I'm looking to create an effective archer but I don't just want a boring combat character. I've just finished playing a paladin so please don't suggest one, I've looked into a fighter but he's just combat orientated and a little boring.
Any suggestions gratefully appreciated
Inquisitor or Ranger
Inquisitor has higher Nova DPR, Ranger is more consistent. You can also add Slayer to the list. Rangers and Slayer's get the ability to ignore prereqs for some archery feats. The big one being improved precise shot.
Ranger's get an animal companion which is very nice. Being able to always move and get a full attack is huge. Inquisitor can get an animal companion, but requires them to select the proper domain to do so, and domains require having specific gods that may or may not mesh well with your overall character concept.
I believe the Ranger has higher DPR until 8th level when the Inquisitor gets their 2nd Judgement effect. At that point the Inquisitor and Ranger have roughly the same DPR not accounting for Bane. The Inquisitor needs both Destruciton and Justice Judgements running at the same time to keep their to hit (and subsequently damage) on the same level as the Ranger's.
Starting from 1st I'd go with ranger or slayer. Not getting improved precise shot at 6th is a gigantic bane IMO. Both classes can be skilled in certain areas, and the slayer makes a great rogue replacement. I like the ranger a little more myself because of the animal companion and instant enemy, but both are fine choices and have different strengths and weaknesses.
I rather like Monk - Zen Archer. Equipped with a comp long bow for STR bonus to damage, of course.
By 3rd level you have Point Blank Master (no opp shots when I shoot a bow, yay). As well as Weapon Focus, Perfect Strike and lots of extra monk goodies via Ki pool at 4th.
I've always felt one of the biggest dangers to a bow wielder was attacks of opportunity against you when something got up close and personal. By level 3, it's a non-issue.
You might even want to consider a 3 level dip into Zen Archer to start and then flip to another class.
Seconding the Zen Archer. It's so good, I refused to play one because I would have felt guilty about it.
I'll third Zen Archer.
I've been looking seriously into a build for PFS and plan on using GM credit to boost her to 3rd before I bring her to the table so she's up and running right out of the gate. Damage is good, but adding in the extra monk goodies and excellent saves makes it a win in my mind.
To each his own though.
Ranger with the Guide archetype and 'boots for every terrain'. Your party will thank you for the bump in initiative, stealth, etc.
I'm not that familiar with the Monk option, but I;ve done some spreadsheets on this.
The Ranger seems the obvious answer, and it is, provided he is always fighting his favored enemy.
If you go with a Weapon Master Fighter, you can do the job better against non Favored enemies, and with more consistent damage against a broader collection of foes.
What you lose out on with the Fighter option is all of the added utility the Ranger gives you: spells, pet, skills, etc.
So, if your question is all about the combat, I actually think the Fighter is a better option. However, if you are also worried about the other stuff, then go with the Ranger.
Happy to provide you my geek spreadsheet if you want to see how I crunched my numbers.
The Monk Zen Archer doesn't compete against the fighter and the ranger, damage-wise, but with the Qiggong archetype, they're really fun to play. High mobility, high saves, high AC, no provoking when you fire, and an unarmed strike to threaten in melee and provide flanking.
Three-four levels in Zen Archer makes a good start to any archer build. Six levels is my preferred stopping point, after picking up Improved Precise Shot.
Zen Archer dovetails well with Ranger, since they're both Wisdom-based.
Zen Archer and Inquisitor have some nice Wisdom synergy as well, with some good ability to really up attack and damage bonuses when you need to.
I'm currently experimenting with a couple of PFS characters, one an inquisitor who will dip into Zen Archer and one the other way around.
I'll third Zen Archer.
I've been looking seriously into a build for PFS and plan on using GM credit to boost her to 3rd before I bring her to the table so she's up and running right out of the gate. Damage is good, but adding in the extra monk goodies and excellent saves makes it a win in my mind.
To each his own though.
What he wants is something with options besides combat. The Zen Archer is the best archer but not that much else.
Rangers used to be the defined archer before APG, and they bring spell and wand use as well as a heck of skill set. They're also good stealthers, and if they don't have an animal companion, they have a nature bond which can be a party benefit.
This. If he wants an all around archer character, Ranger or Inquisitor. If he was going pure archery with no concern for anything else, Zen Archer.
Dont forget the Sohei in mid to end game
Trekkie, that is what the Guide archetype excels at. You do not usually need a high attack bonus/damage against small NPC types but against the BBEGs the Guide always has the ability to select it for an extra bonus to attack and damage.
Trekkie, that is what the Guide archetype excels at. You do not usually need a high attack bonus/damage against small NPC types but against the BBEGs the Guide always has the ability to select it for an extra bonus to attack and damage.
Therefore you have instant enemy - and that is why guide is a bad choice most of the time.
