1) Is dual wielding with Rapiers allowed in Pathfinder (not referring to Pathfinder Society). I have an interesting concept for a character, which requires this be possible.
2) What do you guys think of the TWF system in Pathfinder? The link, below, leads to a discussion forum on the subject...
Thanks for any responses this may have garnered!
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?724084-Two-Weapon-Fighting-in-3-5-and-P athfinder
1) Yes, You can dual wield two one handed weapons but you take extra penaltys for doing so.
Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand is light&TWF feat –2 –2
In this case Dual wielding Rapiers would be -6/-10
Or -4/-4 if you have TWF feat.
2) Also as far as the link you posted, did a quick scan, Normally yes I would say that Two-Weapon Fighting style doesn’t deal as much damage as a strength build, but with the release of the Advanced Class Guide you can now pick up a feat called Slashing Grace and use Dex to hit and Damage with the selected one-handed slashing weapon(sorry, no bludgeoning or piecing) eliminating many of the problems a lot of people had with TWF Dex based builds.
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
PS: I really like the Two-Weapon Fighter Archetype for the Fighter, it makes TWF much more enjoyable as you level, further reduces penaltys, and being able to attack with both weapons as a standard action.
1) It's allowed, but the accuracy penalty isn't worth the miniscule damage increase when compared to smaller weapons.
2) It costs a lot of feats to be good at it, you have relatively poor mobility, and it's trickier to build a good one than other melee builds. Those complaints aside, the system works and two-weapon-fighters are functional characters.
It's something you can do, but it would be ineffective/require a heavy investment.
If you play other systems, I'd recommend saving this concept for 5e, in which you will need a feat to TWF with rapiers, but dex to hit/damage with rapiers is free.
Once Fencing Grace (dex-to-damage with rapiers) comes out there will be a decent reason to go 'case of rapiers'.
The 'reality' of Two-Weapon Fighting is badly represented in these systems because they're totally abstract in so many ways, and tend to play to absurdly simplistic ideas about using two weapons.
On a practical level, Dual Wielding can actually work out quite well in the right circumstances, but only if the problems with it can be compensated for. As one example: a Strength-based Dual-Wielder can use a Cestus as their off-hand weapon, so that any time they can't utilize their two-weapon fighting they can two-hand their main weapon.
1) Yes, You can dual wield two one handed weapons but you take extra penalties for doing so.
** spoiler omitted **
In this case Dual wielding Rapiers would be -6/-10
Or -4/-4 if you have TWF feat.2) Also as far as the link you posted, did a quick scan, Normally yes I would say that Two-Weapon Fighting style doesn't deal as much damage as a strength build, but with the release of the Advanced Class Guide you can now pick up a feat called Slashing Grace and use Dex to hit and Damage with the selected one-handed slashing weapon(sorry, no bludgeoning or piecing) eliminating many of the problems a lot of people had with TWF Dex based builds.
** spoiler omitted **PS: I really like the Two-Weapon Fighter Archetype for the Fighter, it makes TWF much more enjoyable as you level, further reduces penalties, and being able to attack with both weapons as a standard action.
I'll have to take a look at that archetype. I don't usually use them, so I'm not too knowledgeable about them.
My problem though, as a Bard, I'll already have a 0 BaB. With Weapon Finesse, I'd get a +4 (or -2, -6) unless, I opted for TWF (as you suggest) at 1st. Sure, it'd be less penalties... But still *grumbles unhappily*.
Why is dual-wielding a Bard so difficult!? *cries*
@schoolboy runaway Yes, you can — but with caveats. Rapiers are classified as one-handed piercing weapons, and they are not light weapons, which affects how Two-Weapon Fighting (TWF) works.
Give both Rapiers Effortless lace and suddenly they are light weapons....
I've run this extensively on Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Two rapiers works better than using a light weapon in one hand, because you can use the same set of feats to boost both weapons. Instead of trying to alleviate the base penalties, you can just layer on Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, etc. and reap the rewards with modest feat investment.
It’s an old thread so there are a couple more ways to reduce the penalties.
Hand’s Automomy reduces the penalties by up to 2.
Advanced Weapon Training: Effortless Dual-Wielding allows you to treat the off hand as light.
Not that it's relevant, but as a GM I stopped allowing Effortless less (but its not really relevant because my group no longer plays PF1), because it was too cheap to overcome the problem it was allowing to be overcome.
Hand's Autonomy or Effortless Dual Wield are perfectly fine though.
I’m not even sure if effortless lace was intended to apply to two weapon fighting. And there are readings where it would not.
If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.
I think RAI here points to feats that require a character to be wielding a light weapon, rather than feats that merely improve when a light weapon is used. At the same time, "Two-Weapon Fighting can be used in conjunction with light weapons" is an objectively true statement. Authors interested in a more restrictive use of Effortless Lace could simply have written "require the use of light weapons," instead.
Regardless, Effortless Lace strikes me as very cheap even if it's only intended to be a back door to Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike, Cloak and Dagger Style, etc.
If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.
But the penalties for two weapon fighting aren’t any of those things. They are described in the combat chapter. They are the opposite of special abilities. They are “regular abilities”.
The feat for two weapon fighting doesn’t care what you are wielding but just lowers the penalties from the combat chapter, regardless of if the weapon is light or not
If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.I think RAI here points to feats that require a character to be wielding a light weapon, rather than feats that merely improve when a light weapon is used. At the same time, "Two-Weapon Fighting can be used in conjunction with light weapons" is an objectively true statement. Authors interested in a more restrictive use of Effortless Lace could simply have written "require the use of light weapons," instead.
Regardless, Effortless Lace strikes me as very cheap even if it's only intended to be a back door to Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike, Cloak and Dagger Style, etc.
Considering that for the most part, effortless lace allows you have all that stuff and swap from a d4/d6 weapon to a d8, it really doesn't "do" all that much.
But the penalties for two weapon fighting aren’t any of those things. They are described in the combat chapter. They are the opposite of special abilities. They are “regular abilities”.
The feat for two weapon fighting doesn’t care what you are wielding but just lowers the penalties from the combat chapter, regardless of if the weapon is light or not
Don't get me wrong, I'm inclined to agree with you. I just get why certain tables might arrive at a different conclusion.
Considering that for the most part, effortless lace allows you have all that stuff and swap from a d4/d6 weapon to a d8, it really doesn't "do" all that much.
Sure, but it's still the equivalent of a feat (a damage bonus by another name roughly equal to Weapon Specialization), on a magic item that occupies no slot, for 2,500 gp. Ioun Stones that achieve the equivalent (for the Alertness or Endurance feats) cost 8,000-10,000 gp.