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My vote is for intentional. Most likely, the devs realize that the moment they release an Int/Con race, unless it is godawful beyond the stat bonuses, it will become the optimizer's go-to option for most arcane caster builds.
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Yeahhhhhhhhhhhh.....that's intentional.
we need a +Strength/+Dexterity Race with a Charisma Penalty and a +Strength/+Constitution Race with a Charisma penalty so we have decent martial races besides human because the human bonus feat is an advantage no race can compete with.
There's also no race with a Dex penalty period (at least in the hardcover books). Apparently everything in the world is as fast or faster than humans, even hulking-rock-monster races and dwarves. I always thought that was pretty weird. (Not that I'm suggesting dwarves need a DEX penalty, I love those guys).
We need? Who is "we"? Do you have a kernel in your pocket?
There's also no race with a Dex penalty period (at least in the hardcover books). Apparently everything in the world is as fast or faster than humans, even hulking-rock-monster races and dwarves. I always thought that was pretty weird. (Not that I'm suggesting dwarves need a DEX penalty, I love those guys).
i had to go re-check oreads because you said that, man thats strange.
we need a +Strength/+Dexterity Race with a Charisma Penalty and a +Strength/+Constitution Race with a Charisma penalty so we have decent martial races besides human because the human bonus feat is an advantage no race can compete with.Eh, the +5 to all saves against spells and SLA for dwarf disagrees with you.
In addition, Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are both superior to Humans for Bloodragers IMO. The save bonuses they get are much more valuable to the Bloodrager who doesn't really care about feats (and they lack the dwarf's charisma penalty).
Oreads make great Monks to boot, great stat spread and (if your GM is a jerk) exclusive access to Mighty Fist of the Earth.
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I'm 99.99523% sure folks are reading WAY too much into the racial stat mods.
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we need a +Strength/+Dexterity Race with a Charisma Penalty and a +Strength/+Constitution Race with a Charisma penalty so we have decent martial races besides human because the human bonus feat is an advantage no race can compete with.
[sarcasm]Only if we add those races to the list in reincarnate. Rerolling until you get to add the positive modifiers to our physicals stats while maintaining the original race modifiers for the mental stats would be so funny.[/sarcasm]
Ex asimaar turned in one of those races: +2 strength, +2 dexterity, +2 intelligence, +2 charisma or +2 strength, +2 constitution, +2 intelligence, +2 charisma.
There's also no race with a Dex penalty period (at least in the hardcover books). Apparently everything in the world is as fast or faster than humans, even hulking-rock-monster races and dwarves. I always thought that was pretty weird. (Not that I'm suggesting dwarves need a DEX penalty, I love those guys).
I would have done Dwarves with a DEX penalty instead of Charisma, myself.
My vote is for intentional. Most likely, the devs realize that the moment they release an Int/Con race, unless it is godawful beyond the stat bonuses, it will become the optimizer's go-to option for most arcane caster builds.
And this is a problem because ... ?
That's ... kind of a dumb philosophy.
My vote is for intentional. Most likely, the devs realize that the moment they release an Int/Con race, unless it is godawful beyond the stat bonuses, it will become the optimizer's go-to option for most arcane caster builds.
Eh... It wouldn't be much better than Dex/Int, and there are plenty of those. I'd rather see a Str/Int, though... For all those Slayer and Magus builds. :)
we need a +Strength/+Dexterity Race with a Charisma Penalty and a +Strength/+Constitution Race with a Charisma penalty so we have decent martial races besides human because the human bonus feat is an advantage no race can compete with.
Other than Paladin, I think Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Aasimar and Tiefling are superior choices for pretty much every martial class.
Perhaps. But I do not see a reason to have a race for every stat combination. I suppose they first design the theme for the race (Dwarves are stout, Elves are agile but frail, etc...) and then designed the stat bonuses/penalties around that.
No reason not to do it the other way as well.
I'd've thought CON and INT would have been perfect for the Android, myself.
we need a +Strength/+Dexterity Race with a Charisma Penalty and a +Strength/+Constitution Race with a Charisma penalty so we have decent martial races besides human because the human bonus feat is an advantage no race can compete with.Eh, the +5 to all saves against spells and SLA for dwarf disagrees with you.
And the alternate racial trait that gives +2 to will for half elves against anything also disagrees with you.
What? It is basically the same as iron will, and you can take iron will on top of it. That is about the equivalent of a feat. 12 wis/8 cha, and maybe a will save trait, and suddenly you make the wis based cleric look bad at early levels, and always leave room for the uninvested wizard to look bad at higher levels. With most martials, you only have to patch up their will saves for them to be effective.
