Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Well in some settings dwarves use guns, they would be ideal, but since we already have a gunslinger...
All we need is some kind of crossbow that is so heavy or has some special rule attached to benefit from strength. Something like (and I blame dragon age for this):
Dwarven Crossbow:
Exotic Weapon two handed weapon, 2d6 piercing damage, weight about 20 pounds.
This heavy crossbow is designed to be used by strong creatures, and the user can reload the crossbow once per turn, per point of strength bonus.
Something like this, but obviously this is just a very rough stab at it.
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Crossbows have always been sub-optimal choices vs. the bow. IMO, if they just would have dropped the increased loading time, left the larger damage die, and kept xbows at 20/x3, they would be seen much more.
That they have an additional feat tax to be on par with a bow for an extra 1/2-1 point of damage on average is not worth it, especially at low levels.
I like that Harsk is not the proto-typical drunken, axe/hammer slinging dwarf. Yes, he still has an axe and yes he's still quite dour, but you can't take all the dwarf outta him. His artwork and iconography is pretty cool. His pregen version just doesn't make for an optimized character, especially at 1st level.
That being said, I have played him a few times and done just fine. Unfortunately, some people define a character by how much damage they can do in a round and that is too bad.
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That being said, I have played him a few times and done just fine. Unfortunately, some people define a character by how much damage they can do in a round and that is too bad.
Its a good baseline for comparison because, lets face it, they wouldn't be sending our characters if something didn't likely need at least a little murderation.
If he was a bard, or a support arcanist, or a suppoprt druid, or healer he wouldn't be getting beat over that head with that measuring stick. But he's a ranger. Shooting things in the face is what he does.
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With a little tactical forethought, you can mitigate may of the penalties he incurs.
Firing into melee? Delay and have your companions step back from the enemy after they have attacked.
Friendly cover in the way? Again, coordinated movement. Also, he's a ranger which should mean tracking and usually leading the party's formation. Firing with everyone behind you can mitigate the issue and then the melee'ers can charge in.
Its really no different than the struggles that other characters face. Merisiel depends heavily on flanking. Casters have to avoid companions or suffer collateral AoE damage. Clerics have to selectively channel or be careful where they stand so as to not provoke when trying to apply touch healing. Everyone has their subtle challenges to overcome. Often times, the complaints stem from lazy gaming.
I really don't want to fan the flames of pregen hate again. All, I'm saying is that too often the pregens are too harshly judged because they cannot just smash everything in the face until it coughs up loot.
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With a little tactical forethought, you can mitigate may of the penalties he incurs.
This "just be more tactical" is balderdash, especially for the least experienced players that the pregens are most often in the hands of.
Firing into melee? Delay and have your companions step back from the enemy after they have attacked.
Then the enemy steps away from them and is either free to cast and or denies the party its full attacks.
Friendly cover in the way? Again, coordinated movement.
From other players. Hardly guaranteed.
Also, he's a ranger which should mean tracking and usually leading the party's formation. Firing with everyone behind you can mitigate the issue and then the melee'ers can charge in.
And draw aoo's in the face, and block more important and damaging charge lanes for the rather prolific pfs melee.
Its really no different than the struggles that other characters face. Merisiel depends heavily on flanking. Casters have to avoid companions or suffer collateral AoE damage.
Merisiel is problematic on her own, but her chosen class makes that hard to avoid without flying in the face of a lot of rogue stereotypes.
Clerics have to selectively channel or be careful where they stand so as to not provoke when trying to apply touch healing.
And she comes with selective channel.
I really don't want to fan the flames of pregen hate again.
Have you considered the possibility that condescending statements accusing people of not liking the pregens because they're stupid, lazy, untactical, unimaginative munchkins who just want to kill things and loot them might not be the best way to go about banking the fires?
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especially for the least experienced players that the pregens are most often in the hands of.
I'm sorry, I thought the other, more experienced players at the table and the GM had a responsibility to HELP players learn how to play?