Actually a Zen Archer does great for damage. You just have to realize that you need to build differently and that until 3rd level you are going to be a little weak. Optimally you want a 13 DEX to qualify for deadly aim. Other than that DEX is not important. Put your points into WIS and STR with enough CON to keep you alive. Dump CHA to hell because it does nothing for you. INT leave at 10 so you don’t lose skill points.
Almost all your archery feats are given as bonus feats. Don’t take rapid shot or many shot use flurry of arrows instead.
Wasum, many campaigns only go to level 13-14 and Instant Enemy is only an option at level 11 (level 10 if you have a 16 Wisdom which most rangers do not have).
If you want to wait until your character is finished to get an ability that is up to you but frankly, I'd rather use an "Instant Enemy" (Ranger's Focus) like ability for my entire career rather than waiting until level 11 (or 10) to be guaranteed to have my Favored Enemy be the BBEG.
Additionally, at level 10 or 11 you will only have one (or two if you have a 16 wisdom) guaranteed uses of "favored enemy" (via Instant Enemy) while I will have four guaranteed "favored enemy" (via Ranger's Focus) uses per day.
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I'm looking to create an effective archer but I don't just want a boring combat character. I've just finished playing a paladin so please don't suggest one, I've looked into a fighter but he's just combat orientated and a little boring.
Any suggestions gratefully appreciated
I would say the most effective overall archer is the 1 fighter/1wizard/10EK/XAA/Xwiz build. It gets you pretty much the most versatility of anyone combined with top notch damage. You don't feel excluded later in the campaign either.
Everyone is focusing on the zen archer here because it's really simple to build and play, but his damage falls off at higher levels a bit and ultimately he faces the same issues all of them do with windwall and magic effects.
Meanwhile, the EK is basically god, dropping anti magic shells with imbue arrow turning high level wizards into severely disgruntled commoners. The most effective archer isn't the most damage, it's the one who is able to do the most stuff.
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Wasum, many campaigns only go to level 13-14 and Instant Enemy is only an option at level 11 (level 10 if you have a 16 Wisdom which most rangers do not have).
If you want to wait until your character is finished to get an ability that is up to you but frankly, I'd rather use an "Instant Enemy" (Ranger's Focus) like ability for my entire career rather than waiting until level 11 (or 10) to be guaranteed to have my Favored Enemy be the BBEG.
Additionally, at level 10 or 11 you will only have one (or two if you have a 16 wisdom) guaranteed uses of "favored enemy" (via Instant Enemy) while I will have four guaranteed "favored enemy" (via Ranger's Focus) uses per day.
I agree with this. 10th level is a loooong time to wait for such an important ability.
I'm playing a bow ranger Nirmathi Irregular / Spirit Ranger in a home campaign. 9th level so far. Kind of wish I took Guide instead, but he's been very powerful in combat anyway. Guide would really have come in handy.Being useful out of combat is definitely something Rangers can do, but I believe that's more about how you play your character, than how you build your character. Skills and spells aren't everything.
Wasum, many campaigns only go to level 13-14 and Instant Enemy is only an option at level 11 (level 10 if you have a 16 Wisdom which most rangers do not have).
If you want to wait until your character is finished to get an ability that is up to you but frankly, I'd rather use an "Instant Enemy" (Ranger's Focus) like ability for my entire career rather than waiting until level 11 (or 10) to be guaranteed to have my Favored Enemy be the BBEG.
Additionally, at level 10 or 11 you will only have one (or two if you have a 16 wisdom) guaranteed uses of "favored enemy" (via Instant Enemy) while I will have four guaranteed "favored enemy" (via Ranger's Focus) uses per day.
I agree with this. 10th level is a loooong time to wait for such an important ability.
I'm playing a bow ranger Nirmathi Irregular / Spirit Ranger in a home campaign. 9th level so far. Kind of wish I took Guide instead, but he's been very powerful in combat anyway. Guide would really have come in handy.Being useful out of combat is definitely something Rangers can do, but I believe that's more about how you play your character, than how you build your character. Skills and spells aren't everything.
There's always merit to roleplaying, but if you just ignore skills or a lack thereof in regards to out of combat challenges, then why do skills even exist?
Inquisitor with slayer archetype from ACG.
You will get bonus archer feats from ranger, slayer bonus on hit and damage unlimited times, spells, and sneak attack as a complete bonus.
Inquisitors were already the most OP combat class, with this archetype youre op with combat tricks.
You will also get a domain, 6 kill points, all that inquisitor stuff, bonus teamwork feats, ability to shoot every time someone crits, and the list of opness go on...
Zen archer has the most shots and can skip a significant amount of archer feats while having a free relatively weak ones for free on top of that. Ranger has highest potential nova but only against favored enemies and is solid all around. Inquisitor is the most balanced of the three and has bane; meaning the inquisitor will never have the most DPR of the three but he will be the most reliable across ANY situation. Because of the domains and inquisitions I give a VERY small edge to inquisitor but any of these three are solid.
