, and precise shot is far more useful when your teammates stand next to all the targets." I would have not questioned it.
+4 AC for cover, -4 to hit for no Precise Shot, -2 for Rapid Shot.
vs
+4 AC for cover.
Precise Shot is far more useful when your teammates are always getting into melee(which is all the time, let's face it) especially in narrow passages.
so, ... why not ask them to step out at the end of their full attack? They can step back in next round. (This isn't even counting the PCs who use reach weapons, or the possibility of shooting at the side of a Large monster). Kind of like asking for a clear charge lane right?
so, ... why not ask them to step out at the end of their full attack? They can step back in next round. (This isn't even counting the PCs who use reach weapons, or the possibility of shooting at the side of a Large monster). Kind of like asking for a clear charge lane right?
You must not play with the same players we do. :P
Also, hard to step back in a 5ft corridor with the rest of the party behind you.
so, ... why not ask them to step out at the end of their full attack? They can step back in next round. (This isn't even counting the PCs who use reach weapons, or the possibility of shooting at the side of a Large monster). Kind of like asking for a clear charge lane right?
(gotta train them young! that's one reason I play with a lot of beginers... teach them good habits early) ;)
You must not play with the same players we do. :P
Also, hard to step back in a 5ft corridor with the rest of the party behind you.
depends... if my archer is right behind you, and I tell my AC (which is behind me) to move out of the way, then I 5' step to give you the room... yeah. Tactics...
But here's another aspect that is often overlooked...
this rule helps:
"If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the -4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character." (CRB pg. 184)
It's surprising how many people don't know this...
This works something like this....
OOxxxA
OOxxxx
xBxxxx
A is an archer
B is his friend who is in melee with an
O is an ogre
A has a clear shot at the Ogre.
It doesn't work in a 5' hallway, but I've used it in more than one low level scenario (The Confermation comes to mind)...
people playing the pregens almost never have the level of system mastery required to make that work.
People not playing the pregens rarely do.
Also what happens then is that the ogre attacks... and 5 foots back. now the fighter has to get an aoo to come near him and can't full atack. Both of those are a pretty high price to pay for a paltry +4 to hit on 1d10 damage.
people playing the pregens almost never have the level of system mastery required to make that work.
People not playing the pregens rarely do.
Also what happens then is that the ogre attacks... and 5 foots back. now the fighter has to get an aoo to come near him and can't full atack. Both of those are a pretty high price to pay for a paltry +4 to hit on 1d10 damage.
If the Ogre 5 foots back... the fighter just Ready's an attack for when the Ogre move up again (then if the Ogre steps to 10' to swing, the fighter 5' steps to 5' and swings first). (or the fighter pulls a reach weapon and the problem goes away totally).
And the Archer just starts firing 2 shots each round until the Ogre either dies or closes. Either way the Fighter swings before the Ogre, and the Archer shoots with a clear shot.
people playing the pregens almost never have the level of system mastery required to make that work.
You only have to show them once... people are pretty smart, esp. if they are learning something for the first time.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
People not playing the pregens rarely do.
Old dogs are often harder to teach new tricks to... so yeah. "I know how to play this game. You stand next to the beast and hit it till it falls over. Don't need no fancy tactics."
people playing the pregens almost never have the level of system mastery required to make that work.
People not playing the pregens rarely do.
Also what happens then is that the ogre attacks... and 5 foots back. now the fighter has to get an aoo to come near him and can't full atack. Both of those are a pretty high price to pay for a paltry +4 to hit on 1d10 damage.
If the Ogre 5 foots back... the fighter just Ready's an attack for when the Ogre move up again (then if the Ogre steps to 10' to swing, the fighter 5' steps to 5' and swings first). (or the fighter pulls a reach weapon and the problem goes away totally).
And the Archer just starts firing 2 shots each round until the Ogre either dies or closes. Either way the Fighter swings before the Ogre, and the Archer shoots with a clear shot.
As a side note I don't know if you can have cover as a large creature from small creatures since you can chose any corner of your square why not just chose the top corner?
It would make sense that you can just shoot at the head (Assuming the roof isn't in the way).
people playing the pregens almost never have the level of system mastery required to make that work.
People not playing the pregens rarely do.
Also what happens then is that the ogre attacks... and 5 foots back. now the fighter has to get an aoo to come near him and can't full atack. Both of those are a pretty high price to pay for a paltry +4 to hit on 1d10 damage.
And he is within a 5' step for the fighter (B), since he was based before he 5' stepped, according to the placement in nosig's post. No AoOs on 5' steps, except in special circumstances, and the fighter still gets his full attack.
people playing the pregens almost never have the level of system mastery required to make that work.