Then the enemy steps away from them and is either free to cast and or denies the party its full attacks
No one said every tactic works every time. Delaying actions to coordinate tactics can be quite effective, especially if the GM is lumping all the enemies into a single initiative. Players like to complain about that mechanic, but there are ways to take advantage of it.
From other players. Hardly guaranteed.
I thought this was a cooperative gamer. If you are playing with people who don't want to cooperate, find new players.
And draw aoo's in the face, and block more important and damaging charge lanes for the rather prolific pfs melee.
Again, not every tactic works every time. Shoot and then move out of their way.
You seems to like to take a bit of advice to help players be more effective and refute it because it is not 100% effective, 100% of the time.
Have you considered the possibility...
As the saying goes, if the shoe fits. I have experienced a lot of pregen complaints over the years, yet have been quite successful "teaching" players how to use the pregens more effectively, thus mitigating their inherent under-optimization. There will be times when a pregen is completely ineffective, but the same can be said about most player-built characters as well. Sometimes, the scenario is not suited for that character type. Regardless of pregen or not, if you know the player will not be effective, its best to at least advise them that another character choice might be better. No one wants to play the enchanter in an all-undead scenario. Or play a big, dumb meat-shield in a combat light, role-playing adventure, etc.
As I have said numerous times, the pregens are just fine when played with a modicum of care. That is really no different than any other character. Its a game of strengths and weaknesses and minimizing the effects of those weaknesses. Most changes that the vocal minority call for with the pregens stems from a personal perspective of how THEY think the game should be played and how THEY think characters should be designed.
In my experience, the only real obstacles to pregens being successful is the obstinance of the player not wanting to adapt their style to what is necessary to make them more effective or their lack of knowledge/inexperience making them more effective. I am merely trying to help improve the latter.
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I'm sorry, I thought the other, more experienced players at the table and the GM had a responsibility to HELP players learn how to play?No one said every tactic works every time.
Trying to explain the entire game system to people AND how to best take advantage of it at the same time doesn't work either. You do not explain the sicilian defense to a chess player on his first day, you explain that the little horsie moves in an L.
I thought this was a cooperative gamer. If you are playing with people who don't want to cooperate, find new players.
Some people, even those who have been playing a long time, don't know the rules well enough to be that cooperative. Many are not going to give up a full attack to avoid a -4 on a measley 1d10+2 damage. You only need 1-2 that either can't or won't push the pregen to the forefront, texting, sleepy, not paying attention, or simply have a different idea of what the pregen should do in order to throw your plans out the window.
Again, not every tactic works every time. Shoot and then move out of their way.
And then the damage drops even further.
You seems to like to take a bit of advice to help players be more effective and refute it because it is not 100% effective, 100% of the time.
For new players yes , because "Sometimes you do x sometimes you do y" isn't very helpful.
As the saying goes, if the shoe fits.
It does not. You don't know me. You don't know how I play. You are objectively and blatantly wrong and your spurious insults do nothing but undermine your argument.
I love to play tactically. Very few of my characters are in it for the damage. Almost all of them will try to talk to just about anything in the dungeon. One of them considers oozes a social encounter. But when I make a character that doesn't do damage I make damned sure they have some other way to contribute to combat. Harsk doesn't have that.
When I had a harsk this weekend, I slapped a magic fang, collar of obedience, life bubble, mage armor, resist fire, and +4 ac barkskin on biter. (next level: golem bane scarab... and harsk can get the collar)
I have experienced a lot of pregen complaints over the years, yet have been quite successful "teaching" players how to use the pregens more effectively, thus mitigating their inherent under-optimization.
I can mitigate a broken arm with an asprin. It only does so much.
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There are a few things they could try with Harsk:
1. Make him a two handed weapon style ranger and give him a great axe.
2. Break concept and give him archery style and a longbow.
3. Break concept and give him archery style and a shortbow.
4. Is there a gun weapon style? Muskets maybe? I don't know. I'm not sure that guncraft is common among Dwarves, but it's a thought, for the pregen only.
Ultimately, the crossbow is a simple weapon, and it's clear to me that developers went out of their way to make sure that martial weapons were better than simple weapns, so crossbows can't be as good as a longbow or shortbow.