I would recommend as a seasoned zen archer player that you not play human with it though. You have so many feats for free and being eliminated by flurry that you finally have a reason to play something else. Half orc is especially good thx to his big saves.
Sohei has the most shots by far.
Found on d20pfsrd: Samurai Yabusame archetype (from Rite Publishing)
- level 5 ability: One with the Yumi (full-round action to shoot one arrow, add twice Dex to attack)
- level 6 ability: Shi no Ya (if you shoot once in a round, add Dex to damage, and arrow damage is x2; x3 at level 11; x4 at level 16)
...and they stack with each other and with the Vital Strike feat chain.
This can be in addition to a Zen Archer base, or not.
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I'm looking to create an effective archer but I don't just want a boring combat character. I've just finished playing a paladin so please don't suggest one, I've looked into a fighter but he's just combat orientated and a little boring.
Any suggestions gratefully appreciated
I would say the most effective overall archer is the 1 fighter/1wizard/10EK/XAA/Xwiz build. It gets you pretty much the most versatility of anyone combined with top notch damage. You don't feel excluded later in the campaign either.
Everyone is focusing on the zen archer here because it's really simple to build and play, but his damage falls off at higher levels a bit and ultimately he faces the same issues all of them do with windwall and magic effects.
Meanwhile, the EK is basically god, dropping anti magic shells with imbue arrow turning high level wizards into severely disgruntled commoners. The most effective archer isn't the most damage, it's the one who is able to do the most stuff.
this guy wins the thread!!
Sohei has the most shots by far.Zen archer has the most shots and can skip a significant amount of archer feats while having a free relatively weak ones for free on top of that. Ranger has highest potential nova but only against favored enemies and is solid all around. Inquisitor is the most balanced of the three and has bane; meaning the inquisitor will never have the most DPR of the three but he will be the most reliable across ANY situation. Because of the domains and inquisitions I give a VERY small edge to inquisitor but any of these three are solid.
I would recommend as a seasoned zen archer player that you not play human with it though. You have so many feats for free and being eliminated by flurry that you finally have a reason to play something else. Half orc is especially good thx to his big saves.
Shoei has the most shots...somewhere around level 15. Maybe not quite that high but I remember someone doing a comparison between the output of a zen archer versus a sohei and it wasn't until sometime after level 10 that the sohei was able to outclass the zen archer. Mostly due to the required archery feats and having no way to gain early access and 3/4 BAB slowing them down.
Inquisitor with slayer archetype from ACG.
You will get bonus archer feats from ranger, slayer bonus on hit and damage unlimited times, spells, and sneak attack as a complete bonus.
Inquisitors were already the most OP combat class, with this archetype youre op with combat tricks.
You will also get a domain, 6 kill points, all that inquisitor stuff, bonus teamwork feats, ability to shoot every time someone crits, and the list of opness go on...
Honestly that's probably worse than than a base inquisitor for an archer build. You give up all your judgements for Studied Target. The only benefit to Studied Target it that you can use it all day. The damage bonus scales more slowly and the to hit bonus scales equally.
Sneak Attack is a terrible trap on Archers. You have to be within 30ft, something archers typically avoid and you have to find a way to deny the enemy his dex because you can't flank with a bow. Most feats that work together to allow you to deny dex to your enemy are melee based. It does get the Slayer's Talents, but they come in way too late. You get the first at 8th level and the second at 16th level. I would need to double check what feats would be available that you would want at each to determine how useful it really is. I would also have to run the numbers to see how it played out over all, but I think the base Inquisitor is probably better. I will admit though, the Sanctified Slayer would have more lasting power than the base Inquisitor so if you have many (4+) combats a day it might be better. The Sanctified Slayer is also probably still better than a Slayer, mostly due to spellcasting.
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"best archer" depends on two things:
- What level dies the game go to?
- Do you use RAW for cover/soft cover?
These two factors have significance because of Improved Precise Shot.
If you are in a game that is capped at 12 (like PFS), and you are following the RAW for determining cover/soft cover, getting early access to Imp. Precise Shot becomes of paramount importance; meaning classes like Zen Archer & Ranger that skip the BAB +11 prerequisite, and can select the feat as early as 6th level, become clear favourites in the argument of "who's best".
Eating a -4 penalty to hit sucks... And it comes up all of the time.
I would say the most effective overall archer is the 1 fighter/1wizard/10EK/XAA/Xwiz build. It gets you pretty much the most versatility of anyone combined with top notch damage. You don't feel excluded later in the campaign either.
Everyone is focusing on the zen archer here because it's really simple to build and play, but his damage falls off at higher levels a bit and ultimately he faces the same issues all of them do with windwall and magic effects.