People not playing the pregens rarely do.
Also what happens then is that the ogre attacks... and 5 foots back. now the fighter has to get an aoo to come near him and can't full atack. Both of those are a pretty high price to pay for a paltry +4 to hit on 1d10 damage.
And he is within a 5' step for the fighter (B), since he was based before he 5' stepped, according to the placement in nosig's post. No AoOs on 5' steps, except in special circumstances, and the fighter still gets his full attack.
I think what BNW was saying is this...
spoiler lots of diagrams:
Starting locations of example...
xx
OO
OO
xB
xx
xA
B 5' steps out to give A a clear shot. (A fires two arrows now)
xx
OO
OO
xx
xB
xA
Ogre attacks with reach and 5' steps away (to get an AOO on B if he closes)
OO
OO
xx
xx
xB
xA
and my point is that B just readies an attack for if Ogre move up to swing...(A fires two arrows more now)... which would like this... Ogre steps forward
xx
OO
OO
xx
xB
xA
and Bs ready goes off... B steps forward and swings.
xx
OO
OO
xB
xx
xA
So we are back to were we were before - except the Ogre got shot with 4 arrows (no shoting into melee and no cover, just a -2 for rapid shot).
As a side note I don't know if you can have cover as a large creature from small creatures since you can chose any corner of your square why not just chose the top corner?
Because the Large creature can choose the bottom back corner to defend from (technically you check ALL the corners but the quickest way to do it is to check the most advantageous one to the defender)
The cover rules kind of break for large creatures. A collosal dragon standing behind a 5 foot by 5 foot section of wall technically has cover despite having a broad side of barn sized keister sticking out of the other end. (though the dm can drop that to 2 instead of 4)
As a side note I don't know if you can have cover as a large creature from small creatures since you can chose any corner of your square why not just chose the top corner?
Because the Large creature can choose the bottom back corner to defend from (technically you check ALL the corners but the quickest way to do it is to check the most advantageous one to the defender)
The cover rules kind of break for large creatures. A collosal dragon standing behind a 5 foot by 5 foot section of wall technically has cover despite having a broad side of barn sized keister sticking out of the other end. (though the dm can drop that to 2 instead of 4)
(IMHO) the cover rules for Big Creatures actually deal with the individual squares of the large creature. (CRB - PG 196, paragraph "Big Creatures and Cover").
This is why you can attack a Large creature in a room, while standing in a 5'wide hall leading to that room. (See Diagram below)
OTTOOO
OTTOOO
XAXXXX
XOXXXX
XOXXXX
O is an open hallway/room square
X is solid wall
T is troll
A is the attacker.
A is tracing his attack to the all four corners of the trolls lower left corner square.
Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
The archer above shooting the ogre is stuck attacking the creature as a whole, which is going to give the ogre cover from the fighters tin plated keister. (and the dragon effectively hiding behind a dinner plate technically works vs an archer)
collosal dragon standing behind a 5 foot by 5 foot section of wall technically has cover despite having a broad side of barn sized keister sticking out of the other end. (though the dm can drop that to 2 instead of 4)
I don't think that's the case. Unless it's corner is blocked it's fair game.
Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
The archer above shooting the ogre is stuck attacking the creature as a whole, which is going to give the ogre cover from the fighters tin plated keister. (and the dragon effectively hiding behind a dinner plate technically works vs an archer)
crud... looks like that is right. (what I get for trying to work from memory). I forgot the "melee" qualifier... a reach weapon would be fine, but the
The Archer will have to take a 5' step to the left, which would fix the issue in this case...we'd have something like this then...
xx
OO
OO
xx
xB
Ax
A has a clear shot then.
For the collosal dragon standing behind a 5 foot by 5 foot section of wall ...
Partial Cover:If a creature has cover, but more than half the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to a +2 to AC and a +1 bonus on Reflex saving throws. This partial cover is subject to the GM's discretion.
Some people say that that means that even the +2 is subject to YMMV...
Doesn't a reach weapon use the missile rules for cover?
The Archer will have to take a 5' step to the left, which would fix the issue in this case...we'd have something like this then...
xx
OO
OO
xx
xB
Ax
A has a clear shot then.
Hmmmm... I think an attack to the Ogres South East corner hits B's rump then. But then there's the half visible thing (and this is why people tend to just glance at the map and say cover or no cover and move on....:) )
The mathematics of several challenging encounters dispersed throughout the various scenarios can't be denied. Admittedly, the new pregens are BETTER, but I'm still not comfortable in tier 8-9 or 10-11 with them.
I'd be uncomfortable with any 7th level character in that meathouse.