Personally, I like option 1. Or at the very least make sure he has the feats (as he's able) to shoot the crossbow as effectively as a longbow with minimal feats.
This message provided by the Make Harsk Not Suck Foundation.
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For those who don't want to constantly and continually fight with me regarding the pregens, take a moment to read the advice given throughout this thread and see if you can incorporate it into your games. I think you'll find that the pregens, even Harsk, can be played effectively. They won't compete with your player-built characters for support, AoE, DPR, etc. (hint: they aren't expected to), but they can provide an enjoyable experience.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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Valeros, just for the novelty of the fact his build cheats. He gets two listed attacks with his short sword as part of his full attack, despite not having Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. :p I suppose whoever wrote the pregens realizes the undeniable truth that the whole TWF feat chain should just be one feat that scales with BAB. ;)
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Valeros, just for the novelty of the fact his build cheats. He gets two listed attacks with his short sword as part of his full attack, despite not having Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. :p I suppose whoever wrote the pregens realizes the undeniable truth that the whole TWF feat chain should just be one feat that scales with BAB. ;)
Nope, the valeros pregen seems correct, at least in the version I downloaded recently.
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Unfortunately, some people define a character by how much damage they can do in a round and that is too bad.While I can't speak for everyone I judge Harsk by his inability to do much of anything in combat. If you actually focus on using his crossbow at first level every other turn his only action is reloading his weapon. And if the fight starts with his crossbow stowed and not loaded you won't be able to do much of anything until the third round. And it's not like he's making some other contribution to combat while that's all going on. Sure, he's got some things that he can do outside of a fight and that's great, but combat tends to take up a significant amount of time at the table and if you're barely doing anything for all of that time I just don't see it being very fun.
Did you look at the updated pregen sheets yet? Harsk starts out with rapid reload: heavy crossbow at one, meaning he can both load (move action) and shoot (standard action) in a single round. No longer do you have to be loading your crossbow an entire round.
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With a little tactical forethought, you can mitigate may of the penalties he incurs.
Firing into melee? Delay and have your companions step back from the enemy after they have attacked.
Friendly cover in the way? Again, coordinated movement. Also, he's a ranger which should mean tracking and usually leading the party's formation. Firing with everyone behind you can mitigate the issue and then the melee'ers can charge in.
Its really no different than the struggles that other characters face. Merisiel depends heavily on flanking. Casters have to avoid companions or suffer collateral AoE damage. Clerics have to selectively channel or be careful where they stand so as to not provoke when trying to apply touch healing. Everyone has their subtle challenges to overcome. Often times, the complaints stem from lazy gaming.
I really don't want to fan the flames of pregen hate again. All, I'm saying is that too often the pregens are too harshly judged because they cannot just smash everything in the face until it coughs up loot.
I judge them harshly because a) they often can't pull their weight and b) the players using them often don't try very hard because they have nothing at stake.
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For those who don't want to constantly and continually fight with me regarding the pregens, take a moment to read the advice given throughout this thread and see if you can incorporate it into your games. I think you'll find that the pregens, even Harsk, can be played effectively. They won't compete with your player-built characters for support, AoE, DPR, etc. (hint: they aren't expected to), but they can provide an enjoyable experience.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
There is no hope for Harsk. I really feel like you are trying way too hard here. It's not enjoyable if Harsk causes my real PC to become road pizza. Unless the Campaign leadership wants to hand out free rezzes because their terrible pregen lead to my PCs death.
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There is no hope for Harsk. I really feel like you are trying way too hard here. It's not enjoyable if Harsk causes my real PC to become road pizza. Unless the Campaign leadership wants to hand out free rezzes because their terrible pregen lead to my PCs death.For those who don't want to constantly and continually fight with me regarding the pregens, take a moment to read the advice given throughout this thread and see if you can incorporate it into your games. I think you'll find that the pregens, even Harsk, can be played effectively. They won't compete with your player-built characters for support, AoE, DPR, etc. (hint: they aren't expected to), but they can provide an enjoyable experience.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
While I agree that Harsk is not optimally built, that doesn't cause your death, and that excuse is ridiculous.