But yeah, Paizo mostly seems obsessed with +Dex/+CHA/-WIS. I suppose it is fair enough. A bonus to most classes' dump stat allows you to dump it without becoming a neanderthal, the bonus to many classes' secondary stat with dex means you can skimp on points and still end up decently, and the penalty is not so bad when you saved up points in other places. It is a nice flexible set for anything that doesn't focus on wis.
I suppose they first design the theme for the race (Dwarves are stout, Elves are agile but frail, etc...) and then designed the stat bonuses/penalties around that.
Probably, but I don't think they're mutually exclusive... because it wouldn't be hard to justify a dex penalty or a strength bonus on a dwarf or a cha bonus on an elf or a con bonus or dex penalty for oreads.. etc
Chances are, yeah, you design a race then pick stat bonuses, but there's also a good chance that you can justify a lot of different combinations on a given race or ultimately have decisions that are a bit arbitrary.
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I would have done Dwarves with a DEX penalty instead of Charisma, myself.
I'd be fine with keeping both options.
Dwarves could be divided into a warrior group, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, and a crafts group, +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Dex. The crafters are more common in the dwarven cities, and maintain the dwarven supremacy at metallurgy, weaponsmithing, armory, etc. Out in the world, people are more likely to meet the warrior types, as they are more likely to operate outside of clan holdings.
I prefer the idea of dwarves having a Dex penalty and an Int bonus (as well as their standard Con bonus), but I also prefer keeping the option of the +Wis/-Cha open for those who prefer that stat array.
I'd've thought CON and INT would have been perfect for the Android, myself.Personally I think GNome should have been a Con/int race.
I agree. This way they would be more than a poor man's Halfling.
I agree. This way they would be more than a poor man's Halfling.I'd've thought CON and INT would have been perfect for the Android, myself.Personally I think GNome should have been a Con/int race.
Same here. Considering how often gnomes are described as inventors & exceptional crafters, this would make SO much more sense.
Not to mention that pre-3rd edition, Gnomes were +Int and -Wis, so that would have precedent.
What doesn't make sense to me with Gnomes is that they would get a CON bonus, to begin with. Dwarves are obviously stout, but have you seen the drawing of the common Gnome in the Core book?
+INT, +CHA, -WIS makes the most sense to me for Gnomes.
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What doesn't make sense to me with Gnomes is that they would get a CON bonus, to begin with. Dwarves are obviously stout, but have you seen the drawing of the common Gnome in the Core book?
+INT, +CHA, -WIS makes the most sense to me for Gnomes.
+Con seems like a holdover from the stouter Gnomes of earlier editions (and seems even less on-theme now that they have ties to the fey, the creature type with the smallest HD).
There's also the muddle that Gnomes have been very different over different editions. Pre-3rd edition, and once again in 5th edition, they had high Intelligence and were associated, through the Dragonlance Tinker Gnomes, with clockwork, crafting and contraptions. In 3.5, for a few brief years, it was 'favored class Bard' and, while they didn't have a Charisma bonus, that certainly would have felt appropriate. And now they are associated with the fey and nature, more like the 'Forest Gnomes' of previous editions, and less like the 'Rock Gnomes' (aka, Dwarf-lite).
As I tend to prefer not to close doors on flavors already introduced, I'd go for the Gnome attribute modifier to be +2 Intelligence *or* +2 Wisdom *or* +2 Charisma, and no physical attribute modifiers at all. They'd be stronger (wiry little bodies!) than Halflings and most other Small races, but not as nimble as many of them (Halfling, Goblin, Kobold) tend to be, and with a completely average Con score. Unlike Elves or Dwarves, who may have subraces or castes or different attribute arrays because of being forsaken or Sovyrian or whatever, Gnomes would have no genetic component to their attribute bonus. Two gnomish tinkers with +2 Intelligence might have a kid who has a +2 to Wisdom and goes into Druidism, or +2 Charisma and takes up inspiring oratory as a wandering Bard or awakens a knack for fey Sorcery.
So folk who want to play Gimble the 3.5 Iconic Gnome Bard, can do so with a shiny +2 Charisma modifier, while those who want to play Nebbin, the 3.0 Iconic Gnome Illusionist, can have their +2 Intelligence, and those who want to play Lini, the Pathfinder Iconic Gnome Druid, can have a +2 Wisdom.
No burning need to close any of those doors.
Some gnomes can be tinker-y, or book-totin' arcanists, others can sing and perform and practice fey sorcery, and yet others can get all woodsy and spiritual and turn into bears and eat faces. Not even a need for sub-races like 'Rock Gnome' and 'Forest Gnome,' or City Mouse and Country Mouse.
Yes, because a race that gets an obsession with collecting items as a race feature is obviously charismatic and drop dead sexy. In fact goblins should be getting a charisma bonus because they "light my fire".