Confused over spell level

[Pyronous Rath]

Looking at the tool tips for a few spells of level 1 and then the level 2 version of the same spell has me confused as to the benefit of the level 2 spells over the level 1 spells. Neither the damage modifier or any other aspect of the spell is different between the level 1 and 2?

[Nightdrifter]

The difference between different levels of any attack (Attack/Cantrip/Orison) is the number of keywords they have. The base damage a spell does is 40+5 per matched minor keyword (max 4)+20 per matched major keyword (max 2). The progression in terms of keywords (last I saw) is: minor(1), minor(2), minor(3), major(4), minor(5), major(6).

The keywords on an attack are compared against your weapon's keywords. Matching keywords is essentially just 'how many do these have in common?'. If you're using a starter weapon which has only a single keyword (which usually matches the first keyword on the attack) then getting a higher level attack won't benefit you as all that matters is common keywords.

starter weapon + high level attack = high level weapon + starter attack = minimal matching (ie. low dmg)

You need both high end weapons and high end attacks to do top notch damage.

[Pyronous Rath]

So when browsing spells to train the tool tip reflects what the spell would do with your currently equipped wand/staff? If that is the case then since I have no staff all the staff active feats would have a dmg modifier of 0 no?

[Nightdrifter]

I don't think the tooltips are smart enough yet to reflect how they would work with your current weapon and (probably) show the same regardless of what you have equipped. It's up to you to notice matching keywords, though behind the scenes the game will match them when determining damage. I've been building keyword matching into my calculator to hopefully make it easier.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

Smart tooltips are a bit away yet. For now, it's best to work with the spreadsheets, pfo.pathfinderwiki.com, and asking around.

[Pyronous Rath]

If the tool tip is only reflecting the values of the spell with the appropriate level implement/weapon then I refer to my original question.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

The tooltip tells you the basic characteristics of the attack, when used with the correct +0 item. For each additional +1 on the item, you can match more keywords of an appropriate attack and the item, and get a flat damage boost for each keyword matched.

[DeciusBrutus]

The bonus to damage is to base damage, which isn't displayed anywhere.

[KoTC Edam Neadenil]

Here is a simple rule for alpha.

If you are using a basic non-crafted bow/sword/wand/staff/etc then you will get no advantage training any attack or spell beyond level 1.

The time to train level 2 and higher spells attacks etc is when you have a T2 or +1 T2 weapon/wand/staff or better.

[<kabal> Bunibuni]

Very good to know.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:

The time to train level 2 and higher spells attacks etc is when you have a T2 or +1 T2 weapon/wand/staff or better.

Could you please tell me your reasoning on not recommending buying level 2 Feats when one has a +1 Tier 1 item? I freely acknowledge there's a lot about the keyword system I'm still trying to learn.

[KoTC Edam Neadenil]

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:

The time to train level 2 and higher spells attacks etc is when you have a T2 or +1 T2 weapon/wand/staff or better.

Could you please tell me your reasoning on not recommending buying level 2 Feats when one has a +1 Tier 1 item? I freely acknowledge there's a lot about the keyword system I'm still trying to learn.

yep, its a typo, it was meant to read T2 or +1 T1

Point is people leveling spells or attacks to 5 with basic weapons is silly.

[Nihimon]

Pyronous Rath wrote:

If the tool tip is only reflecting the values of the spell with the appropriate level implement/weapon then I refer to my original question.

All of the statistical information about Attacks (Cantrips, etc.) stays exactly the same at every level. What the additional level gives you is more possible Keyword matches. Each Keyword match will give you a damage boost. So, you don't get extra damage just from training a higher level, or just from getting a better weapon; you have to have both a higher level version and a better weapon to see the damage increase.

For example:

The first two Keywords on Blinding Pattern are Arcane and Mental. Level 1 only has Arcane, and then you get Mental at Level 2.

The first two Upgrade Keywords on an Apprentice's Charged Staff are Arcane and Volatile. This is the Staff that gets dropped as "starter gear" off low level mobs. The basic version of this Staff has the Arcane Keyword, but you need to get a +1 Version to add the Volatile Keyword.

So, an Apprentice's Charged Staff will work just fine for Blinding Pattern Level 1, because the Cantrip only tries to match Arcane, and the Staff has Arcane.

However, if you buy Blinding Pattern Level 2, you get the Mental Keyword, not Volatile. So a +1 Charged Staff won't give you any benefit at all, but a +1 Psychic Staff (that has the first two Keywords being Arcane and Mental) would give you a noticeable damage increase.