Some of the pregens are not well designed, but I have seen player characters that are similar or even worse. Amazingly enough not everyone who plays PFS makes characters based on crunching numbers.
My experience with pregens is that they are often good, simple ways to introduce people to the game and that many people who play them are often more "heroic" (or reckless) and self sacrificing with the pregen because of their temporary nature, and they tend to be far more willing to "take one for the team".
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There is no hope for Harsk. I really feel like you are trying way too hard here. It's not enjoyable if Harsk causes my real PC to become road pizza. Unless the Campaign leadership wants to hand out free rezzes because their terrible pregen lead to my PCs death.For those who don't want to constantly and continually fight with me regarding the pregens, take a moment to read the advice given throughout this thread and see if you can incorporate it into your games. I think you'll find that the pregens, even Harsk, can be played effectively. They won't compete with your player-built characters for support, AoE, DPR, etc. (hint: they aren't expected to), but they can provide an enjoyable experience.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
While I agree that Harsk is not optimally built, that doesn't cause your death, and that excuse is ridiculous.
Some of the pregens are not well designed, but I have seen player characters that are similar or even worse. Amazingly enough not everyone who plays PFS makes characters based on crunching numbers.
My experience with pregens is that they are often good, simple ways to introduce people to the game and that many people who play them are often more "heroic" (or reckless) and self sacrificing with the pregen because of their temporary nature, and they tend to be far more willing to "take one for the team".
You may not agree with my position, but what exactly did I write that qualifies as an "excuse"? Excuse for what? Do I need an excuse to politely decline a table?
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Did you look at the updated pregen sheets yet? Harsk starts out with rapid reload: heavy crossbow at one, meaning he can both load (move action) and shoot (standard action) in a single round. No longer do you have to be loading your crossbow an entire round.Huh, interesting. I thought he didn't have that until the 4th level version. That does help quite a bit.
But crossbows are still awful. That's going to be an issue no matter how many feats they slather on.
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It's not enjoyable if Harsk causes my real PC to become road pizza. Unless the Campaign leadership wants to hand out free rezzes because their terrible pregen lead to my PCs death.
You may not agree with my position, but what exactly did I write that qualifies as an "excuse"? Excuse for what? Do I need an excuse to politely decline a table?
It is not the pregen causing your death, not how it is built, anyway. That is the excuse I am referring to.
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and in full plate my move is 40'... unless I cast fly or dim door... and the Agile Feet ability means I don't slow down in difficult terrain...
;)
Yeah, Dwarf in full plate armor... Travel Domain and longstrider!
Slowpoke. My dwarven cleric ALSO has a level of barbarian :-).
The look on the GMs face when you casually move 50 feet through difficult terrain and then attack is priceless :-).
Dwarven clerics of Cayden for the win :-) :-) :-)
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Level 1: Best Pregen is the Barbarian
Level 4: Best Pregen is the Barbarian
Level 7: Best Pregen is hands down the Druid.
I suppose to offer fair honest opinion (caveat: of the new pregens, I've only played 1.5 rounds as level 1 Kess):
Level 1: Hayato. With challenge, reach(a naginata),resolve, and Jinfu(a horse), he's got the best raw power of anyone. Hell, Jinfu alone might be the best level 1 pregen. Doesn't have power attack, so the damage is slightly behind Amiri, but Hayato has more staying power. And a horse.
Level 4: Hayato again. Level 4 is pretty good level for a samurai. An additional challenge, and additional use of resolve, Power Attack, a decent ranged weapon, and (Power attacking, without challenge, and 2handing the katana) +7 to hit at (1d8+8/18-20) is enough to carry his own weight. And he's still got a horse.
Level 7: This is where "best" becomes "best fit." The party will decide which level 7 pregen is most useful.
In a big party, the best pregen is always Lem. Performance, haste, 11 castings of dispel magic...