Meanwhile, the EK is basically god, dropping anti magic shells with imbue arrow turning high level wizards into severely disgruntled commoners. The most effective archer isn't the most damage, it's the one who is able to do the most stuff.
Wouldn't it have to be 1 Fighter/5 wizard before EK? Not the best archer for quite a few levels.
I would say the most effective overall archer is the 1 fighter/1wizard/10EK/XAA/Xwiz build. It gets you pretty much the most versatility of anyone combined with top notch damage. You don't feel excluded later in the campaign either.
Everyone is focusing on the zen archer here because it's really simple to build and play, but his damage falls off at higher levels a bit and ultimately he faces the same issues all of them do with windwall and magic effects.
Meanwhile, the EK is basically god, dropping anti magic shells with imbue arrow turning high level wizards into severely disgruntled commoners. The most effective archer isn't the most damage, it's the one who is able to do the most stuff.
Wouldn't it have to be 1 Fighter/5 wizard before EK? Not the best archer for quite a few levels.
There are a few certain races and classes which gain the equivalent of a 3rd level spell as an SLA, usually usable once per day. In a ruling that I strongly disagree with, its been decided that those characters gain a backdoor entrance into certain prestige classes without having to meet all of the normal pre-requisites.
There are a few certain races and classes which gain the equivalent of a 3rd level spell as an SLA, usually usable once per day. In a ruling that I strongly disagree with, its been decided that those characters gain a backdoor entrance into certain prestige classes without having to meet all of the normal pre-requisites.
Really!?!? Could you point me to that as I'd love to know. Thanks in advance.
BTW - I agree with you 100%.
Zen Archer - Gives you everything you need for archery. You can uses your feats and whatnot to have fun with RP or utility. This would be my pick.
Rangers - Still needs some feats invested but comes with 4 levels of spell casting and 6+INT skills per level.
Inquistor - Heavy feat investment but you get 6 levels of casting and bunch of class skills that give you great utility.
There are a few certain races and classes which gain the equivalent of a 3rd level spell as an SLA, usually usable once per day. In a ruling that I strongly disagree with, its been decided that those characters gain a backdoor entrance into certain prestige classes without having to meet all of the normal pre-requisites.
Really!?!? Could you point me to that as I'd love to know. Thanks in advance.
BTW - I agree with you 100%.
I think the Diviner-Scryer's 'Send Senses' ability counts. I know the Aasimar's Daylight ability does. There are others... its not something I've kept up with though because its not something I would ever allow in my games.
There are a few certain races and classes which gain the equivalent of a 3rd level spell as an SLA, usually usable once per day. In a ruling that I strongly disagree with, its been decided that those characters gain a backdoor entrance into certain prestige classes without having to meet all of the normal pre-requisites.
Really!?!? Could you point me to that as I'd love to know. Thanks in advance.
BTW - I agree with you 100%.
I found it in the FAQ here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qowBack from June of 2013...
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I would say the most effective overall archer is the 1 fighter/1wizard/10EK/XAA/Xwiz build. It gets you pretty much the most versatility of anyone combined with top notch damage. You don't feel excluded later in the campaign either.
Everyone is focusing on the zen archer here because it's really simple to build and play, but his damage falls off at higher levels a bit and ultimately he faces the same issues all of them do with windwall and magic effects.
Meanwhile, the EK is basically god, dropping anti magic shells with imbue arrow turning high level wizards into severely disgruntled commoners. The most effective archer isn't the most damage, it's the one who is able to do the most stuff.
Wouldn't it have to be 1 Fighter/5 wizard before EK? Not the best archer for quite a few levels.
This doesn't come online for most characters until 14th level as a Wizard 12 / Arcane Archer 2. Then, if you have a 22+Int, you can drop two AMF with Imbue Arrow per day. Hope you don't miss.
Sure, taking a level of Fighter qualifies you for EK as an Aasimar, but I don't think it's worth losing another caster level (-3!) for a BAB boost. To get to the AMF arrows part, you'd have to be an Aasimar (or whatever) Fighter 1 / EK 10 / AA 4. And then you get 1 per day.
I guess this is cool if you are starting a campaign at 15th level or something. Not going to hold a candle to a vanilla archer ranger until then.
I use the diviner scryer ability, you really want the ability to full attack in a surprise round with that build and you get it with diviner+familiar(valet)+Lookout, so taking scryer is just synergistic, plus you need the feat as a human.
I have to really disagree about the Zen Archer not being versatile. The monk is one of the most versatile classes in the game. People's biggest complaint about the monk is that it doesn't specialize. Add Qinggong and you can fill almost any role. You get more feats than a fighter until I think 10th level when the fighter finally catches up. When it comes to archery, I wouldn't really worry about damage, one class may do 150 points of damage while the Zen Archer only does 100, but when the baddies only have 50 hitpoints, does it really matter if they're dead or REALLY dead?