Amiri and Hayato have both stood up front and been beastly.
And I've seen Seoni be the diplomatic piece a small party was missing and completely turn failed scenarios into successes. Casting silence on the Gunslinger's musket for a stealth mission was a nice touch.
But, again, at level 7 far more than at levels 1 or 4, the rest of the party's makeup will decide which pregen is the best.
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It's not enjoyable if Harsk causes my real PC to become road pizza. Unless the Campaign leadership wants to hand out free rezzes because their terrible pregen lead to my PCs death.It is not the pregen causing your death, not how it is built, anyway. That is the excuse I am referring to.
You may not agree with my position, but what exactly did I write that qualifies as an "excuse"? Excuse for what? Do I need an excuse to politely decline a table?
It certainly can be. Not very often, but some scenarios require total party effort. Something like Sealed Gate comes to mind. A party member that can't contribute to party effort can cause an encounter to break against the PCs.
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Level 1: Best Pregen is the Barbarian
Level 4: Best Pregen is the Barbarian
Level 7: Best Pregen is hands down the Druid.I suppose to offer fair honest opinion (caveat: of the new pregens, I've only played 1.5 rounds as level 1 Kess):
Level 1: Hayato. With challenge, reach(a naginata),resolve, and Jinfu(a horse), he's got the best raw power of anyone. Hell, Jinfu alone might be the best level 1 pregen. Doesn't have power attack, so the damage is slightly behind Amiri, but Hayato has more staying power. And a horse.
Level 4: Hayato again. Level 4 is pretty good level for a samurai. An additional challenge, and additional use of resolve, Power Attack, a decent ranged weapon, and (Power attacking, without challenge, and 2handing the katana) +7 to hit at (1d8+8/18-20) is enough to carry his own weight. And he's still got a horse.
Level 7: This is where "best" becomes "best fit." The party will decide which level 7 pregen is most useful.
** spoiler omitted **
Hello, ladies.
Look at your pregen, now back to me, now back at your pregen, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped using crossbows and switched to martial weapons which he has all proficiencies for, he could perform like he’s me.Look down, back up, where are you? You’re at the end of a scenario, alive with the pregen your pregen could perform like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s a chronicle sheet with full gold and 2 fame awarded. Look again. The positive boons are all obtained!
Complete mission success is possible when your pregen is Hayato and not Harsk. I’m on a horse.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Level 1: Best Pregen is the Barbarian
Level 4: Best Pregen is the Barbarian
Level 7: Best Pregen is hands down the Druid.I suppose to offer fair honest opinion (caveat: of the new pregens, I've only played 1.5 rounds as level 1 Kess):
Level 1: Hayato. With challenge, reach(a naginata),resolve, and Jinfu(a horse), he's got the best raw power of anyone. Hell, Jinfu alone might be the best level 1 pregen. Doesn't have power attack, so the damage is slightly behind Amiri, but Hayato has more staying power. And a horse.
Level 4: Hayato again. Level 4 is pretty good level for a samurai. An additional challenge, and additional use of resolve, Power Attack, a decent ranged weapon, and (Power attacking, without challenge, and 2handing the katana) +7 to hit at (1d8+8/18-20) is enough to carry his own weight. And he's still got a horse.
Level 7: This is where "best" becomes "best fit." The party will decide which level 7 pregen is most useful.
** spoiler omitted **
Hello, ladies.
Look at your pregen, now back to me, now back at your pregen, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped using crossbows and switched to martial weapons which he has all proficiencies for, he could perform like he’s me.Look down, back up, where are you? You’re at the end of a scenario, alive with the pregen your pregen could perform like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s a chronicle sheet with full gold and 2 fame awarded. Look again. The positive boons are all obtained!
Complete mission success is possible when your pregen is Hayato and not Harsk. I’m on a horse.
So... We're going to be playing the Confirmation on Sunday. And there will not only be the three of us playing pregens, but someone else completely new playing a pregen (she said she wanted to go druid, or ninja.) And yet another player playing a rogue -- his own character, level 1.
I was going to play Quinn, because I love the heck out of his backstory, and his skills are fun. I also really wanted to try out the investigator class, and was really looking forward to playing him. But with the potential of two other rogueish types at the table, I think I had better play something with some smash potential.
On your recommendation, I've printed off the Samurai. (I also have the Paladin, the Barbarian, and the Brawler printed... Because someone else might want to play those.) But I think I'll go Hayato if I can't go Quinn.
Edited to add: Because he has a horse!
Hmm
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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On your recommendation, I've printed off the Samurai. (I also have the Paladin, the Barbarian, and the Brawler printed... Because someone else might want to play those.) But I think I'll go Hayato if I can't go Quinn.
Edited to add: Because he has a horse!
Hmm
Yeah, it would be bad if Lem were horse. Couldn't sing the pretty songs.
My character is not going to help you hoist a horse into a dungeon if that is where we get sent. :P
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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So, I thought that I'd report back here on the Pathfinder Pregens our group played and how we found them:
1) Quinn the Investigator -- I played him at 4th level on PFS adventure last Saturday because I had no PC at that tier, and my Sorceress would have been redundant with both a Magus and a Summoner at the table. He was an amazing character who literally saved the party with his sky-high knowledge rolls. He was well equipped with a variety of interesting potions and elixirs, had a partially charged cure light wand, and halfway decent combat potential when using his mutagens. I would totally play him again. I also love the personality written into this character from a roleplay perspective. I know he would be less impressive at first level, but at fourth he was awesome.
The other characters were played at first in a 1-2 tier on Sunday:
1) Lini the Druid -- Not a bad character. I liked her entangle spell. I wish they had given her little cat the flank trick from Animal Archive, and that she had goodberries in her inventory from the previous day and a different spell for adventuring other than goodberry prepared.
2) Hakon the Skald -- All Knowledge Skills turned out to be useful, and his raging song proved helpful to several characters. He wasn't bad to play at all. I found it odd that there was no diplomacy on this character, but I know that the intention was to pick up the skill via versatile performance at 2nd level. Fairly solid.
3) The Hunter (Arowyn?) -- I questioned the archery build, since teamwork feats might work better with melee. She chose rapid shot rather than precise shot, and precise shot is far more useful when you have a narrow passage and all your teammates are in the way. Still, a combination of a wolf companion and ranged attack made her pretty solid. Nice to see cold iron arrows, which actually came in handy in the scenario we played.
4) Crowe the Bloodrager -- Basically a barbarian at level 1, but quite formidable in melee. He smashed things well.
I actually didn't wind up doing the Samurai, so I will have to try the great joy that is Hayato on some other game.
Hmm
I recently played the 7th level Slayer pregen Zadim in a 7-11 Scenario that played low tier. I was impressed by his damage output. He did much more damage than I expected from a pregen. 4 attacks on a full attack with studied target was gravy. He seemed particularly squishy for being on the front line, but was able to help kill things faster than they killed him. Also, step up and strike was fun to use. (I waited all game for a chance to use it, GM had the caster/naga 5ft to blast the party with lightning, step up, strike, dead before cast)
I would just also point out, that while Precise shot would be what a lot of us might take, rapid shot is also a good option. With Deadeye Bowman, She can ignore cover if it is only being given by 1 creature. So if I was playing this hunter, I would try to focus on shooting enemies that werent in melee (other archers/spellcasters) while sending Leryn either in after, or at a melee target. As long as there is just 1 body in the way, the only penalty would be the -2 for rapid shot.
Most archers are going to struggle with melee and cover issues at level 1 (barring humans most of the time). Since the hunter can pick up precise shot for free at second level, it doesn't make much sense to give her the feat at first.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Well, the teammates did stand next to all the targets throughout the adventure, so my relative who played Arowyn felt really like he could do nothing with the character except beat things with a club.
We did have one guy in the adventure whose first reaction upon seeing a target was grappling it, and every target got surrounded fast. Still, Arowyn isn't a bad pick, and it was nice to have one archery option in the group of pregens.
Hmm